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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257332 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

Poll: Which team thread should I participate in?

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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 19:20 - Dec 20 with 2853 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 18:27 - Dec 20 by WeWereZombies

'UN vote delayed again
The expected UN Security Council vote on Gaza has been delayed again.

The BBC's Nada Tawfik at the UN says she has just seen diplomats leaving and there's been an announcement that the vote has been pushed to Thursday.'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67768062 at 18:22

Is this a sign (depressing as yet another delay is) that a breakthrough is, and I do not use the word in jest, imminent ? Nevertheless, even as the hope is given as talks continue and we can see that there must be a reason so expect a bit more give and take, innocent lives are being lost with every minute, hour and day that passes.


https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-battles-hamas-streets-gaza-city

Hard to see light at the end of the tunnel - Hamas reportedly will not agree to any temporary ceasefire, only a permanent one. On the other hand Israeli policy is still ‘war until Hamas are eradicated’. Even with their Western allies becoming increasingly critical of their conduct, it’s seems Israel are determined to continue their catastrophic campaign.
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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 19:55 - Dec 20 with 2817 viewsWeWereZombies

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 19:20 - Dec 20 by SuperKieranMcKenna

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-battles-hamas-streets-gaza-city

Hard to see light at the end of the tunnel - Hamas reportedly will not agree to any temporary ceasefire, only a permanent one. On the other hand Israeli policy is still ‘war until Hamas are eradicated’. Even with their Western allies becoming increasingly critical of their conduct, it’s seems Israel are determined to continue their catastrophic campaign.


I think this is what the United States are pressing for:

'He was speaking as UN diplomats scrambled to avoid another US veto on a ceasefire resolution.

"I hear no-one demanding of Hamas that it stop hiding behind civilians, lay down its arms and surrender,” he said. “This would be over tomorrow if that happened.”

“How can it be that there are no demands made of the aggressor and only demands of the victim,” he added, stressing that the Hamas attack on 7 October started the war.'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67768062 at 18:02

It looks like a solution that pleases no one, but if Hamas surrendering means that they continue as a political force in Gaza then Netanyahu has failed (and surely will have to stand down and then he tried for his misdemeanours), Arab militants see their potency blunted and the United States comes out of things looking like the greatest diplomatic act ever. But I doubt that will happen, so what level of compromise is needed is anybody's guess.

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 09:15 - Dec 21 with 2729 viewsDJR

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 18:27 - Dec 20 by WeWereZombies

'UN vote delayed again
The expected UN Security Council vote on Gaza has been delayed again.

The BBC's Nada Tawfik at the UN says she has just seen diplomats leaving and there's been an announcement that the vote has been pushed to Thursday.'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67768062 at 18:22

Is this a sign (depressing as yet another delay is) that a breakthrough is, and I do not use the word in jest, imminent ? Nevertheless, even as the hope is given as talks continue and we can see that there must be a reason so expect a bit more give and take, innocent lives are being lost with every minute, hour and day that passes.


The fact that it has taken four days to accommodate the US, and so prevent the veto, suggests to me that we will end up with a resolution (if indeed we do) that is pretty anodyne.

It's a bit like Cameron's call for a sustainable ceasefire, which really only means one when Hamas has been destroyed and Israel is content.
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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 09:18 - Dec 21 with 2711 viewsWeWereZombies

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 09:15 - Dec 21 by DJR

The fact that it has taken four days to accommodate the US, and so prevent the veto, suggests to me that we will end up with a resolution (if indeed we do) that is pretty anodyne.

It's a bit like Cameron's call for a sustainable ceasefire, which really only means one when Hamas has been destroyed and Israel is content.


No, a Hamas surrender is not the total destruction of Hamas. The Arab nations would be the ones pushing for a veto in that scenario.

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 10:11 - Dec 21 with 2672 viewsDJR

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 09:18 - Dec 21 by WeWereZombies

No, a Hamas surrender is not the total destruction of Hamas. The Arab nations would be the ones pushing for a veto in that scenario.


Yes, I was wrong to say the destruction of Hamas. What I should have said is that a sustainable ceasefire means one which comes about when Israel is content.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2023 10:48]
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(No subject) (n/t) on 16:24 - Dec 21 with 2583 viewsChorleyBoy

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 10:11 - Dec 21 by DJR

Yes, I was wrong to say the destruction of Hamas. What I should have said is that a sustainable ceasefire means one which comes about when Israel is content.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2023 10:48]


https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-778367

Hmm

I hope this is not Israel being content.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2023 16:28]
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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 07:01 - Dec 22 with 2462 viewsWeWereZombies

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 10:11 - Dec 21 by DJR

Yes, I was wrong to say the destruction of Hamas. What I should have said is that a sustainable ceasefire means one which comes about when Israel is content.
[Post edited 21 Dec 2023 10:48]


I am a little more despondent about a permanent truce / ceasefire / end of the war this morning. As well as the doubt that Netanyahu will accept a surrender by Hamas that would mean they still exist (because then his political career will cease to exist) the latest restatement of their position by Hamas is:

'In a statement, Hamas said: "There is a Palestinian national decision that there should be no talk about prisoners or exchange deals except after a full cessation of aggression."'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67797747

Once again the FUBAR element of viewing this conflict in conventional terms is thrown starkly into focus by Hamas presenting themselves as able to make decisions on behalf of all Palestinians when they do not even have majority support in Gaza (granted it appears to be more likely as the war drags on) let alone the West Bank and the wider diaspora. And it plays right into the hands of Israeli extremists (another group that appears to have grown in numbers quite rapidly this year.)

Also, even if Hamas were wiped out, that would not be the end of it. From the same report:

'Islamic Jihad, a smaller group in the Gaza Strip, is among those known to also be holding Israeli hostages.'

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 11:45 - Dec 22 with 2398 viewsbrazil1982

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 07:01 - Dec 22 by WeWereZombies

I am a little more despondent about a permanent truce / ceasefire / end of the war this morning. As well as the doubt that Netanyahu will accept a surrender by Hamas that would mean they still exist (because then his political career will cease to exist) the latest restatement of their position by Hamas is:

'In a statement, Hamas said: "There is a Palestinian national decision that there should be no talk about prisoners or exchange deals except after a full cessation of aggression."'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67797747

Once again the FUBAR element of viewing this conflict in conventional terms is thrown starkly into focus by Hamas presenting themselves as able to make decisions on behalf of all Palestinians when they do not even have majority support in Gaza (granted it appears to be more likely as the war drags on) let alone the West Bank and the wider diaspora. And it plays right into the hands of Israeli extremists (another group that appears to have grown in numbers quite rapidly this year.)

Also, even if Hamas were wiped out, that would not be the end of it. From the same report:

'Islamic Jihad, a smaller group in the Gaza Strip, is among those known to also be holding Israeli hostages.'


A recent survey (14 November, AWRAD, based in Ramallah) showed positive support for Hamas was 86% in the WB, lower in the Gaza at 58%. It also showed positive support for the attacks of 7 October, of 82% in the WB and 63% in the Gaza.

Support for Islamic Jihad is very high in the WB.
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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 12:06 - Dec 22 with 2377 viewspositivity

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 11:45 - Dec 22 by brazil1982

A recent survey (14 November, AWRAD, based in Ramallah) showed positive support for Hamas was 86% in the WB, lower in the Gaza at 58%. It also showed positive support for the attacks of 7 October, of 82% in the WB and 63% in the Gaza.

Support for Islamic Jihad is very high in the WB.


that's concerning, wonder what the position was before israel started the bombing/invasion?

Poll: do you do judo and/or do you do voodoo?

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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 12:17 - Dec 22 with 2357 viewsDJR

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 11:45 - Dec 22 by brazil1982

A recent survey (14 November, AWRAD, based in Ramallah) showed positive support for Hamas was 86% in the WB, lower in the Gaza at 58%. It also showed positive support for the attacks of 7 October, of 82% in the WB and 63% in the Gaza.

Support for Islamic Jihad is very high in the WB.


A poll with a larger sample size reported in Haaretz (an Israeli newspaper) on 13 December found the following. It had a margin of error of 4%. The error margin was one percentage point higher than usual because of disruptions caused by the mass displacement of residents during the Israel-Hamas war.

"44 percent in the West Bank said they supported Hamas, up from just 12 percent in September. In Gaza, Hamas had 42 percent support, up slightly from 38 percent three months ago."
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 14:10]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:17 - Dec 22 with 2311 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:24 - Dec 18 by DJR

While I abhor antisemitism, I also dislike false accusations of antisemitism which appear to be designed to shift or close down debate or deflect criticism.

Here, from today's BBC news live feed, is an example.

"The group Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of using starvation as a "weapon of war" in the ongoing conflict, saying the Israeli military has been blocking the delivery of water, food and fuel as well as "wilfully impeding humanitarian assistance".

According to international laws, starvation should not be used in warfare as a tactic.

Israel's foreign ministry spokesperson, Lior Haiat, branded HRW "antisemitic" in comments made to AFP news agency.

"Human Rights Watch... did not condemn the attack on Israeli citizens and the massacre of October 7 and has no moral basis to talk about what's going on in Gaza if they turn a blind eye to the suffering and the human rights of Israelis," he said.

HRW has previously said Hamas has committed war crimes, and has put out statements on the 7 October attack."

Here are a couple of examples of HRW calling things out.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel/palestine-videos-hamas-led-attacks-ve

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/19/hamas-islamic-jihad-holding-hostages-war-cri
[Post edited 18 Dec 2023 17:18]


This weaponising of antisemitism and these false and fake accusations of antisemitism really do need to be called out as strongly as possible.
Clearly in this case antisemitism is being used to close down criticism of Isreals appalling behaviour in Gaza.
This blurring of the lines between genuine racism/antisemitism and made up accusations to stifle debate is so dangerous to any of us belonging to minority groups and beyond and needs to be called out and properly addressed
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:30 - Dec 22 with 2263 viewspositivity

if you want to send a few quid to doctors without borders, consider this:-

https://www.stereogum.com/2246100/massive-attack-fontaines-d-c-young-fathers-ann

Poll: do you do judo and/or do you do voodoo?

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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 17:29 - Dec 22 with 2218 viewsChorleyBoy

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 11:45 - Dec 22 by brazil1982

A recent survey (14 November, AWRAD, based in Ramallah) showed positive support for Hamas was 86% in the WB, lower in the Gaza at 58%. It also showed positive support for the attacks of 7 October, of 82% in the WB and 63% in the Gaza.

Support for Islamic Jihad is very high in the WB.


I'd appreciate a link to this survey if anyone can dig out the original findings.
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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 23:19 - Dec 22 with 2131 viewsbrazil1982

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 17:29 - Dec 22 by ChorleyBoy

I'd appreciate a link to this survey if anyone can dig out the original findings.


https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-A
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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 23:26 - Dec 22 with 2109 viewsbrazil1982

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 23:19 - Dec 22 by brazil1982

https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-A


Also yhis link https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20155/palestinians-support-hamas
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:27 - Dec 22 with 2107 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:17 - Dec 22 by leitrimblue

This weaponising of antisemitism and these false and fake accusations of antisemitism really do need to be called out as strongly as possible.
Clearly in this case antisemitism is being used to close down criticism of Isreals appalling behaviour in Gaza.
This blurring of the lines between genuine racism/antisemitism and made up accusations to stifle debate is so dangerous to any of us belonging to minority groups and beyond and needs to be called out and properly addressed


We were assured this would never happen. Colour me shocked.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:37 - Dec 22 with 2091 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:27 - Dec 22 by BanksterDebtSlave

We were assured this would never happen. Colour me shocked.


It has been happening throughout. And even on this board on occasion.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 06:35 - Dec 23 with 2016 viewsStokieBlue

60% of Gaza's infrastructure is now destroyed, mostly in the north but the south is starting to head the same way.

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/MAPS/movajdladpa/#bombardme

I heard another news item which stated there has been so much damage that the colour of Gaza when viewed from space has changed.

Disproportionate doesn't even begin to cover it.

SB

Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula

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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 08:47 - Dec 23 with 1963 viewsWeWereZombies

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 23:19 - Dec 22 by brazil1982

https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-A


Number of people polled: 688

Sorry, but I will let that one pass me by.

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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Support for Israel within the United States is much lower than I thought on 08:54 - Dec 23 with 1948 viewsWeWereZombies

A decent, if disheartening seven minute read from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67788359

'Critics of the American strategy say the US has been so cautious that it is effectively complicit in Israel's war. They say it should have more forcefully called for Israel to curtail a disproportionate military campaign and used the threat to withhold or set conditions on massive amounts of American military aid to rein in Israeli excess.

But Aaron David Miller, who worked as a Middle East adviser in the State Department for some 25 years, calls the notion that the US could pressure Israel to change its policy in this case "magical thinking."

"The battlefield dynamic is beyond our capacity to control, let alone micromanage," he says, noting that Israel and Hamas are pursuing irreconcilable goals.'

'In the meantime the Americans are contending with growing international isolation.

Nowhere is this more evident than at the United Nations, where the US has opposed overwhelming demands for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire.

This week, with the UN warning of famine in Gaza, the US allowed the passage of a second Security Council resolution calling for more humanitarian access to Gaza. It did so after negotiating intensely to change language on the suspension of hostilities and mechanisms to monitor and speed up aid delivery.

The administration wants no suggestion of a ceasefire that would constrain Israel's ability to destroy Hamas's leadership and military capability.

But even some allies have been outspoken about this approach.

"The United States is losing respect, it's losing credibility as a powerful nation," former Irish President Mary Robinson, speaking on behalf of a group of global leaders known as The Elders, said in a recent interview on RTE News. "The United States has called for restraint, but [the Israeli government] isn't listening."'

'Mr Biden is also facing growing domestic pressure to take a stronger line against Israel. In a New York Times public opinion survey this week, only 33% of registered American voters approved of the president's handling of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. A plurality, 44% to 39%, said Israel should end its military campaign.'

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 09:01 - Dec 23 with 1933 viewsDJR

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 08:47 - Dec 23 by WeWereZombies

Number of people polled: 688

Sorry, but I will let that one pass me by.


This is the poll that I mentioned, which has a sample size of 1231 adults and is said to have a margin of error of 4%.

https://pcpsr.org/en/node/961

Perhaps its key finding is the following.

Support for Hamas has more than tripled in the West Bank compared to three months ago. In the Gaza Strip, support for Hamas increased but not significantly. Despite the increase in its popularity, the majority in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip does not support Hamas. It is worth noting that support for Hamas usually rises temporarily during or immediately after a war and then returns to the previous level several months after the end of the war.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:13 - Dec 23 with 1897 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 06:35 - Dec 23 by StokieBlue

60% of Gaza's infrastructure is now destroyed, mostly in the north but the south is starting to head the same way.

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/MAPS/movajdladpa/#bombardme

I heard another news item which stated there has been so much damage that the colour of Gaza when viewed from space has changed.

Disproportionate doesn't even begin to cover it.

SB


From observation and also an article I posted on here quoting Israeli intelligence sources, it is clear that destruction of infrastructure is one of the main aims of the campaign.

As it is, I was listening the World Service last night where a report (linked below) by Forensic Architecture about the destruction of medical infrastructure was discussed. Forensic Architecture is based at Goldsmiths College and has carried out joint investigations with Bellingcat. It was founded by, and is still led by, an Israeli.

https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/destruction-of-medical-infrastru

This is the key conclusion.

"The results of this analysis suggest a repeated and consistent pattern of attacks on hospitals across the region, defined by attacks in surrounding areas, direct targeting, siege, and occupation. The impact of this systematic and widespread pattern of destruction of medical infrastructure and forcible population transfer has put 28 hospitals in Gaza out of service, including all hospitals in the north of the strip."

When it was put to the spokesman for Forensic Architecture that Israel had alleged that Al-Shifa hospital was a command and control centre, he said that no proper evidence of this had been produced (despite it now being occupied by Israel) and that any supposed tunnels found were outside the hospital building.

From what I can gather, the destruction of hospitals in the north is also designed to make the north uninhabitable and so force residents south, where things don't really look any safer.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 9:20]
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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 09:31 - Dec 23 with 1860 viewsbrazil1982

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 08:47 - Dec 23 by WeWereZombies

Number of people polled: 688

Sorry, but I will let that one pass me by.


Counter that then, with a poll that backs your claim that Hamas does not have a majority of support in the WB or the Gaza.
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Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 09:41 - Dec 23 with 1830 viewsDJR

Let us hope that the United States can find a reason to vote for ceasefire on 09:31 - Dec 23 by brazil1982

Counter that then, with a poll that backs your claim that Hamas does not have a majority of support in the WB or the Gaza.


See my post at 9.01 concerning what I would regard as a more reliable poll, and note that support for Hamas tends to go up at times of conflict.

And this is what I posted yesterday about the poll.

"44 percent in the West Bank said they supported Hamas, up from just 12 percent in September. In Gaza, Hamas had 42 percent support, up slightly from 38 percent three months ago."
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 9:43]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:07 - Dec 23 with 1803 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:13 - Dec 23 by DJR

From observation and also an article I posted on here quoting Israeli intelligence sources, it is clear that destruction of infrastructure is one of the main aims of the campaign.

As it is, I was listening the World Service last night where a report (linked below) by Forensic Architecture about the destruction of medical infrastructure was discussed. Forensic Architecture is based at Goldsmiths College and has carried out joint investigations with Bellingcat. It was founded by, and is still led by, an Israeli.

https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/destruction-of-medical-infrastru

This is the key conclusion.

"The results of this analysis suggest a repeated and consistent pattern of attacks on hospitals across the region, defined by attacks in surrounding areas, direct targeting, siege, and occupation. The impact of this systematic and widespread pattern of destruction of medical infrastructure and forcible population transfer has put 28 hospitals in Gaza out of service, including all hospitals in the north of the strip."

When it was put to the spokesman for Forensic Architecture that Israel had alleged that Al-Shifa hospital was a command and control centre, he said that no proper evidence of this had been produced (despite it now being occupied by Israel) and that any supposed tunnels found were outside the hospital building.

From what I can gather, the destruction of hospitals in the north is also designed to make the north uninhabitable and so force residents south, where things don't really look any safer.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 9:20]


You mean to say they still haven't found it.
The shocks just keep on coming!

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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