| Grappling consultation 20:57 - May 12 with 2596 views | monty_radio |
A consultation about excessive grappling in the penalty area and how to deal with it will take place at the end of the season, referees' chief Howard Webb says. (BBC)
Referees will be shown how to waggle their fingers to greater effect; how to make the players stand still and take their telling-off like a man and how then to retreat to a safe refereeing spot and where else to concentrate their gaze while the mayhem resumes in the goalmouth. As a final threat, everyone involved in the six yard box fracas will be kept in at half time or after the match for five minutes or until the real culprit owns up. Offenders must learn the lesson that inappropriate means inappropriate! |  |
| |  |
| Grappling consultation on 16:09 - May 13 with 617 views | franz_tyson |
| Grappling consultation on 15:54 - May 13 by aloanagain |
You don't play football with your hands,apart from the goalkeeper, so as soon as a player uses their hands to hold, push etc, no matter how minor,award a free kick to the opposing team. Yes we will have loads of free kicks given but after a while players will realise that they can't get away with it and hopefully we can all enjoy football again without all this acting. |
There could be 5 infringements happening at the same time. From both sides. You can't give 5 fouls at the same time. They're all at it. | | | |
| Grappling consultation on 17:01 - May 13 with 577 views | Leaky |
| Grappling consultation on 14:57 - May 13 by tractorboy1978 |
It'll be one of those rules where 101 penalties will be given in the first few weeks, everyone moans about it and then we revert back to how it is now. |
Yep a bit like actually we had in our first season back in the championship, when the powers that decided that to be strict added on time. Was at SOL first game of the season we had 13 mins added on, didn't seam to happen again. |  | | |
| Grappling consultation on 17:07 - May 13 with 577 views | grow_our_own |
| Grappling consultation on 15:54 - May 13 by aloanagain |
You don't play football with your hands,apart from the goalkeeper, so as soon as a player uses their hands to hold, push etc, no matter how minor,award a free kick to the opposing team. Yes we will have loads of free kicks given but after a while players will realise that they can't get away with it and hopefully we can all enjoy football again without all this acting. |
You do use your hands. When you go up for a header, you don't jump like a pogo stick, you use your arms to get momentum/height. Shoulders and upper arms are fine when shielding the ball too.
I know rules say ref shouldn't adjudicate until ball is in play, but can't have a free-for-all. MMA rules until ball is kicked won't work.
Vacant six-yard box except keeper is the best idea so far in this thread, but even that might just move the grappling to edge of six-yard box.
I think the reason there's grappling is players know that ref & VAR are too timid to give pens. My solution, as I've suggested on other threads is to move the decision away from the ref & VAR room, and move it towards the players. Limited captain challenges. Players know when they've been rugby tackled, and if they tell their captain to challenge, then VAR has a single, specific incident to review, rather than try to adjudicate every contact (and usually bottle giving decisions for any). If the challenged incident would have been a foul outside the box then it's a pen/free-kick inside it. Likely what will happen is the worst infringements (ie rugby tackles) will be challenged, a few pens will be given, and then the worst of the grappling will disappear over time.
What confuses me is why players are coached to grapple in the first place. When I used to play (high amateur std), and we were coached the art of marking, we were told to be in contact with your man, but not to foul/push. Having a hand or even just fingers on him meant you can know where he is while keeping your eyes on the ball and attack it. I'm clueless why any defender would only watch (and grapple with) their man while being oblivious to the ball. Can't win a ball you aren't looking for! [Post edited 14 May 10:15]
| | | |
| Grappling consultation on 17:25 - May 13 with 541 views | Radlett_blue |
| Grappling consultation on 17:07 - May 13 by grow_our_own |
You do use your hands. When you go up for a header, you don't jump like a pogo stick, you use your arms to get momentum/height. Shoulders and upper arms are fine when shielding the ball too.
I know rules say ref shouldn't adjudicate until ball is in play, but can't have a free-for-all. MMA rules until ball is kicked won't work.
Vacant six-yard box except keeper is the best idea so far in this thread, but even that might just move the grappling to edge of six-yard box.
I think the reason there's grappling is players know that ref & VAR are too timid to give pens. My solution, as I've suggested on other threads is to move the decision away from the ref & VAR room, and move it towards the players. Limited captain challenges. Players know when they've been rugby tackled, and if they tell their captain to challenge, then VAR has a single, specific incident to review, rather than try to adjudicate every contact (and usually bottle giving decisions for any). If the challenged incident would have been a foul outside the box then it's a pen/free-kick inside it. Likely what will happen is the worst infringements (ie rugby tackles) will be challenged, a few pens will be given, and then the worst of the grappling will disappear over time.
What confuses me is why players are coached to grapple in the first place. When I used to play (high amateur std), and we were coached the art of marking, we were told to be in contact with your man, but not to foul/push. Having a hand or even just fingers on him meant you can know where he is while keeping your eyes on the ball and attack it. I'm clueless why any defender would only watch (and grapple with) their man while being oblivious to the ball. Can't win a ball you aren't looking for! [Post edited 14 May 10:15]
|
The best idea I have heard is to use the hockey idea whereby some players from the defending team have to be in the centre circle, while attackers are prohibited from the penalty area until the ball is kicked. The wrestling in the 6 yard box has become ridiculous & completely unrefereeable. Simply giving a few penalties will create more controversy & inconsistency & involve the dreaded VAR. |  |
| |
| Grappling consultation on 07:25 - May 14 with 475 views | BlueBoots |
| Grappling consultation on 16:09 - May 13 by franz_tyson |
There could be 5 infringements happening at the same time. From both sides. You can't give 5 fouls at the same time. They're all at it. |
I think the referees are having to pause play far too often now to talk to players about it. In most cases there is a guiltier party. Something needs to be done as a deterrent...maybe along the lines of an infringement by the attacking team meaning they forfeit their corner with the defending team being awarded a goal kick, or an infringement by the defending team being penalised by the corner kick being moved forward 10 yards. [Post edited 14 May 7:28]
|  |
| |
| Grappling consultation on 08:38 - May 14 with 461 views | PioneerBlue |
It is sad that so much needs to be codified. A Ref is the ultimate controller of the match and have plenty of jurisdiction to make decisions the probably as always is making decisions and making them consistently.
The ball needs to be kicked between two goals within the space of a rectangle. Players can tackle to win the ball with reasonable force, but not to seek injury to another player. A goalkeeper can handle the ball in the box. Its a goal if the ball crosses the goal line!
Why all the stoppage time for players leaving the pitch, stoppage time for minor injuries that are more like players laying about, goal kicks take so long and goalkeepers get booked second half only, players leaving the pitch takes hours? I know the leagues are addressing some of this and i welcome a consultation but what are they going to find? Players grapple, its not within the rules, they should be booked, fouls should be given or corners down graded to goal kicks or upgraded to indirect penalties or yellows thrown immediately - this is where football needs a green card. Even make offenders go and stand inside the centre circle if they do the grappling (another great rule stolen from hockey).
Where did grappling at a corner ever become acceptable? Its not acceptable anywhere else on the pitch leading to a free kick. How is simulation not more rigorously applied for players leaving their feet when there is a minor contact. Holding at any time isnt part of the game.
Refereeing and sadly now re-refereeing via VAR make the game practically unwatchable at times more particularly when you have a top or bottom finish to challenge for.
Im sure refs have all the tools to allow games to be properly run but the more complicated the rules the less well they are applied and more inconsistent application becomes.
Pray for us next year! [Post edited 14 May 17:33]
| |
| |
| Grappling consultation on 09:34 - May 14 with 447 views | Radlett_blue |
| Grappling consultation on 08:38 - May 14 by PioneerBlue |
It is sad that so much needs to be codified. A Ref is the ultimate controller of the match and have plenty of jurisdiction to make decisions the probably as always is making decisions and making them consistently.
The ball needs to be kicked between two goals within the space of a rectangle. Players can tackle to win the ball with reasonable force, but not to seek injury to another player. A goalkeeper can handle the ball in the box. Its a goal if the ball crosses the goal line!
Why all the stoppage time for players leaving the pitch, stoppage time for minor injuries that are more like players laying about, goal kicks take so long and goalkeepers get booked second half only, players leaving the pitch takes hours? I know the leagues are addressing some of this and i welcome a consultation but what are they going to find? Players grapple, its not within the rules, they should be booked, fouls should be given or corners down graded to goal kicks or upgraded to indirect penalties or yellows thrown immediately - this is where football needs a green card. Even make offenders go and stand inside the centre circle if they do the grappling (another great rule stolen from hockey).
Where did grappling at a corner ever become acceptable? Its not acceptable anywhere else on the pitch leading to a free kick. How is simulation not more rigorously applied for players leaving their feet when there is a minor contact. Holding at any time isnt part of the game.
Refereeing and sadly now re-refereeing via VAR make the game practically unwatchable at times more particularly when you have a top or bottom finish to challenge for.
Im sure refs have all the tools to allow games to be properly run but the more complicated the rules the less well they are applied and more inconsistent application becomes.
Pray for us next year! [Post edited 14 May 17:33]
|
Grappling at corners didn't suddenly become acceptable. It's become increasingly worse & even in the PL most corner kicks are now inswingers directed at a crowded 6 yard box. So many players are now doing it that it's become impossible to referee.
Interestingly, this is more of an English/PL thing as in Europe, goalkeepers are more protected. English football has always allowed more physical contact & this is where we've reached. | |
| |
| Grappling consultation on 15:09 - May 14 with 409 views | HighgateBlue |
The six thoughts that occur to me are these:
(1) It's definitely worse than ever, and I think something needs doing.
(2) there's no obvious answer, hence a consultation is surely a good thing.
(3) Why was it not previously a problem, given that football in general used to be a lot more physically robust, dirty and violent? (fewer televised matches in the 70s yes, and hence less obsessive analysis, but even in the early Prem era there was a fair amount of analysis and raking over fouls).
(4) One of the biggest problems is that, unlike in other on-pitch situations, there will likely be multiple grapples occurring all at once, giving a massive headache in terms of who did what first - you've got to adjudicate on half a dozen fouls AND on chronological order. And quickly enough not to annoy fans. (the Arsenal West Ham match being the most obvious example)
(5) Adding complexity and caveats to rules rarely improves things in football. See: offside, handball, FFP, the application of VAR...
(6) I've heard the suggestion that attackers should be allowed in the 6 yard box when the corner is taken. That's an interesting and simple suggestion. But would it make the grappling in the rest of the box even worse?
I have no answers, to the above questions or any others. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Grappling consultation on 15:29 - May 14 with 396 views | backwaywhen |
| Grappling consultation on 15:09 - May 14 by HighgateBlue |
The six thoughts that occur to me are these:
(1) It's definitely worse than ever, and I think something needs doing.
(2) there's no obvious answer, hence a consultation is surely a good thing.
(3) Why was it not previously a problem, given that football in general used to be a lot more physically robust, dirty and violent? (fewer televised matches in the 70s yes, and hence less obsessive analysis, but even in the early Prem era there was a fair amount of analysis and raking over fouls).
(4) One of the biggest problems is that, unlike in other on-pitch situations, there will likely be multiple grapples occurring all at once, giving a massive headache in terms of who did what first - you've got to adjudicate on half a dozen fouls AND on chronological order. And quickly enough not to annoy fans. (the Arsenal West Ham match being the most obvious example)
(5) Adding complexity and caveats to rules rarely improves things in football. See: offside, handball, FFP, the application of VAR...
(6) I've heard the suggestion that attackers should be allowed in the 6 yard box when the corner is taken. That's an interesting and simple suggestion. But would it make the grappling in the rest of the box even worse?
I have no answers, to the above questions or any others. |
Your number 3 is interesting , in years gone by we were always taught to defend a corner / set piece if the ball is delivered in the air then always keep your eys on the ball and make sure you get their first ….. now most of the defenders have no idea where the ball is as they are looking away at the player they are trying to grapple , just makes no sense at all ….Barmy. | | | |
| Grappling consultation on 16:32 - May 14 with 374 views | franz_tyson |
| Grappling consultation on 15:09 - May 14 by HighgateBlue |
The six thoughts that occur to me are these:
(1) It's definitely worse than ever, and I think something needs doing.
(2) there's no obvious answer, hence a consultation is surely a good thing.
(3) Why was it not previously a problem, given that football in general used to be a lot more physically robust, dirty and violent? (fewer televised matches in the 70s yes, and hence less obsessive analysis, but even in the early Prem era there was a fair amount of analysis and raking over fouls).
(4) One of the biggest problems is that, unlike in other on-pitch situations, there will likely be multiple grapples occurring all at once, giving a massive headache in terms of who did what first - you've got to adjudicate on half a dozen fouls AND on chronological order. And quickly enough not to annoy fans. (the Arsenal West Ham match being the most obvious example)
(5) Adding complexity and caveats to rules rarely improves things in football. See: offside, handball, FFP, the application of VAR...
(6) I've heard the suggestion that attackers should be allowed in the 6 yard box when the corner is taken. That's an interesting and simple suggestion. But would it make the grappling in the rest of the box even worse?
I have no answers, to the above questions or any others. |
They didn’t have deadball specialist coaches years ago. Now they do. If you specialise in deadball situations as a coach I suppose you're going to go that extra yard to get any advantage. We're seeing everything done to death now and this is another which has got out of hand.
I can't see any real solution to cut it out, but they can make things easier for the officials. No attacking player in the six yard area could be a thing. We see shirts being pulled and arms around necks whilst the kick is being lined up. Find a means to separate players and make it easier for the officials to see.
It's all right saying start giving penalties or free-kicks and stamping down on and it will stop.... but there's loads of shenanigans going on at the same time. You penalise one player you see, but a second before that same player could have been tugged or pushed and was trying to push back. It's a lottery.
We seemed to have crossed that line ŵhere cheating has become acceptable and part of the entertainment. We even congratulate our players for sh1thousery... maybe we've got what we deserve. I've even heard that clubs are sending spies to rival 's training sessions to get an advantage ( probably nonsense). | | | |
| Grappling consultation on 17:39 - May 14 with 349 views | PioneerBlue |
| Grappling consultation on 09:37 - May 13 by TVRBlue |
Under the current rules the referee doesn't need to do anything when a corner is about to be taken.
What I mean by this is the referee should allow all the pushing/pulling/grappling to happen as the player who is about to take the corner kick runs up to take the kick. What the referee should then do is as soon as the corner kick is taken, and the ball is then "in play", he, or she, should award a free kick to the defending team or a penalty to the attacking team, depending on which offence he, or she, sees first.
The referee is not on the pitch to manage the game, trying to control players behaviour/actions when corners are being taken. Blowing the whistle to stop the corner from being taken and pulling players over to one side telling them to stop grappling isn't part of a referee's remit. The referee is on the pitch to apply the rules of the game, not to pre-empt player's actions.
Personally, I think this approach would greatly reduce the amount of grappling going on at corners.
Genuinely interested in others thoughts on this. |
I think you are right and the number of times the ref himself slows the game down by taking to long to allow the corner to be taken or intervenes in a way that achieves little is mad. The only thing i dont want to see is miss given penalties, that would ruin games. I am in favour of green cards or down grading corners if the attacking team is implied or start removing defenders from the 18YB making the defender stand in the centre circle. Disadvantage the defending team some how, even take two defending team players out. | |
| |
| Grappling consultation on 18:43 - May 14 with 337 views | TVRBlue |
| Grappling consultation on 17:39 - May 14 by PioneerBlue |
I think you are right and the number of times the ref himself slows the game down by taking to long to allow the corner to be taken or intervenes in a way that achieves little is mad. The only thing i dont want to see is miss given penalties, that would ruin games. I am in favour of green cards or down grading corners if the attacking team is implied or start removing defenders from the 18YB making the defender stand in the centre circle. Disadvantage the defending team some how, even take two defending team players out. |
Thank you.
I appreciate your take on things, but just wonder if bringing in even more rules, or removing players from the six yard box or penalty area to stand in the centre circle is over complicating things and will just slow the game down even more. Also, who decides which player has to go and stand in the centre circle?, the referee?, the team captain?, the team manager? Just all too complicated for me.
As I said in an earlier post, there are rules already in place, i.e. you are not allowed to grapple with another player anywhere on the pitch, let alone before, or during, when a corner is being taken.
Yes, perhaps the referee might get the occasional choice of who started things wrong (as another poster has said there are so many incidents going on at the same time now) but if the actual rules of the game are adhered to, and free kicks or penalties awarded, I think it might, and I repeat might, reduce all of this.
I don' t mean for this to come across too heavily, but all of the grappling that goes on at corners is spoiling football in my opinion. |  | | |
| Grappling consultation on 21:58 - May 14 with 305 views | strikalite |
| Grappling consultation on 08:35 - May 13 by Leaky |
They had a Ref. on Motd, he suggested no player's apart from the keeper be allowed in the 6 yard box until the corner was taken. be interesting experiment. |
Mark Chapman, ex players and a ref were discussing it on the Monday night club, yes they all liked it but you couldn't just change it for the Prem, they didn't think it was such as big problem abroad....and wondered why. |  | | |
| Grappling consultation on 23:36 - May 14 with 278 views | north_stand77 |
| Grappling consultation on 21:58 - May 14 by strikalite |
Mark Chapman, ex players and a ref were discussing it on the Monday night club, yes they all liked it but you couldn't just change it for the Prem, they didn't think it was such as big problem abroad....and wondered why. |
I don't normally watch Scottish football but saw the Motherwell v Celtic game last night. It was like watching 'proper' football from the past.
Everything felt different to watching the English teams - lovely flow to the game, few fouls ( less rolling around when there was one), and most noticeably, very little grappling on corners.
Was thoroughly entertaining as a result |  | | |
| Grappling consultation on 08:20 - May 15 with 211 views | PioneerBlue |
| Grappling consultation on 18:43 - May 14 by TVRBlue |
Thank you.
I appreciate your take on things, but just wonder if bringing in even more rules, or removing players from the six yard box or penalty area to stand in the centre circle is over complicating things and will just slow the game down even more. Also, who decides which player has to go and stand in the centre circle?, the referee?, the team captain?, the team manager? Just all too complicated for me.
As I said in an earlier post, there are rules already in place, i.e. you are not allowed to grapple with another player anywhere on the pitch, let alone before, or during, when a corner is being taken.
Yes, perhaps the referee might get the occasional choice of who started things wrong (as another poster has said there are so many incidents going on at the same time now) but if the actual rules of the game are adhered to, and free kicks or penalties awarded, I think it might, and I repeat might, reduce all of this.
I don' t mean for this to come across too heavily, but all of the grappling that goes on at corners is spoiling football in my opinion. |
No further complications! Im with you there are rules in place already. What stops a referee actually being effective is over codification, i see no reason a ref cant give a pen or award a goal kick today if none of the players are bothered about the actual corner. Its only what is written down or perhaps not.
As for sending a player out of the 18YB its works in hockey, no fuss. Its the same as any other penalty you are suggesting, ref seeing over grappling and sends one or two out of the 18YB. Done. No need for a penalty. | |
| |
| Grappling consultation on 08:51 - May 15 with 205 views | Radlett_blue |
| Grappling consultation on 17:39 - May 14 by PioneerBlue |
I think you are right and the number of times the ref himself slows the game down by taking to long to allow the corner to be taken or intervenes in a way that achieves little is mad. The only thing i dont want to see is miss given penalties, that would ruin games. I am in favour of green cards or down grading corners if the attacking team is implied or start removing defenders from the 18YB making the defender stand in the centre circle. Disadvantage the defending team some how, even take two defending team players out. |
We can't keep blaming referees for everything, although I agree wasting time lecturing 2 players who are wrestling each other is pointless. In the PL, it seems they largely ignore the wrestling in the 6 yard box & assume if a goal is scored, VAR can sort it out.
Arsenal take more time over their corner kicks than anyone & they have the best conversion rate in the PL this season. I guess they've become very proficient at fouling. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
