| Bonkers on 19:36 - Aug 23 with 3617 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Apparently they set the recognition filters on the applications to around 10-15% margin of error, so as not to exclude masculine looking women. That's probably why it took time for human admins to spot Ms Tickle on the site and question her biological sex.
This issue isn't going to go away any time soon. As long as women feel their safe spaces such as changing rooms, toilet facilities secure prison facilities, etc (in the main) are not fully safe, these other seemingly more trivial issues will crop up as well. It's bucking against the whole system.
Tough problem to solve without offending some group or another, really. [Post edited 23 Aug 2024 19:36]
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| Bonkers on 19:59 - Aug 23 with 3505 views | gtsb1966 |
| Bonkers on 19:36 - Aug 23 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Apparently they set the recognition filters on the applications to around 10-15% margin of error, so as not to exclude masculine looking women. That's probably why it took time for human admins to spot Ms Tickle on the site and question her biological sex.
This issue isn't going to go away any time soon. As long as women feel their safe spaces such as changing rooms, toilet facilities secure prison facilities, etc (in the main) are not fully safe, these other seemingly more trivial issues will crop up as well. It's bucking against the whole system.
Tough problem to solve without offending some group or another, really. [Post edited 23 Aug 2024 19:36]
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To be honest I don't think women will ever feel safe now. That's the problem. |  | | |
| Bonkers on 20:05 - Aug 23 with 3478 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 19:59 - Aug 23 by gtsb1966 |
To be honest I don't think women will ever feel safe now. That's the problem. |
We never really have, tbh. There will always be some situations where we will feel threatened by male presence, whether correctly perceived or not.
I've had my own unpleasant experiences, one of which in a place I should have felt safe, another when I had found myself inadvertently in a vulnerable environment.
I will carry those experiences with me for the rest of my life.
That the last few supposedly safe spaces could be compromised by an admittedly extremely small minority of deviants amongst people who just want to live their lives in peace is extremely sad, but doesn't seem to have a satisfactory answer that will appease both sides of the issue. | | | |
| Bonkers on 20:14 - Aug 23 with 3431 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Bonkers on 19:59 - Aug 23 by gtsb1966 |
To be honest I don't think women will ever feel safe now. That's the problem. |
To be honest, it's the buff looking men's men in their tight white t-shirts who are more likely to slip something in a woman's drink, take them off in a taxi semi-comatose, and then invite their mates over.
Women's safety is every man's responsibility, and it starts with not accepting any demeaning behaviour in any context.
And I would include demeaning trans women within that, too. |  | | |
| Bonkers on 20:18 - Aug 23 with 3401 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 20:14 - Aug 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
To be honest, it's the buff looking men's men in their tight white t-shirts who are more likely to slip something in a woman's drink, take them off in a taxi semi-comatose, and then invite their mates over.
Women's safety is every man's responsibility, and it starts with not accepting any demeaning behaviour in any context.
And I would include demeaning trans women within that, too. |
Neither of my unpleasant experiences were with men fitting that description you just posted. One was a twenty-something gothic punk, the other was an older man who you would never have expected to act that way. I think it's dangerous to stereotype anyone judging by their appearances alone. | | | |
| Bonkers on 20:26 - Aug 23 with 3284 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Bonkers on 20:18 - Aug 23 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Neither of my unpleasant experiences were with men fitting that description you just posted. One was a twenty-something gothic punk, the other was an older man who you would never have expected to act that way. I think it's dangerous to stereotype anyone judging by their appearances alone. |
I am sorry that you have experienced men behaving that appallingly.
But to answer your last sentence: absolutely, which takes us back to the top of the thread.
I used the qualifier "more likely". | | | |
| Bonkers on 20:38 - Aug 23 with 3213 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 20:26 - Aug 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I am sorry that you have experienced men behaving that appallingly.
But to answer your last sentence: absolutely, which takes us back to the top of the thread.
I used the qualifier "more likely". |
Thank you, Arnold.
I imagine you are a man who treats women respectfully. I wish there were more men out there that understood as you do what is acceptable, respectable behaviour. Most do, but many don't. | | | |
| Bonkers on 20:44 - Aug 23 with 3185 views | gtsb1966 |
| Bonkers on 20:38 - Aug 23 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Thank you, Arnold.
I imagine you are a man who treats women respectfully. I wish there were more men out there that understood as you do what is acceptable, respectable behaviour. Most do, but many don't. |
Serious question...do you regard Roxanne Tickle as a woman. I personally don't. Many will agree with me and many won't. This is where the problem lies especially with the original post. | | | |
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| Bonkers on 20:51 - Aug 23 with 3142 views | bazza |
| Bonkers on 20:44 - Aug 23 by gtsb1966 |
Serious question...do you regard Roxanne Tickle as a woman. I personally don't. Many will agree with me and many won't. This is where the problem lies especially with the original post. |
I just feel For my two non binary furrys, growing up in this crazy world. |  | | |
| Bonkers on 20:56 - Aug 23 with 3114 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 20:44 - Aug 23 by gtsb1966 |
Serious question...do you regard Roxanne Tickle as a woman. I personally don't. Many will agree with me and many won't. This is where the problem lies especially with the original post. |
Personally, I believe biological sex defines us, ultimately. xy or xx chromosomes run through every single cell in our bodies. Fact. As do male or female hormones.
However, I do feel that gender dysphoria is a genuine condition that could just as easily be affected by mental health as intersex development, or hormonal dysfunction.
I think, given the stigma, most trans-identifying people would prefer to live a quiet life, but I also think there is an element of very vociferous trans-activists that muddy the water. I suppose that's no different to far right activists ruining the genuine concerns of the everyday British by choosing to riot and disrupt over immigration issues. They are a small minority who make things very difficult by distorting the reasonable debate.
Extremism exists in many forms.
The best we can do is live and let live, with boundaries on safety and decency. | | | |
| Bonkers on 21:11 - Aug 23 with 3043 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Bonkers on 20:44 - Aug 23 by gtsb1966 |
Serious question...do you regard Roxanne Tickle as a woman. I personally don't. Many will agree with me and many won't. This is where the problem lies especially with the original post. |
How about: if any of us ever meet Roxanne, we just be kind and respectful, and if we need to address her directly, use the words that she would prefer, because it costs us nothing to do so.
I write this as somebody who twenty five years ago said precisely the wrong thing when a colleague was trying to come out to me as trans, causing her to backtrack and clam up.
A few glib comments, cheap jibes or clumsy jokes really can make a difference to trans people who are, statistically, more likely to be victims of sexual attacks, more likely to be victims of violence and are more likely to take their own lives, sadly, than the rest of the population.
We all have a duty to keep TWTD as a place where everyone feels welcome. Whilst it is impossible for a non-pre-moderated message board to be a completely safe space, it is important that those of us who want to safeguard Trans people from harm speak out so that they know who they can turn to for support. | | | |
| Bonkers on 21:16 - Aug 23 with 2999 views | J2BLUE |
| Bonkers on 21:11 - Aug 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
How about: if any of us ever meet Roxanne, we just be kind and respectful, and if we need to address her directly, use the words that she would prefer, because it costs us nothing to do so.
I write this as somebody who twenty five years ago said precisely the wrong thing when a colleague was trying to come out to me as trans, causing her to backtrack and clam up.
A few glib comments, cheap jibes or clumsy jokes really can make a difference to trans people who are, statistically, more likely to be victims of sexual attacks, more likely to be victims of violence and are more likely to take their own lives, sadly, than the rest of the population.
We all have a duty to keep TWTD as a place where everyone feels welcome. Whilst it is impossible for a non-pre-moderated message board to be a completely safe space, it is important that those of us who want to safeguard Trans people from harm speak out so that they know who they can turn to for support. |
Where do you stand on single sex spaces? |  |
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| Bonkers on 21:18 - Aug 23 with 2978 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 21:11 - Aug 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
How about: if any of us ever meet Roxanne, we just be kind and respectful, and if we need to address her directly, use the words that she would prefer, because it costs us nothing to do so.
I write this as somebody who twenty five years ago said precisely the wrong thing when a colleague was trying to come out to me as trans, causing her to backtrack and clam up.
A few glib comments, cheap jibes or clumsy jokes really can make a difference to trans people who are, statistically, more likely to be victims of sexual attacks, more likely to be victims of violence and are more likely to take their own lives, sadly, than the rest of the population.
We all have a duty to keep TWTD as a place where everyone feels welcome. Whilst it is impossible for a non-pre-moderated message board to be a completely safe space, it is important that those of us who want to safeguard Trans people from harm speak out so that they know who they can turn to for support. |
Using a person's preferred pronouns costs nothing, and shows respect for a fellow human being.
Equally, if someone (perhaps older generation, for example) struggles to adapt to that and makes a mistake or two, it should not automatically be considered a hate crime. It's about mutual accommodation, imho. | | | |
| Bonkers on 21:30 - Aug 23 with 2912 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Bonkers on 21:18 - Aug 23 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Using a person's preferred pronouns costs nothing, and shows respect for a fellow human being.
Equally, if someone (perhaps older generation, for example) struggles to adapt to that and makes a mistake or two, it should not automatically be considered a hate crime. It's about mutual accommodation, imho. |
Every trans person I know says that they instantly know when someone has made an innocent mistake, equally knows when someone is being provocative or nasty.
Sadly, in the example I gave above, I was being a thoughtless prick. The culture of the time, shaped by eg Little Britain and The League of Gentlemen, was to make jokes about trans people, especially trans women, and I made a stupid joke.
I am saying this because I don't want to come across as judgemental or holier than thou, and because reflecting on my own stupidity has been the motivation for me to support several Trans people in the years following. | | | |
| Bonkers on 21:35 - Aug 23 with 2893 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 20:14 - Aug 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
To be honest, it's the buff looking men's men in their tight white t-shirts who are more likely to slip something in a woman's drink, take them off in a taxi semi-comatose, and then invite their mates over.
Women's safety is every man's responsibility, and it starts with not accepting any demeaning behaviour in any context.
And I would include demeaning trans women within that, too. |
I would also say, too, that women's safety is also our own responsibility, as well as asking men to look out for us. When I lived in a big city in my early twenties, I put myself in situations where, had the wrong place and wrong time converged, I could have been at risk. But I was young, a Suffolk girl and a bit naïve.
I escaped with a warning.
Whilst the ideal world is to hope that nobody is evil, it is imperative that young women DON'T feel invincible or feel it's their right, because you aren't, and, sadly, it isn't going to be a right that is respected. And it's imperative that anyone who sees another human being in a potentially dangerous situation has the guts to approach them, or contact the police. [Post edited 24 Aug 2024 8:26]
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| Bonkers on 21:45 - Aug 23 with 2822 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 21:30 - Aug 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Every trans person I know says that they instantly know when someone has made an innocent mistake, equally knows when someone is being provocative or nasty.
Sadly, in the example I gave above, I was being a thoughtless prick. The culture of the time, shaped by eg Little Britain and The League of Gentlemen, was to make jokes about trans people, especially trans women, and I made a stupid joke.
I am saying this because I don't want to come across as judgemental or holier than thou, and because reflecting on my own stupidity has been the motivation for me to support several Trans people in the years following. |
Then you are truly a person who is going through life learning and trying not to make mistakes again. I think you are my kind of person. 🙂
What I would say is that it is ok to have certain opinions, as I do such as whether biological sex matters, without having to disrespect people who think differently. It's ok to have opinions. It's actually a huge debate in the science field right now, as to what makes a man/woman male/female. There are some extremely interesting debates on line if you find the decent, academic videos, rather than the politically motivated ones. | | | |
| Bonkers on 22:02 - Aug 23 with 2733 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Bonkers on 21:45 - Aug 23 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Then you are truly a person who is going through life learning and trying not to make mistakes again. I think you are my kind of person. 🙂
What I would say is that it is ok to have certain opinions, as I do such as whether biological sex matters, without having to disrespect people who think differently. It's ok to have opinions. It's actually a huge debate in the science field right now, as to what makes a man/woman male/female. There are some extremely interesting debates on line if you find the decent, academic videos, rather than the politically motivated ones. |
Thank you for your kind words.
Regarding your points: I am deeply concerned about Rapists with Penises self-declaring as Female and demanding to be sent to Women's prisons. This has happened. It massively skews the debate, and popular opinion.
I am also deeply concerned about the lack of proper counselling that a young trans man, who I work with, received before pharmaceutical, and then surgical, intervention.
It's an incredibly difficult subject, with much being worked out on the fly.
Which is why kindness and generosity are the best guides in navigating it. | | | |
| Bonkers on 22:13 - Aug 23 with 2684 views | gtsb1966 |
| Bonkers on 22:02 - Aug 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Thank you for your kind words.
Regarding your points: I am deeply concerned about Rapists with Penises self-declaring as Female and demanding to be sent to Women's prisons. This has happened. It massively skews the debate, and popular opinion.
I am also deeply concerned about the lack of proper counselling that a young trans man, who I work with, received before pharmaceutical, and then surgical, intervention.
It's an incredibly difficult subject, with much being worked out on the fly.
Which is why kindness and generosity are the best guides in navigating it. |
J2 asked you a question. Feel free to reply. | | | |
| Bonkers on 22:25 - Aug 23 with 2608 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 22:02 - Aug 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Thank you for your kind words.
Regarding your points: I am deeply concerned about Rapists with Penises self-declaring as Female and demanding to be sent to Women's prisons. This has happened. It massively skews the debate, and popular opinion.
I am also deeply concerned about the lack of proper counselling that a young trans man, who I work with, received before pharmaceutical, and then surgical, intervention.
It's an incredibly difficult subject, with much being worked out on the fly.
Which is why kindness and generosity are the best guides in navigating it. |
The Cass Report certainly raised valid points for debate on the issue of therapy and mental health support being the first line of treatment.
An alarming number of young people who present as gender dysphoric also have comorbidity with autism spectrum. This, in itself, presents young people with feelings of not belonging or the feeling of being uncomfortable in their own skin.
In most other avenues of medicine, the go-to method of treatment is minimally invasive first.
I can't believe that this issue shouldn't be treated the same. An assertive and pointed effort at tackling mental health and how to cope with feelings of dysphoria is surely safer than puberty blockers and ultimately cutting off body parts when someone is not yet an adult, and their pre-frontal cortex (decision-making part of the brain) is not fully developed until in their twenties. It seems only logical that you manage the mental health until these young ones get to chose autonomy. We have an adult limit in law for a reason. [Post edited 24 Aug 2024 8:28]
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| Bonkers on 22:44 - Aug 23 with 2520 views | lowhouseblue |
| Bonkers on 22:25 - Aug 23 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
The Cass Report certainly raised valid points for debate on the issue of therapy and mental health support being the first line of treatment.
An alarming number of young people who present as gender dysphoric also have comorbidity with autism spectrum. This, in itself, presents young people with feelings of not belonging or the feeling of being uncomfortable in their own skin.
In most other avenues of medicine, the go-to method of treatment is minimally invasive first.
I can't believe that this issue shouldn't be treated the same. An assertive and pointed effort at tackling mental health and how to cope with feelings of dysphoria is surely safer than puberty blockers and ultimately cutting off body parts when someone is not yet an adult, and their pre-frontal cortex (decision-making part of the brain) is not fully developed until in their twenties. It seems only logical that you manage the mental health until these young ones get to chose autonomy. We have an adult limit in law for a reason. [Post edited 24 Aug 2024 8:28]
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it's not exactly cutting off body parts, but more medicated hormonal changes affecting bone, brain, fertility and sexual development. if in many cases what is presenting is essentially developmental (accepting also such other underlying associated conditions as autism as you mention) such side effects, without serious clinical evidence of benefit, seem indefensible. dysphoria seems also to be associated in young women with puberty and a rejection of body changes and menstruation and many see it in the same category as eating disorders. [Post edited 23 Aug 2024 22:45]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Bonkers on 22:46 - Aug 23 with 2473 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 22:25 - Aug 23 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
The Cass Report certainly raised valid points for debate on the issue of therapy and mental health support being the first line of treatment.
An alarming number of young people who present as gender dysphoric also have comorbidity with autism spectrum. This, in itself, presents young people with feelings of not belonging or the feeling of being uncomfortable in their own skin.
In most other avenues of medicine, the go-to method of treatment is minimally invasive first.
I can't believe that this issue shouldn't be treated the same. An assertive and pointed effort at tackling mental health and how to cope with feelings of dysphoria is surely safer than puberty blockers and ultimately cutting off body parts when someone is not yet an adult, and their pre-frontal cortex (decision-making part of the brain) is not fully developed until in their twenties. It seems only logical that you manage the mental health until these young ones get to chose autonomy. We have an adult limit in law for a reason. [Post edited 24 Aug 2024 8:28]
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But, a big concern, certainly in this area is the lack of mental health support on the NHS. I got referred for ADHD assessment over 2 years ago. The wait list time was 12-18 months. Then I got a letter to say it is 18-24 months, and now, post 24 months, there is radio silence. It's actually quite soul destroying.
Adequate and speedy mental health support is needed for gender dysphoric people. [Post edited 24 Aug 2024 8:31]
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| Bonkers on 22:50 - Aug 23 with 2379 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 22:44 - Aug 23 by lowhouseblue |
it's not exactly cutting off body parts, but more medicated hormonal changes affecting bone, brain, fertility and sexual development. if in many cases what is presenting is essentially developmental (accepting also such other underlying associated conditions as autism as you mention) such side effects, without serious clinical evidence of benefit, seem indefensible. dysphoria seems also to be associated in young women with puberty and a rejection of body changes and menstruation and many see it in the same category as eating disorders. [Post edited 23 Aug 2024 22:45]
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I've often wondered in disbelief at the readiness at which doctors prescribe the pill. Did you know that the only reason that the pill instructions suggest that you take it for 21 days and have a week off, is that (male) doctors figured that women would want to have a period to feel 'normal'?
Male dominated medicine for 100s of years has impacted progress. Most lab rats are male, because female rats have hormonal cycles and it is more expensive to work out how mainstream medicine works with the female hormone cycle.
So, ultimately, women's health is treated on a male health model. [Post edited 23 Aug 2024 22:53]
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| Bonkers on 23:00 - Aug 23 with 2305 views | lowhouseblue |
| Bonkers on 22:50 - Aug 23 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
I've often wondered in disbelief at the readiness at which doctors prescribe the pill. Did you know that the only reason that the pill instructions suggest that you take it for 21 days and have a week off, is that (male) doctors figured that women would want to have a period to feel 'normal'?
Male dominated medicine for 100s of years has impacted progress. Most lab rats are male, because female rats have hormonal cycles and it is more expensive to work out how mainstream medicine works with the female hormone cycle.
So, ultimately, women's health is treated on a male health model. [Post edited 23 Aug 2024 22:53]
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i did not know that about lab rats.
i only realised that the standard 21 day pill cycle wasn't medically required from reading about women playing sport professionally / at a high level. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Bonkers on 23:15 - Aug 23 with 2215 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 22:44 - Aug 23 by lowhouseblue |
it's not exactly cutting off body parts, but more medicated hormonal changes affecting bone, brain, fertility and sexual development. if in many cases what is presenting is essentially developmental (accepting also such other underlying associated conditions as autism as you mention) such side effects, without serious clinical evidence of benefit, seem indefensible. dysphoria seems also to be associated in young women with puberty and a rejection of body changes and menstruation and many see it in the same category as eating disorders. [Post edited 23 Aug 2024 22:45]
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The danger that has been, in my opinion, rightly flagged up, is that we don't have any long term studies showing the effects of puberty blockers on children. In any other serious study, there would have been much more cautious trials to ascertain safety before treatment. It scares me that this avenue is being pushed as medical standard , surgery which fundamentally alters a human being, and an adolescent at that, and hasn't been more stringently governed.
This is not an appendectomy or a gallbladder surgery, this is removal of sexual organs and breasts, most often irreversibly, because, if you change your mind, the NHS don't want to know, so you pay privately. So, as such a cosmetic surgery. Also, there are a growing number of videos being posted online from transitioners that have de-transitioned. I don't want to disrespect those who feel they need to identify differently, but there are a big number of transitioners that realise, after the fact, that transitioning was wrong for them.
I just hope anyone out there chooses to research thoroughly before making a decision. Choose the best version of you. . [Post edited 23 Aug 2024 23:21]
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| Bonkers on 23:17 - Aug 23 with 2200 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Bonkers on 23:00 - Aug 23 by lowhouseblue |
i did not know that about lab rats.
i only realised that the standard 21 day pill cycle wasn't medically required from reading about women playing sport professionally / at a high level. |
Found that out from a female hormone expert on an ADHD podcast in YouTube. Happy to find you the links if you require. 🙂 | | | |
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