| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD 08:13 - Jan 24 with 1219 views | Keno |
I was reading about this last night and wondering what do those fine fellows (and fellowesses) on TWTD think of this?
So what are your thoughts on the Silurian hypothesis?
Interesting and thought provoking or complete bollox
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 08:34 - Jan 24 with 1157 views | StokieBlue |
In order to even begin to consider it you need to define "civilisation".
Was there a previous non-human civilisation on the Earth? There is a non-zero chance of this being the case but it's also a very small chance. For a civilisation you need to have a means to manipulate items and build and that usually requires opposable thumbs (or tentacles) and only a few dinosaurs had those.
Now if we do assume there was a civilisation then we can also assume it wasn't advanced as we are now as the following would still be discoverable:
- Some forms of radioactive isotopes
- Space debris
- Large scale construction materials
- Non-natural materials
None of these have been discovered so in reality it's highly unlikely anyone came before us and thus we've managed to be the first species to mess up the planet in any meaningful way.
Pesky humans.
SB [Post edited 24 Jan 8:34]
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 08:41 - Jan 24 with 1124 views | Keno |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 08:34 - Jan 24 by StokieBlue |
In order to even begin to consider it you need to define "civilisation".
Was there a previous non-human civilisation on the Earth? There is a non-zero chance of this being the case but it's also a very small chance. For a civilisation you need to have a means to manipulate items and build and that usually requires opposable thumbs (or tentacles) and only a few dinosaurs had those.
Now if we do assume there was a civilisation then we can also assume it wasn't advanced as we are now as the following would still be discoverable:
- Some forms of radioactive isotopes
- Space debris
- Large scale construction materials
- Non-natural materials
None of these have been discovered so in reality it's highly unlikely anyone came before us and thus we've managed to be the first species to mess up the planet in any meaningful way.
Pesky humans.
SB [Post edited 24 Jan 8:34]
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There is the thought that a 'pre-history' civilisation may have existed on the coastal plains which where inundated at the end of the last ice age leading to the remnants 're-starting' on higher dry ground
The issue there is why would they start again from scratch, surely they would have bought some of the knowledge with them? | |
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 08:49 - Jan 24 with 1106 views | StokieBlue |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 08:41 - Jan 24 by Keno |
There is the thought that a 'pre-history' civilisation may have existed on the coastal plains which where inundated at the end of the last ice age leading to the remnants 're-starting' on higher dry ground
The issue there is why would they start again from scratch, surely they would have bought some of the knowledge with them? |
That would be a human civilisation though. There is a lot of nonsense on this subject such as the "documentaries" on Netflix [1]. It's highly unlikely there was a human based civilisation a million years ago as per the hypothesis. There could have been one 20000 years ago but there is also no evidence to support this.
If you want a scary thought, around 900,000 years ago it's hypothesised that the breeding population of our ancestors reduced down to 1300 pairs. That's how close humans came to never existing [2].
SB
[1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Apocalypse
[2]. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/aug/31/population-collapse-almost-wiped [Post edited 24 Jan 8:51]
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 08:51 - Jan 24 with 1088 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
I guess it would explain Elon Musk… |  | | |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:25 - Jan 24 with 1013 views | Guthrum |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 08:41 - Jan 24 by Keno |
There is the thought that a 'pre-history' civilisation may have existed on the coastal plains which where inundated at the end of the last ice age leading to the remnants 're-starting' on higher dry ground
The issue there is why would they start again from scratch, surely they would have bought some of the knowledge with them? |
Given the amount of stuff we have found on post-glacial inundated areas - e.g. human-worked tools from Doggerland - it would be reasonable to expect some evidence of the "ancient advanced civilisation" to have been discovered too. But it hasn't been.
Part of the issue is the Victorian conceit about ancient mankind having been primitive. Technologically, perhaps (they didn't really need it), but not socially. |  |
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:30 - Jan 24 with 975 views | BloomBlue |
What I dislike about the theory is its based on did an advance civilization exist on Earth before humans, it seems to assume humans are an advanced civilization, which I'm not convinced about.
However I've always been annoyed when people talk about person A was the first person to climb mount Everest or the first person to reach the south pole. How do those people know that an individual didn't climb Everest in 200 BC?
So for me thought provoking.
I've also always struggled with the dinosaurs wiped out by a meteorite, and why have 99.9% of the dinosaurs fossils found are pre the meteorite impact not post. The meteorite theory on it killing all dinosaurs is based on the sun being blacked out. Strange that pre the meteorite dinosaurs just died where they stood and their turned eventually into fossils but post the meteorite they didn't. Did they all huddle into a corner? Did they try and hide in caves, to survive similar to mammals & insects.
I've always had a problem with the dinosaurs/ meteorite theory.
And.
If it did wipe out the dinosaurs and we've only been able to find a hand of fossils from millions of dinos from post the impact could the same fate hit an advanced civilization at the same time and we've dimply been unable to find the evidence ? |  | | |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:34 - Jan 24 with 961 views | StokieBlue |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:30 - Jan 24 by BloomBlue |
What I dislike about the theory is its based on did an advance civilization exist on Earth before humans, it seems to assume humans are an advanced civilization, which I'm not convinced about.
However I've always been annoyed when people talk about person A was the first person to climb mount Everest or the first person to reach the south pole. How do those people know that an individual didn't climb Everest in 200 BC?
So for me thought provoking.
I've also always struggled with the dinosaurs wiped out by a meteorite, and why have 99.9% of the dinosaurs fossils found are pre the meteorite impact not post. The meteorite theory on it killing all dinosaurs is based on the sun being blacked out. Strange that pre the meteorite dinosaurs just died where they stood and their turned eventually into fossils but post the meteorite they didn't. Did they all huddle into a corner? Did they try and hide in caves, to survive similar to mammals & insects.
I've always had a problem with the dinosaurs/ meteorite theory.
And.
If it did wipe out the dinosaurs and we've only been able to find a hand of fossils from millions of dinos from post the impact could the same fate hit an advanced civilization at the same time and we've dimply been unable to find the evidence ? |
"What I dislike about the theory is its based on did an advance civilization exist on Earth before humans, it seems to assume humans are an advanced civilization, which I'm not convinced about."
By any reasonable definition of terrestrial based civilisation our current human civilisation is extremely advanced.
"I've also always struggled with the dinosaurs wiped out by a meteorite, and why have 99.9% of the dinosaurs fossils found are pre the meteorite impact not post. The meteorite theory on it killing all dinosaurs is based on the sun being blacked out. Strange that pre the meteorite dinosaurs just died where they stood and their turned eventually into fossils but post the meteorite they didn't. Did they all huddle into a corner? Did they try and hide in caves, to survive similar to mammals & insects."
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of theory, fossilisation, the accuracy of fossil aging and dust induced climate change.
SB | | | |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:34 - Jan 24 with 962 views | blueasfook |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 08:49 - Jan 24 by StokieBlue |
That would be a human civilisation though. There is a lot of nonsense on this subject such as the "documentaries" on Netflix [1]. It's highly unlikely there was a human based civilisation a million years ago as per the hypothesis. There could have been one 20000 years ago but there is also no evidence to support this.
If you want a scary thought, around 900,000 years ago it's hypothesised that the breeding population of our ancestors reduced down to 1300 pairs. That's how close humans came to never existing [2].
SB
[1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Apocalypse
[2]. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/aug/31/population-collapse-almost-wiped [Post edited 24 Jan 8:51]
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The Great Filter is an interesting theory too., and perhaps an answer to the Fermi Paradox. I recently heard Prof. Brian Cox talking about it. Basically, any advanced civilisations are destined to destroy themselves which is why we've never made contact with advanced alien species. They all got too clever for their own good and wiped themselves out :( |  |
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:40 - Jan 24 with 944 views | StokieBlue |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:34 - Jan 24 by blueasfook |
The Great Filter is an interesting theory too., and perhaps an answer to the Fermi Paradox. I recently heard Prof. Brian Cox talking about it. Basically, any advanced civilisations are destined to destroy themselves which is why we've never made contact with advanced alien species. They all got too clever for their own good and wiped themselves out :( |
The Great Filter is a subjective theory though, much like the Drake equation. There is no evidence to support it as a theory apart from the fact that we haven't found aliens but there are many reasons that could be the case. It's also not specifically about wiping ourselves out, rather that there are many states during a civilisations development where something could wipe them out.
The Great Filter is actually similar to the Drake equation but for the development of terrestrial life rather than alien. It basically states there are numerous stages that life has to progress through to develop and at any one of those states it's probable that life won't be able to progress. There are 9 states and we are currently at state 8.
This is also problematic because we only have a sample size of 1 but we are at stage 8 so perhaps the previous stages aren't unlikely at all. We simply don't have enough data.
All interesting to think about.
SB | | | |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:47 - Jan 24 with 907 views | Keno |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:40 - Jan 24 by StokieBlue |
The Great Filter is a subjective theory though, much like the Drake equation. There is no evidence to support it as a theory apart from the fact that we haven't found aliens but there are many reasons that could be the case. It's also not specifically about wiping ourselves out, rather that there are many states during a civilisations development where something could wipe them out.
The Great Filter is actually similar to the Drake equation but for the development of terrestrial life rather than alien. It basically states there are numerous stages that life has to progress through to develop and at any one of those states it's probable that life won't be able to progress. There are 9 states and we are currently at state 8.
This is also problematic because we only have a sample size of 1 but we are at stage 8 so perhaps the previous stages aren't unlikely at all. We simply don't have enough data.
All interesting to think about.
SB |
"This is also problematic because we only have a sample size of 1 but we are at stage 8 so perhaps the previous stages aren't unlikely at all. We simply don't have enough data"
I think that is a really interesting summary
Until we prove the existence of life elsewhere all of does remain very theoretical
You dont prescribe to the alien ancient theories? | |
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:50 - Jan 24 with 865 views | blueasfook |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:47 - Jan 24 by Keno |
"This is also problematic because we only have a sample size of 1 but we are at stage 8 so perhaps the previous stages aren't unlikely at all. We simply don't have enough data"
I think that is a really interesting summary
Until we prove the existence of life elsewhere all of does remain very theoretical
You dont prescribe to the alien ancient theories? |
If aliens did arrive, the Americans would shoot them | |
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 10:04 - Jan 24 with 822 views | Keno |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:50 - Jan 24 by blueasfook |
If aliens did arrive, the Americans would shoot them |
only if they are black | |
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| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 12:17 - Jan 24 with 698 views | stonojnr |
| Silurian hypothesis - time for a serious debate on TWTD on 09:25 - Jan 24 by Guthrum |
Given the amount of stuff we have found on post-glacial inundated areas - e.g. human-worked tools from Doggerland - it would be reasonable to expect some evidence of the "ancient advanced civilisation" to have been discovered too. But it hasn't been.
Part of the issue is the Victorian conceit about ancient mankind having been primitive. Technologically, perhaps (they didn't really need it), but not socially. |
It hasn't been discovered because who is looking for it ?
There was an item in the last series of Digging for Britain, with Dr Alice Roberts, it's on the BBC right so they aren't making this stuff up...or are they? But an amateur archeologist who goes mudlarking, basically wanders foreshores looking for stuff, who found Britain's oldest Bronze age leather shoe which is about 3000 years old, found a piece of tanned leather from a water carrier or foraging bag,in the same area carbon dated to roughly around 2500 BC, it's 4500 years old.
That's 1500 years of history nobody knew existed, its rewritten neolithic history in Britain, it's that significant to find worked leather 1500 years prior to when we thought Bronze age people had the skills, knowledge even desire to do this in Britain.
And nobody was looking for it, and it's the only object in it's existence that we know of.
Places like Gobekli Tepe turning out to be an incredibly important neolithic site dates so far to 9500BC. So it's double the age of the bit of leather. We didn't even understand the significance of the place till about 30 years ago.
I think there was another Dr Alice Roberts program on Egypt, where there's literally an entire ancient civilization of people we know nothing about, no architecture no finds no written documents have survive. We only know they exist, because in one Egyptian inscription they mention these people and some war they had with them, and that's it, that's all we know about them, that one inscription if it had been broken, lost, destroyed, they'd be completely hidden. Flips sake we only learnt to read Egyptian hieroglyphs again during the 1800s
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, there's alot modern humanity does not know about its history. | | | |
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