| Remembrance day 06:14 - Nov 11 with 1564 views | gtsb1966 |
A long read this but something really stood out for me. As a child nearly all my mates had grandads that had fought in WW2. I had a grandad who had fought in WW1 and another in WW2. I remember both . Now it is estimated there are less than 8000 British WW2 veterans left and the youngest is 98. How time flies.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d641vz93qo [Post edited 11 Nov 6:43]
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| Remembrance day on 08:04 - Nov 11 with 1413 views | DJR |
It also seems like no time at all since documentaries featuring the last surviving veterans from WW1. [Post edited 11 Nov 8:05]
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| Remembrance day on 08:15 - Nov 11 with 1393 views | Churchman |
Thank you for posting this. It’s well worth a read.
It is easy to forget that the World wars define our world as much as the Victorians that built it. My parents generation and older served in WW2 (my dad just missed it, my mum served in the ATS) and my grandparents generation WW1. I never knew my mum’s father. He died prematurely in the 50s, hardly helped by being wounded out in early 1918.
Many of my teachers served in WW2 or had been in the military and attitudes on everything from food (you must eat it up!) to discipline was forged by it - including the Welfare State some seek to destroy. All created for a reason. Something good from something beyond comprehension.
The act of Remembrance has changed over time. It was borderline minority interest when I was a child. Everyone remembered because everyone (adults) was there. Poppies had ‘Haig Fund’ embossed on the button because that oft maligned figure Earl Haig started it.
The Cenotaph remembrance, Lutyens structure in Whitehall (it actually has a coffin on the top if you look at it) were temporary and the memorial was made of wood initially. It was meant to be a one off.
The government neither liked or wanted it, but they had a problem. The people demanded it. The main reason was the Victorian principle that you must have a body to mourn. The bodies were either in foreign lands or no longer existed. This feeling was so powerful 1000s of bereaved went out to France and places to find their relations including Mr and Mrs Kipling who spent ten years searching for their son in France.
There was a lot of resentment that bodies were not repatriated, especially after Gladstone’s grandson’s was early in the war. From this came the unknown warrior and all we see today.
To the present, I’ve seen Remembrance take on new meaning in recent decades, especially after 2008. It means many things to many people as it should. I’ve no objection if people avoid it or dislike it. The war was fought to give people the right to choose. Freedom. As long as they leave those alone to whom it means something.
Remembrance for me means something. I’ve paraded at the Cenotaph and helped out in a number of roles on Horseguards many times over the years for my reasons that are not for here. My privilege along with attending the odd Charity lunch every year. The 10,000 that gather there do so for all sorts of reasons. To remember and to meet their mates are the primary reasons. For war widows, their reasons are obvious.
Whilst the veterans are proud of their Regiment etc there is no ‘glory’ in it. If you’ve seen bad stuff, you’ll know that. Pride in many cases, yes. Also reunion, to have fun, share memories especially in the pubs after, but when it comes to it, they’re there to remember. Maybe surprisingly, they take a lot of interest in youth groups that parade (Boys Brigade, Guides etc). Many see young people as a primary reason they did what the did.
Some choose not to attend. My father in law who served in the navy in Europe and the Far East wanted nothing to with it. Not for me was his view. He was a member of the NVA etc but was private about it. My mum’s father gave his medals to his parents and said he never wanted to see them again. Both these people lived primarily to put their experiences behind them.
So in conclusion to this particular rant, it is my view that the generations that follow these people should remember. In particular what those and people of subsequent generations gave (including former enemies swallowed up by the madness) and how fragile peace and freedom of speech are.
In a world that seems ever more dangerous with Putin and the crazy people Remembrance takes on an even deeper meaning for me. [Post edited 12 Nov 4:32]
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| Remembrance day on 08:16 - Nov 11 with 1391 views | Churchman |
| Remembrance day on 08:04 - Nov 11 by DJR |
It also seems like no time at all since documentaries featuring the last surviving veterans from WW1. [Post edited 11 Nov 8:05]
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Me too. I was actually at the Cenotaph when the last three laid their wreaths. Seems like yesterday. | | | |
| Remembrance day on 10:33 - Nov 11 with 1249 views | MrPotatoHead |
My grandfather was a prisoner of WW2, I think it impacted him deeply although he always put on a brave face. He's long since passed and would be 109 now.
Lest we forget. |  | | |
| Remembrance day on 20:43 - Nov 11 with 1099 views | Guthrum |
Since May 1945 we have had:
Greece
Palestine
Malaya
Korea
Kenya
Cyprus
Suez
Indonesian Confrontation
Aden
Northern Ireland
Falklands
1991 Gulf War
Bosnia
Kossovo
Sierra Leone
Afghanistan
2003 Iraq
Libya
Plus numerous other small-scale actions and conflicts. All involving UK troops and, in most cases, casualties.
The date may be tied to the First World War, but it'll be a long time before there are no veterans left of all those. |  |
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| Remembrance day on 04:48 - Nov 12 with 957 views | Churchman |
| Remembrance day on 10:33 - Nov 11 by MrPotatoHead |
My grandfather was a prisoner of WW2, I think it impacted him deeply although he always put on a brave face. He's long since passed and would be 109 now.
Lest we forget. |
I’m sure it did affect him deeply. It must be unimaginable to be caged with no knowledge of whether you’d survive it. After Hamburg was destroyed Goebbels wanted all RAF prisoners shot in reprisal. It was a serious proposal and was considered. The Luftwaffe objected on the basis of what’d happen to their prisoners? Goebbels then wanted to know how many German Luftwaffe personnel were in British/Canadian captivity. Subtract that number from British prisoners and shoot the surplus.
Fortunately the more sane ignored that one. But it shows you how captured servicemen’s lives hung by a thread. And what madmen try to do when they get power - and I think that we can say that piece of dirt was crazy. Literally to the point of murdering his own children.
Minimal food, poor conditions and then at the end of it, many were herded into the ‘the long March’. Starved, no adequate clothing, forced marched west as the Russians drew near. Many died and survivors had to live with what they endured.
Little wonder so many wanted to lock those memories away.
Lest we forget. | | | |
| Remembrance day on 08:56 - Nov 12 with 874 views | noggin |
| Remembrance day on 04:48 - Nov 12 by Churchman |
I’m sure it did affect him deeply. It must be unimaginable to be caged with no knowledge of whether you’d survive it. After Hamburg was destroyed Goebbels wanted all RAF prisoners shot in reprisal. It was a serious proposal and was considered. The Luftwaffe objected on the basis of what’d happen to their prisoners? Goebbels then wanted to know how many German Luftwaffe personnel were in British/Canadian captivity. Subtract that number from British prisoners and shoot the surplus.
Fortunately the more sane ignored that one. But it shows you how captured servicemen’s lives hung by a thread. And what madmen try to do when they get power - and I think that we can say that piece of dirt was crazy. Literally to the point of murdering his own children.
Minimal food, poor conditions and then at the end of it, many were herded into the ‘the long March’. Starved, no adequate clothing, forced marched west as the Russians drew near. Many died and survivors had to live with what they endured.
Little wonder so many wanted to lock those memories away.
Lest we forget. |
I recently visited the sites where 2 RAF bombers that were shot down by German fighter aircraft, over Southern Norway, during WW2.
The wreckage has been left scattered in the forests where they came down.
It's a very moving experience to walk amongst the large pieces of fuselage and engine, where young airmen lost their lives. I could, had I wanted to, pick up a large piece of a cockpit, complete with side window, knowing that one of the airmen would have been sitting there. It was a deeply humbling experience.
German soldiers retrieved the bodies, and according to local accounts, gave them very respectful burials at local church graveyards. The graves are still there today and are well maintained by the local authorities.
[Post edited 12 Nov 10:01]
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| Remembrance day on 10:27 - Nov 12 with 801 views | Churchman |
| Remembrance day on 08:56 - Nov 12 by noggin |
I recently visited the sites where 2 RAF bombers that were shot down by German fighter aircraft, over Southern Norway, during WW2.
The wreckage has been left scattered in the forests where they came down.
It's a very moving experience to walk amongst the large pieces of fuselage and engine, where young airmen lost their lives. I could, had I wanted to, pick up a large piece of a cockpit, complete with side window, knowing that one of the airmen would have been sitting there. It was a deeply humbling experience.
German soldiers retrieved the bodies, and according to local accounts, gave them very respectful burials at local church graveyards. The graves are still there today and are well maintained by the local authorities.
[Post edited 12 Nov 10:01]
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Respectful burials/full military honours was quite common with airmen on both sides, particularly where the respective air forces were involved.
The last German pilot killed over Britain was Hauptmann (Captain) Richard Pahl whose Me410 was shot down over Brighton in April 1944 by a DH Mosquito night fighter. He was buried in Brighton cemetery with full military honours. His family were notified, sent a photograph of the funeral and visited after the war. His crew member Wilhelm Schuberth also died and was buried at Cannock Chase.
People in occupied countries went to extraordinary lengths to look after the graves of airmen buried in their countries, often at personal risk from the Gestapo or SS. Brave people who never forget. | | | |
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| Remembrance day on 10:53 - Nov 12 with 772 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
I've met 13 WW2 veterans over the last 18 months and each conversation and meeting(s) was a true pleasure. Really should have started sooner and I really need to get back to it as it's gone into a lull in recent months. Sadly five of those I've met have since passed away already.
If anyone knows of anyone who'd be up for meeting for a chat please let me know! |  |
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| Remembrance day on 12:12 - Nov 12 with 718 views | Benters |
I went to the service yesterday on the green to pay my respects.It wasn’t as busy as the Sunday service,but then a lot of people were working I guess.
The school children had little wooden crosses with the names of the soldiers lost on them and pushed them in to a long planter,people laid wreaths and some had painted stones with messages on them.
Getting back to the thread my Great Uncle was a Wheelwright in Ardleigh Essex,he was such a kind gentle man,the family only found out quite recently that during WW1 he was a sniper rifleman.He was one of those who never spoke of it it ever. |  |
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| Remembrance day on 13:00 - Nov 12 with 672 views | Churchman |
| Remembrance day on 12:12 - Nov 12 by Benters |
I went to the service yesterday on the green to pay my respects.It wasn’t as busy as the Sunday service,but then a lot of people were working I guess.
The school children had little wooden crosses with the names of the soldiers lost on them and pushed them in to a long planter,people laid wreaths and some had painted stones with messages on them.
Getting back to the thread my Great Uncle was a Wheelwright in Ardleigh Essex,he was such a kind gentle man,the family only found out quite recently that during WW1 he was a sniper rifleman.He was one of those who never spoke of it it ever. |
That was a hideously dangerous job. And a skilled one that would have commanded extra pay - deservedly.
Snipers on both sides were hated, targeted and invariably killed if captured. One of my grandfather’s few stories concerned a German sniper caught by the Royal Scots to whom his field company was attached. They came across the Scots slowly kicking the German to death.
The REs (208 field company (Norfolk) didn’t like the torture element and a violent argument ensued. An RE shot the sniper dead and they and the Scots then nearly started shooting at each other until an officer stepped in.
My mum says he loathed the Scots after his lot were attached to them for a couple of months and never lost his dislike. It reads as a little extreme as a view and a generalisation now, but the horror of a conflict like that leaves the strangest of marks.
Back to the role of a sniper, it’s no surprise your relation didn’t talk about it. That really is a heavy burden to live with. The rifle he would have used was a 1914 pattern .303 Enfield. A round like that would go through a brick wall. You can imagine the rest.
RIP a very brave man. | | | |
| Remembrance day on 13:17 - Nov 12 with 654 views | MrPotatoHead |
| Remembrance day on 13:00 - Nov 12 by Churchman |
That was a hideously dangerous job. And a skilled one that would have commanded extra pay - deservedly.
Snipers on both sides were hated, targeted and invariably killed if captured. One of my grandfather’s few stories concerned a German sniper caught by the Royal Scots to whom his field company was attached. They came across the Scots slowly kicking the German to death.
The REs (208 field company (Norfolk) didn’t like the torture element and a violent argument ensued. An RE shot the sniper dead and they and the Scots then nearly started shooting at each other until an officer stepped in.
My mum says he loathed the Scots after his lot were attached to them for a couple of months and never lost his dislike. It reads as a little extreme as a view and a generalisation now, but the horror of a conflict like that leaves the strangest of marks.
Back to the role of a sniper, it’s no surprise your relation didn’t talk about it. That really is a heavy burden to live with. The rifle he would have used was a 1914 pattern .303 Enfield. A round like that would go through a brick wall. You can imagine the rest.
RIP a very brave man. |
Your posts on this site are excellent by the way Churchman. | | | |
| Remembrance day on 13:27 - Nov 12 with 634 views | Churchman |
| Remembrance day on 13:17 - Nov 12 by MrPotatoHead |
Your posts on this site are excellent by the way Churchman. |
Thank you.
As a postscript the killing of prisoners varied but was fairly common practice. It was literally luck whether you survived capture or not and by whom. If you were a flame thrower operator, sniper or a member of a tank crew (introduced on the Somme in 1916), forget it. Even a machine gunner was in a lot of trouble.
WW1 is hard to get one’s head around because of the sheer scale and it appears literally a static slog.
It actually wasn’t like that and the more I look into it, the more interesting (and ghastly) it is for me.
[Post edited 12 Nov 13:32]
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| Remembrance day on 16:14 - Nov 12 with 578 views | Benters |
| Remembrance day on 13:17 - Nov 12 by MrPotatoHead |
Your posts on this site are excellent by the way Churchman. |
I agree they are. | |
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| Remembrance day on 17:54 - Nov 12 with 546 views | Bluespeed225 |
In September I visited Anzio, found my Grandfather’s grave . No one has ever been, Nana remarrying quite soon after the War. He kind of got a bit lost in the family history. So glad I went. Quite a moment to see it as it came up in front of me. He was 32, not a kid, with a 7 year old son.
Join the Ipswich War Memorial page on FB. The background to the names, home addresses, streets you know well, the occupations at those famous old Ipswich companies, really bring home what everyone, especially those at home, went through. |  | | |
| Remembrance day on 18:36 - Nov 12 with 511 views | Churchman |
| Remembrance day on 17:54 - Nov 12 by Bluespeed225 |
In September I visited Anzio, found my Grandfather’s grave . No one has ever been, Nana remarrying quite soon after the War. He kind of got a bit lost in the family history. So glad I went. Quite a moment to see it as it came up in front of me. He was 32, not a kid, with a 7 year old son.
Join the Ipswich War Memorial page on FB. The background to the names, home addresses, streets you know well, the occupations at those famous old Ipswich companies, really bring home what everyone, especially those at home, went through. |
Thank you for posting this.
RIP your grandfather and well done for doing what you did. | | | |
| Remembrance day on 21:49 - Nov 12 with 470 views | Bluespeed225 |
| Remembrance day on 18:36 - Nov 12 by Churchman |
Thank you for posting this.
RIP your grandfather and well done for doing what you did. |
Anzio is acutally a really nice little fishing port town. A bit of a weekend retreat for well heeled Romans. Nettuno, a couple of miles along the coast saw the bulk of the landings, and has a big Ipswich connection via a religious relic! Ippo on all sorts of signs! The y really love the relic, used to be in a church in Lady Lane, taken by Cromwells lot, flogged to the Catholics. Boat sank, it was rescued, stands proudly in Nettuno main church!
Roger Waters father was also lost at Anzio, hes also featured a lot around town. | | | |
| Remembrance day on 22:10 - Nov 12 with 413 views | Churchman |
| Remembrance day on 21:49 - Nov 12 by Bluespeed225 |
Anzio is acutally a really nice little fishing port town. A bit of a weekend retreat for well heeled Romans. Nettuno, a couple of miles along the coast saw the bulk of the landings, and has a big Ipswich connection via a religious relic! Ippo on all sorts of signs! The y really love the relic, used to be in a church in Lady Lane, taken by Cromwells lot, flogged to the Catholics. Boat sank, it was rescued, stands proudly in Nettuno main church!
Roger Waters father was also lost at Anzio, hes also featured a lot around town. |
To my shame, beyond knowing the Anzio landings were an attempt to relieve pressure on Cassino and it finished in a prolonged, ghastly siege (over 40,000 casualties on each side - wiki), my knowledge of the landings and Italian campaign in general is pretty wretched. Apologies. I actually have some Kindle books to read up on it and will. It was another forgotten war.
I’m actually lunching with a good friend in London tomorrow. Her father fought and survived the Battle of Monte Cassino - an absolute horror show. He survived and she has his medals, but he never talked about it and she knows nothing about the campaign beyond that.
I shall try and learn more for her before our next meet up. | | | |
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