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22,000 claims yet only a 1% pay out but at a cost of £50m to the tax payer. Covid, the disease that keeps on giving, for some. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/art
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Covid vaccine harm on 18:30 - Feb 18 with 623 views
It’s very hard to study the effects of a vaccine on deaths if all the population are locked down, as those unvaccinated won’t come into contact with the virus very often.
Modelling or otherwise it’s clear the vaccines saved millions of lives worldwide.
You've lost me there. Sorry. It's probably quite easy to understand, but I'm clearly looking at this through a very different perspective
I would say it's much easier to study the effects of a vaccine on deaths if all the population is locked down because the only difference to exposure to those exposed to the virus is whether you had the vaccine or not.
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Covid vaccine harm on 18:57 - Feb 18 with 587 views
Covid vaccine harm on 18:24 - Feb 18 by Ewan_Oozami
Not really sure what your point is here....
My point is that there are plenty of vaccinated people and unvaccinated people available to collect real data regarding covid infection and deaths. Modelling has its uses in terms of assessing risk though it's somewhat pointless if the input data for the models are not available for scrutiny. Calculating deaths should be very easy assuming there are records detailing the vaccinated from the unvaccinated and other medical data available.
[Post edited 18 Feb 19:13]
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Covid vaccine harm on 19:12 - Feb 18 with 562 views
You appear to have quite a bit of skin in the game.
None of my family or friends died of COVID irrespective of vaccination status. None of my family or friends can prove any cause between vaccination and subsequent illness. Therefore, I have no skin in the game.
I do have an interest in government overreach and I consider enforced or coerced vaccination an example of government overreach. I know that doesn't sit well with some people but if people think that the unvaccinated pose a risk to others, they can get vaccinated to protect themselves, after all, the vaccines are safe and EFFECTIVE.
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Covid vaccine harm on 19:32 - Feb 18 with 526 views
Covid vaccine harm on 19:12 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
None of my family or friends died of COVID irrespective of vaccination status. None of my family or friends can prove any cause between vaccination and subsequent illness. Therefore, I have no skin in the game.
I do have an interest in government overreach and I consider enforced or coerced vaccination an example of government overreach. I know that doesn't sit well with some people but if people think that the unvaccinated pose a risk to others, they can get vaccinated to protect themselves, after all, the vaccines are safe and EFFECTIVE.
Your last couple of sentences make little sense. I’m not at all medical but I think vaccinations (and their effectiveness) are dependent on herd immunity. If significant numbers of a local population are not vaccinated against [for example] measles then that disease can still continue to thrive, finding vulnerable hosts.
Vaccinations may well protect an individual, but low take up allows a disease or virus to persist in the community. And this leads to outbreaks and putting high risk people at risk.
Vaccinations are not 100% safe for some and there are risks but the far far greater risk is not getting vaccinated. I think posters who are trained medically will be able to explain this far better than me.
On the side, parents who do not consent to their children being vaccinated are all bell ends. Obviously if the child is unable to get vaccinated…..terms and conditions apply.
[Post edited 18 Feb 19:34]
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Covid vaccine harm on 20:07 - Feb 18 with 499 views
Covid vaccine harm on 19:32 - Feb 18 by MattinLondon
Your last couple of sentences make little sense. I’m not at all medical but I think vaccinations (and their effectiveness) are dependent on herd immunity. If significant numbers of a local population are not vaccinated against [for example] measles then that disease can still continue to thrive, finding vulnerable hosts.
Vaccinations may well protect an individual, but low take up allows a disease or virus to persist in the community. And this leads to outbreaks and putting high risk people at risk.
Vaccinations are not 100% safe for some and there are risks but the far far greater risk is not getting vaccinated. I think posters who are trained medically will be able to explain this far better than me.
On the side, parents who do not consent to their children being vaccinated are all bell ends. Obviously if the child is unable to get vaccinated…..terms and conditions apply.
[Post edited 18 Feb 19:34]
"Immunity" we are told happens when we have survived a virus and your immunity is natural, or whenyou're vaccinated.
You take a vaccine to become immune. The effectiveness of vaccinations is not dependent on herd immunity. Your resistance to viral infection is dependent on herd immunity. There's no point vaccinating a herd which is immune.
I know lots of people who got covid after getting the vaccine. What does that tell you about the effectiveness of the vaccine? I also know people who got covid more than once having decided to opt for natural immunity, without vaccination. What does that say about natural immunity? When people get covid despite supposedly being immune, it's worth considering whether the testing procedure is wrongly identifying covid sufferers - especially those non-symptomatic sufferers.
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Covid vaccine harm on 20:20 - Feb 18 with 459 views
Covid vaccine harm on 20:07 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
"Immunity" we are told happens when we have survived a virus and your immunity is natural, or whenyou're vaccinated.
You take a vaccine to become immune. The effectiveness of vaccinations is not dependent on herd immunity. Your resistance to viral infection is dependent on herd immunity. There's no point vaccinating a herd which is immune.
I know lots of people who got covid after getting the vaccine. What does that tell you about the effectiveness of the vaccine? I also know people who got covid more than once having decided to opt for natural immunity, without vaccination. What does that say about natural immunity? When people get covid despite supposedly being immune, it's worth considering whether the testing procedure is wrongly identifying covid sufferers - especially those non-symptomatic sufferers.
Covid vaccine does not make you immune but drastically reduces the chances of getting covid but this wanes over time.
The big thing was that it hugely reduces your chances of getting very sick and needing admission to hospital.
Covid vaccine harm on 20:07 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
"Immunity" we are told happens when we have survived a virus and your immunity is natural, or whenyou're vaccinated.
You take a vaccine to become immune. The effectiveness of vaccinations is not dependent on herd immunity. Your resistance to viral infection is dependent on herd immunity. There's no point vaccinating a herd which is immune.
I know lots of people who got covid after getting the vaccine. What does that tell you about the effectiveness of the vaccine? I also know people who got covid more than once having decided to opt for natural immunity, without vaccination. What does that say about natural immunity? When people get covid despite supposedly being immune, it's worth considering whether the testing procedure is wrongly identifying covid sufferers - especially those non-symptomatic sufferers.
This is a good introduction to vaccination, have a look....
You are the obsolete SRN4 to my Fairey Rotodyne....
Covid vaccine harm on 16:53 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
"Vaccinations may have prevented almost 20 million COVID-19 deaths worldwide by Emily Head, Dr Sabine L. van Elsland
Vaccinations estimatedto have averted 19.8 million COVID-19 deaths worldwide in their first year, according to the latest Imperial modelling study.
In the first year of the vaccination programme, 19.8 million out of a potential 31.4 million COVID-19 deaths were prevented worldwide according to estimates based on excess deaths from 185 countries and territories. These findings were published by Imperial College London's MRC Centre for Global Infectious Disease Analysis in The Lancet Infectious Diseases.
If the targets set out by the WHO had been achieved, 1 in 5 lives lost due to COVID-19 in low-income countries could have been prevented.
Excess deaths To estimate the impact of global vaccination programmes, the researchers used an established model of COVID-19 transmission using country-level data for officially recorded COVID-19 deaths occurring between 8 December 2020 and 8 December 2021 (the first year of the global vaccination programme). To account for under-reporting of deaths in countries with weaker surveillance systems, they carried out a separate analysis based on the number of excess deaths recorded above those that would have been expected during the same time period. Where official data was not available, the team used estimates of all-cause excess mortality. These analyses were compared with an alternative hypothetical scenario in which no vaccines were delivered.
Your article comes from Imperial College where Neil Ferguson's team were chosen by the government to model the impact of the virus.
It would also be in your interest to check out Neil Ferguson's record for predictions and worst case scenarios in previous epidemics: BSE (2002), Bird Flu (2005) and Swine Flu (2009). It's not convincing reading to say the least.
Providing me with real data between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups across a variety of different countries would be much more informative. If you can find that I'll take a look, but I'll prepare you for the fact that you'll find very little evidence that stands up to scientific scrutiny, which is a shame, because it should be very easy with such an enormous amount of data available.
Where you have emphasised words the uncertainty is about the scale not whether it had any effect. The scientific data shows the vaccinations were highly effective. I am not sure what the level of uncertainty on the data is, but the fact that the article says it may have been almost 20 million would suggest an uncertainty of around 1% so between 19.7 million and 19.9 million. An uncertainty of 3% or more would mean that it may have been more than 20 million.
It is an estimate based on modelling because there is uncertainty and no real-world situation that could be reliably scaled up (even if there was, there would still be a level of uncertainty because that is the nature of scientific data - especially in living populations).
The paragraph quoting WHO is where it is referencing the higher death rates in low-income countries where vaccination was not so readily or rapidly available and where there may have been greater resistance to vaccination due to campaigning by anti-vaxer groups. WHO set targets that weren't met. The death rates were higher. That should tell you something.
The big difference with BSE, Bird Flu and Swine Flu was the studies assumed a transmission into humans that then became widely and easily transmissible from human to human with a high mortality. That didn't happen. With Covid we know that it did.
Covid vaccine does not make you immune but drastically reduces the chances of getting covid but this wanes over time.
The big thing was that it hugely reduces your chances of getting very sick and needing admission to hospital.
"The big thing was that it hugely reduces your chances of getting very sick and needing admission to hospital."
Was everyone that died of Covid or needed hospital admission unvaccinated? Do you have figures that show covid deaths and hospitalisations for the vaccinated and unvaccinated?
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Covid vaccine harm on 20:39 - Feb 18 with 408 views
Covid vaccine harm on 19:32 - Feb 18 by MattinLondon
Your last couple of sentences make little sense. I’m not at all medical but I think vaccinations (and their effectiveness) are dependent on herd immunity. If significant numbers of a local population are not vaccinated against [for example] measles then that disease can still continue to thrive, finding vulnerable hosts.
Vaccinations may well protect an individual, but low take up allows a disease or virus to persist in the community. And this leads to outbreaks and putting high risk people at risk.
Vaccinations are not 100% safe for some and there are risks but the far far greater risk is not getting vaccinated. I think posters who are trained medically will be able to explain this far better than me.
On the side, parents who do not consent to their children being vaccinated are all bell ends. Obviously if the child is unable to get vaccinated…..terms and conditions apply.
[Post edited 18 Feb 19:34]
There are especially vulnerable people who due to their conditions are not able to be vaccinated or for whom the vaccines are not as effective. This is a big part of the importance of herd immunity. Vaccinations have contributed to the eradication of diseases. Some that were becoming very rare are very much on the increase as vaccination rates have dropped.
Covid vaccine harm on 19:12 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
None of my family or friends died of COVID irrespective of vaccination status. None of my family or friends can prove any cause between vaccination and subsequent illness. Therefore, I have no skin in the game.
I do have an interest in government overreach and I consider enforced or coerced vaccination an example of government overreach. I know that doesn't sit well with some people but if people think that the unvaccinated pose a risk to others, they can get vaccinated to protect themselves, after all, the vaccines are safe and EFFECTIVE.
"I have little skin in the game on this topic, but I'm fascinated to know how you can claim that it "can’t be argued that vaccines saved millions or billions of lives across the globe"."
Seems disingenuous to me. The topic being vaccines and you then seemingly trotting out a certain calibre of anti Vax type views. Each to their own, but I don't think that is as you entered, seemingly some unbiased bystander. I must have just misread it though. My bad.
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Covid vaccine harm on 20:39 - Feb 18 with 405 views
Covid vaccine harm on 20:35 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
"The big thing was that it hugely reduces your chances of getting very sick and needing admission to hospital."
Was everyone that died of Covid or needed hospital admission unvaccinated? Do you have figures that show covid deaths and hospitalisations for the vaccinated and unvaccinated?
Covid vaccine harm on 20:35 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
"The big thing was that it hugely reduces your chances of getting very sick and needing admission to hospital."
Was everyone that died of Covid or needed hospital admission unvaccinated? Do you have figures that show covid deaths and hospitalisations for the vaccinated and unvaccinated?
To answer your final paragraph, vaccinated people as well as unvaccinated were hospitalised. People died in both groups. The difference is that vaccination reduced the numbers of both compared with those who were unvaccinated.
Since this has been widely reported and discussed, I wonder why someone who seems to take a great deal of interest in it isn't already aware of that and asked a rather blunt black-and-white question suggesting that you think it wasn't the case.
Covid vaccine harm on 20:35 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
"The big thing was that it hugely reduces your chances of getting very sick and needing admission to hospital."
Was everyone that died of Covid or needed hospital admission unvaccinated? Do you have figures that show covid deaths and hospitalisations for the vaccinated and unvaccinated?
Do you doubt that the covid vaccine reduced your chance of becoming severely unwell and requiring hospital support ?
Where you have emphasised words the uncertainty is about the scale not whether it had any effect. The scientific data shows the vaccinations were highly effective. I am not sure what the level of uncertainty on the data is, but the fact that the article says it may have been almost 20 million would suggest an uncertainty of around 1% so between 19.7 million and 19.9 million. An uncertainty of 3% or more would mean that it may have been more than 20 million.
It is an estimate based on modelling because there is uncertainty and no real-world situation that could be reliably scaled up (even if there was, there would still be a level of uncertainty because that is the nature of scientific data - especially in living populations).
The paragraph quoting WHO is where it is referencing the higher death rates in low-income countries where vaccination was not so readily or rapidly available and where there may have been greater resistance to vaccination due to campaigning by anti-vaxer groups. WHO set targets that weren't met. The death rates were higher. That should tell you something.
The big difference with BSE, Bird Flu and Swine Flu was the studies assumed a transmission into humans that then became widely and easily transmissible from human to human with a high mortality. That didn't happen. With Covid we know that it did.
No. The figures are produced by modelling to upscale efficiency/effectiveness data fed into the models. If you can provide me with the data that was fed into the model it could be scrutinised. Perhaps you have it?
If , as you say, Neil Ferguson's estimates from his modelling of BSE, Bird Flu and Swine Flu assumed something that was incorrect, it does demonstrate that his models were wrong, and therefore useless.
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Covid vaccine harm on 21:12 - Feb 18 with 292 views
There are especially vulnerable people who due to their conditions are not able to be vaccinated or for whom the vaccines are not as effective. This is a big part of the importance of herd immunity. Vaccinations have contributed to the eradication of diseases. Some that were becoming very rare are very much on the increase as vaccination rates have dropped.
"There are especially vulnerable people who due to their conditions are not able to be vaccinated or for whom the vaccines are not as effective."
This rather contradicts the covid vaccine schedule where the oldest members of society and those in care homes were vaccinated first. Your argument suggests that it would have been better to vaccinate the least vulnerable members of society first in order to reach herd immunity to protect those who were not able to be vaccinated or those for whom the vaccines were not as effective.
You seem knowledgeable about this topic, so I'm surprised that the vaccination schedule didn't follow the best procedure for protecting the more vulnerable.
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Covid vaccine harm on 21:18 - Feb 18 with 283 views
"I have little skin in the game on this topic, but I'm fascinated to know how you can claim that it "can’t be argued that vaccines saved millions or billions of lives across the globe"."
Seems disingenuous to me. The topic being vaccines and you then seemingly trotting out a certain calibre of anti Vax type views. Each to their own, but I don't think that is as you entered, seemingly some unbiased bystander. I must have just misread it though. My bad.
You certainly assume I am unvaccinated. Like I said, I am pro bodily sovereignty and against politicians enforcing or coercing people what to do. Yes, your bad.
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Covid vaccine harm on 21:23 - Feb 18 with 265 views
Covid vaccine harm on 21:01 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
No. The figures are produced by modelling to upscale efficiency/effectiveness data fed into the models. If you can provide me with the data that was fed into the model it could be scrutinised. Perhaps you have it?
If , as you say, Neil Ferguson's estimates from his modelling of BSE, Bird Flu and Swine Flu assumed something that was incorrect, it does demonstrate that his models were wrong, and therefore useless.
The article links the the Lancet paper which contains the data.
Covid vaccine harm on 21:12 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
"There are especially vulnerable people who due to their conditions are not able to be vaccinated or for whom the vaccines are not as effective."
This rather contradicts the covid vaccine schedule where the oldest members of society and those in care homes were vaccinated first. Your argument suggests that it would have been better to vaccinate the least vulnerable members of society first in order to reach herd immunity to protect those who were not able to be vaccinated or those for whom the vaccines were not as effective.
You seem knowledgeable about this topic, so I'm surprised that the vaccination schedule didn't follow the best procedure for protecting the more vulnerable.
By no means an expert but here is some information on the small groups who would be advised not to be vaccinated. https://www.medicalnewstoday.c
EDIT: My comment was also a general comment about vaccinations rather than specific to the Covid vaccine. I was actually thinking more about people with complex health conditions but this has more information. It appears most people with complex health conditions are advised to get vaccinated anyway: https://www.healthline.com/hea
Covid vaccine harm on 21:01 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
No. The figures are produced by modelling to upscale efficiency/effectiveness data fed into the models. If you can provide me with the data that was fed into the model it could be scrutinised. Perhaps you have it?
If , as you say, Neil Ferguson's estimates from his modelling of BSE, Bird Flu and Swine Flu assumed something that was incorrect, it does demonstrate that his models were wrong, and therefore useless.
You are the obsolete SRN4 to my Fairey Rotodyne....
Oh hang on, it's from the government, so obviously can't be trusted.....
I asked you the following questions "Was everyone that died of Covid or needed hospital admission unvaccinated? Do you have figures that show covid deaths and hospitalisations for the vaccinated and unvaccinated?"
You send me a link to data for a very brief period of time in 2025. That doesn't appear to answer my question.
Additionally, the fact that you provide government data has no bearing on whether it can be trusted. It's a little naive to suggest that it does. Do you trust all government information, irrespective of the Political Party in power and the country?
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Covid vaccine harm on 21:30 - Feb 18 with 235 views
Covid vaccine harm on 21:18 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman
You certainly assume I am unvaccinated. Like I said, I am pro bodily sovereignty and against politicians enforcing or coercing people what to do. Yes, your bad.
I didn't assume that. I said your views seemed similar to anti Vax ones. You seem ridiculously well versed in certain arguments around the specifics of data around COVID and around very specific data models. I stand by my point that it was disingenuous to enter this with 'no skin in the game' as the first words in a debate where you clearly have both knowledge and opinion.
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Covid vaccine harm on 21:32 - Feb 18 with 230 views
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