| Today's trolling Guardian article. 08:34 - Mar 12 with 4314 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/12/keir-starmer-labour-poor-s
'In many ways, this is old ground for the Labour party. When George Osborne framed post-2010 austerity as a means to fix Labour’s “out of control” benefits bill, the leadership at the time – first Ed Miliband and then interim leader Harriet Harman – adopted the narrative with the air of a sinner looking to repent, culminating in the party abstaining from the vote on the government’s toxic welfare bill. In 2015, Reeves – then shadow work and pensions secretary – famously declared Labour was “not the party of people on benefits”.
Such capitulation is in part a rational response to a media ecosystem in Britain that enables a small group of rightwing newspapers to shape Labour’s policy agenda, painting the party as economically unsound the minute it attempts to make ordinary people’s lives slightly better. But it is also a trap of the party’s own making. Starmer’s narrow emphasis on “fiscal responsibility” – and Reeves’s unnecessary commitment to the government’s flawed fiscal rules – enables the Conservatives to set the agenda and buys into, rather than challenges, established wisdom on the legitimacy of public spending. It is not a coincidence that the spending that is deemed irresponsible is typically for the benefits system or wider welfare state. Tax breaks for a CEO’s investment portfolio are prudent, while funding for a disabled person’s care worker is wasteful.
We see this again when Labour parrots the government’s economic language. In response to the budget, Starmer declared “the national credit card is maxed out” while Reeves opted for the old chestnut, “There’s no magic money tree.” Adopting such framing is not just economically illiterate, it fences Labour in for how a future government can raise funds and spend them. Before you know it, Reeves is announcing that – now that Hunt has taken her non-dom tax revenue policy – she intends to pay for the NHS and school breakfasts through (wait for it) “future savings to public spending”. Who needs a wealth tax when you can squeeze councils facing bankruptcy?'
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 11:22 - Mar 12 with 1273 views | lowhouseblue |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 11:17 - Mar 12 by WeWereZombies |
True but you know that was not what DanTheMan was referring to, billions that a more responsible administration would have spent wisely got wasted on defective PPE equipment and the contracts awarded for the supply of that equipment were dubious to say the least. [Post edited 12 Mar 2024 11:19]
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yes but even that is small compared to the total government spend. covid is actually an example of spending having huge and very broadly distributed benefits. there was fraud and there were bad decisions, but equally i'm not all that surprised that there was some waste during an unprecedented national emergency. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 11:26 - Mar 12 with 1251 views | DanTheMan |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 11:12 - Mar 12 by lowhouseblue |
i'm not sure that's right. the £70bn was the cost of furlough - which was very widespread and particularly went to people in the lower paid service sector. the benefit of the £70bn furlough spend was widely distributed. any excess profits / fraud that occurred was small compared to the cost of furlough, even smaller relative to total public expenditure on covid at some £350bn. |
But then those people spent that on their mortgages, rent, essentials etc.
So my point is more that we injected a lot of money into the economy and a tiny subsection of society ended up getting more wealthy during the pandemic. |  |
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 12:16 - Mar 12 with 1199 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 11:26 - Mar 12 by DanTheMan |
But then those people spent that on their mortgages, rent, essentials etc.
So my point is more that we injected a lot of money into the economy and a tiny subsection of society ended up getting more wealthy during the pandemic. |
Strange isn't it how money seems to have this habit of trickling up not down! | |
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 13:43 - Mar 12 with 1158 views | DJR |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 10:20 - Mar 12 by bluejacko |
How is it is forgotten how much the pandemic actually cost the UK!£70B alone on furlough and there were no complaints when that was being paid! Anywhere between £310/410B was the cost of closing down the country for 2 yrs. don’t forget Labour wanted to extend that as well! So really it is no surprise that the country is in a mess and it doesn’t matter who’s in power that money has to be repaid somehow. |
The real damage in terms of destruction of public services, increase in debt and lack of growth occurred under austerity and before the pandemic.
Austerity didn't cut the debt (or "fix the roof") as the following up to 2019 illustrates.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/281792/national-debt-as-percentage-of-gdp-in
This takes things further up to date and shows the pandemic and Ukraine didn't dramatically make things worse.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/282841/debt-as-gdp-uk/ [Post edited 12 Mar 2024 13:53]
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:07 - Mar 12 with 1124 views | Aviator |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 11:26 - Mar 12 by DanTheMan |
But then those people spent that on their mortgages, rent, essentials etc.
So my point is more that we injected a lot of money into the economy and a tiny subsection of society ended up getting more wealthy during the pandemic. |
No they didn't. They spent it on luxuries. They were stuck at home with the money burning a hole in their pocket. Any business not in the hospitality sector was raking it in. Hot tub anyone? |  | | |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:13 - Mar 12 with 1115 views | DanTheMan |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:07 - Mar 12 by Aviator |
No they didn't. They spent it on luxuries. They were stuck at home with the money burning a hole in their pocket. Any business not in the hospitality sector was raking it in. Hot tub anyone? |
Other than anecdotes, do you have anything to back that up? Because even thinking about it for more than one minute it doesn't make much sense. If you're on furlough and not working, how are you paying all the bills? I'm not going to argue that nobody took the piss but it makes no sense that everyone spent all of the furlough on luxuries.
And anyway, it doesn't change my point in that ultimately they don't have that money and there were only a few wealthy individuals and businesses that ended up better off from the pandemic. | |
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:16 - Mar 12 with 1102 views | Aviator |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 09:02 - Mar 12 by leitrimblue |
What is the point of Starmers Labour Party if it won't stand up for poor, sick or disabled people?
Great question |
The clue is in the title. Labour.
I really reckon this could be a watershed moment if Labour get this right. They need to scrap these stupid fiscal rules, revise the tax and benefits system to make work pay. Borrow to invest and really get this country moving. My fear is that they won't get a big enough majority.
All the above really should be natural Tory ground, but they have had their chance and not delivered. | | | |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:19 - Mar 12 with 1094 views | WeWereZombies |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:16 - Mar 12 by Aviator |
The clue is in the title. Labour.
I really reckon this could be a watershed moment if Labour get this right. They need to scrap these stupid fiscal rules, revise the tax and benefits system to make work pay. Borrow to invest and really get this country moving. My fear is that they won't get a big enough majority.
All the above really should be natural Tory ground, but they have had their chance and not delivered. |
Could you expand on 'stupid fiscal rules' please ? |  |
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:22 - Mar 12 with 1091 views | Aviator |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:13 - Mar 12 by DanTheMan |
Other than anecdotes, do you have anything to back that up? Because even thinking about it for more than one minute it doesn't make much sense. If you're on furlough and not working, how are you paying all the bills? I'm not going to argue that nobody took the piss but it makes no sense that everyone spent all of the furlough on luxuries.
And anyway, it doesn't change my point in that ultimately they don't have that money and there were only a few wealthy individuals and businesses that ended up better off from the pandemic. |
Yep, I know enough businesses (including my own) that had record years during covid. Huge increases in sales. Look at the supermarkets, garden centres, hardware stores, construction. People had literally nothing to spend their money on. They were bored with time on their hands. There was also a massive supply crunch. | | | |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:29 - Mar 12 with 1076 views | Aviator |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:19 - Mar 12 by WeWereZombies |
Could you expand on 'stupid fiscal rules' please ? |
Yes - the OBR rules for government debt to be falling as a percentage of GDP in the final year of a five-year forecast and for the annual budget deficit not to exceed 3% of GDP. These are totally arbitrary.
Nobody's suggesting we need to go "full Truss" but she had the right idea. Just tried to do it all in one day without explaining it to the markets. Idiot! | | | |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:57 - Mar 12 with 1045 views | leitrimblue |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:16 - Mar 12 by Aviator |
The clue is in the title. Labour.
I really reckon this could be a watershed moment if Labour get this right. They need to scrap these stupid fiscal rules, revise the tax and benefits system to make work pay. Borrow to invest and really get this country moving. My fear is that they won't get a big enough majority.
All the above really should be natural Tory ground, but they have had their chance and not delivered. |
So Labour are proposing to create millions of well payed rewarding jobs for poor, sick or disabled people? Must have missed that |  | | |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:58 - Mar 12 with 1037 views | leitrimblue |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 14:22 - Mar 12 by Aviator |
Yep, I know enough businesses (including my own) that had record years during covid. Huge increases in sales. Look at the supermarkets, garden centres, hardware stores, construction. People had literally nothing to spend their money on. They were bored with time on their hands. There was also a massive supply crunch. |
Your business isn't Hot Tub King is it by any chance? | | | |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 15:04 - Mar 12 with 1014 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 09:59 - Mar 12 by DJR |
That's because austerity was a disaster in bringing down debt and in its effect on growth, but our tax take is still lower in percentage terms than other successful western European countries.
In any event, it's all a false economy because god help you if you ever fall ill, become disabled or need social care. And by all accounts, lack of investment in the NHS these last 14 years is a cause of the large number of people not able to work, something that is not an issue in other countries with a properly functioning health service. [Post edited 12 Mar 2024 10:01]
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Austerity was never meant to bring down debt. The banks bailout alone guaranteed that the debt would continue to rise.
Austerity was implemented to bring down the deficit. Which it did. |  |
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 15:47 - Mar 12 with 965 views | DJR |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 15:04 - Mar 12 by GlasgowBlue |
Austerity was never meant to bring down debt. The banks bailout alone guaranteed that the debt would continue to rise.
Austerity was implemented to bring down the deficit. Which it did. |
Andy Haldane, who was chief economist at the Bank of England at the time, put it thus in an article in the FT last year.
"Over a decade ago, in pursuit of lower debt, the UK enacted fiscal austerity. This ruptured growth and was self-defeating for debt."
And however you dress it up, it was a disaster. [Post edited 12 Mar 2024 16:09]
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 16:07 - Mar 12 with 926 views | DJR |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 09:59 - Mar 12 by DJR |
That's because austerity was a disaster in bringing down debt and in its effect on growth, but our tax take is still lower in percentage terms than other successful western European countries.
In any event, it's all a false economy because god help you if you ever fall ill, become disabled or need social care. And by all accounts, lack of investment in the NHS these last 14 years is a cause of the large number of people not able to work, something that is not an issue in other countries with a properly functioning health service. [Post edited 12 Mar 2024 10:01]
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As if to prove my point about issues with health services and support impacting people's ability to work, I have just received an email from RNIB which contains the following.
"My name is Charmaine, and after having a stroke that resulted in sight loss, I was left without any vision rehabilitation support for over five months.
I had a job, was studying for a degree and was raising two very young daughters. I had been knocked for six by it all and not receiving specialist help left me feeling unable to walk along the street where I live. This made me isolated and scared to go outside.
Despite our legal right to it, too many blind and partially sighted people like me are not receiving the vital support we need to live independently.
The service in my area is massively under-resourced, but in some places there isn’t even a service at all, and in others people are waiting over a year for support. 86 per cent of local authorities in England miss the 28-day recommended deadline to explore a person’s needs. This failure cannot continue."
EDIT: here's a link to the petition I signed.
https://change.rnib.org.uk/page/142860/petition/1?ea.tracking.id=email&utm_c [Post edited 12 Mar 2024 16:22]
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 17:56 - Mar 12 with 871 views | factual_blue |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 10:20 - Mar 12 by bluejacko |
How is it is forgotten how much the pandemic actually cost the UK!£70B alone on furlough and there were no complaints when that was being paid! Anywhere between £310/410B was the cost of closing down the country for 2 yrs. don’t forget Labour wanted to extend that as well! So really it is no surprise that the country is in a mess and it doesn’t matter who’s in power that money has to be repaid somehow. |
The UK still has, IIRC, debt stretching back to the Napoleonic Wars. |  |
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 18:03 - Mar 12 with 862 views | WeWereZombies |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 17:56 - Mar 12 by factual_blue |
The UK still has, IIRC, debt stretching back to the Napoleonic Wars. |
If you recall correctly - haa - you're looking at the deductions on your old payslips and wondering why that wasn't sufficient at the time... | |
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| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 18:56 - Mar 12 with 822 views | Churchman |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 15:47 - Mar 12 by DJR |
Andy Haldane, who was chief economist at the Bank of England at the time, put it thus in an article in the FT last year.
"Over a decade ago, in pursuit of lower debt, the UK enacted fiscal austerity. This ruptured growth and was self-defeating for debt."
And however you dress it up, it was a disaster. [Post edited 12 Mar 2024 16:09]
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It was well publicised at the time and to anyone with a basic grasp of economics, Austerity was bonkers. Controlling spending while increasing investment as Alastair Darling proposed in 2010 made sense to me.
Add in Brexit and it’s instant economic rupturing along with 15% instant devaluation and there you have it. The crash of the economy pre dates pandemic and Truss. They just threw petrol on the flames and made things worse. |  | | |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 10:53 - Mar 17 with 587 views | DJR |
| Today's trolling Guardian article. on 15:47 - Mar 12 by DJR |
Andy Haldane, who was chief economist at the Bank of England at the time, put it thus in an article in the FT last year.
"Over a decade ago, in pursuit of lower debt, the UK enacted fiscal austerity. This ruptured growth and was self-defeating for debt."
And however you dress it up, it was a disaster. [Post edited 12 Mar 2024 16:09]
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As a follow up, I came across this which indicated austerity was also based on a significant error.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/18/uncovered-error-george-osborne-
It contains the following passage.
"Cutting the debt was the be-all and end-all for Osborne," said Danny Blanchflower, a former member of the monetary policy committee at the Bank of England and now professor of economics at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire. "This is the foundations of that house being ripped away. Reinhart-Rogoff [as the paper was known] was the fundamental building block." | | | |
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