| MP's get to vote then on 11:56 - Jan 24 with 2278 views | vapour_trail |
| MP's get to vote then on 11:43 - Jan 24 by itfcjoe |
It's not about being sneaky - it's about ensuring that the wishes of the people, after they have been presented with the facts of what the exit will entail, happen.
Whichever way that goes, then there wouldn't be all this drama over it. If an actual proposal was put to the table and agreed then neither the Remainer's or the Brexiters could have any complaints surely?
Ultimately - it isn't a race - it's more important to come up with the correct decision than to rush it - whichever way that goes? [Post edited 24 Jan 2017 11:44]
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I think this country, politicians, media and public alike, have already proven themselves completely incapable of running a grown up debate on this issue, so to go and revisit that process wouldn't be a great idea.
We voted out, all we need is some political leadership with enough competence to lead us through the process. |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 11:58 - Jan 24 with 2268 views | Darth_Koont |
| MP's get to vote then on 11:38 - Jan 24 by J2BLUE |
I have no issue with Scotland but they have far too much say for their share of the population. If they want to leave and rule themselves then good luck to them. If they stay they should accept being part of the UK means having a fair say but not being the spoilt child of the union. Before the vote people happily talked about a landslide vote in Scotland being key to keeping the entire UK in the EU but now it has gone the other way it is suddenly 'democratically unacceptable'.
I don't think they will accept a fair say so i'd prefer it if they took independence. I'd wish them well. I completely understand their frustration. |
Well, you show little sign of understanding the frustration.
Your characterization is half of the frustration. This idea that Scotland (or Northern Ireland or Wales for that matter) should only have a say when it doesn't interfere with the rest of the UK ... that's just having the boot on the other foot for a rare 10 minutes.
It's also annoying to see Westminster pretty much cave in to other disaffected parts of England and the population because it's electorally and politically significant, never mind that these frustrations (and the likely hard Brexit response) have less of a basis in reality. You could much better argue that the problem and response was the need for a committed regional regeneration plan, putting the security back into social security, and a stop to the unbelievably harsh austerity measures on local councils. But no, that doesn't fit the narrow ideology of the current government and the middle England voter.
We're tired of where we're heading as a country including the direction of its politics. As in right vs. wrong not just shades of opinion in between. [Post edited 24 Jan 2017 12:00]
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| MP's get to vote then on 12:03 - Jan 24 with 2255 views | CaptainObvious |
| MP's get to vote then on 11:55 - Jan 24 by itfcjoe |
I personally don't agree - leave or stay was far too simplistic a question and without any real knowledge of what leaving (or staying) really entailed most people were voting blind.
If the government were able to negotiate a good deal then it will likely go through, if they can't then why should the people suffer because they were lied to at the start of the process.
Seems silly to do anything with haste with all this 'Brexit means Brexit' rubbish when it could, quite easily, be a bad thing for the country by the time we are doing it and obvious it is a bad thing to be doing. |
yes it was a simplistic question, but it was proposed in the manifesto of the party that won a majority at the General Election, so it has happened and any attempts to reverse the result of a referendum via the backdoor will lead to such civil unrest and instability that leaving the eu will be a walk in the park in comparison. |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 12:19 - Jan 24 with 2200 views | GlasgowBlue |
| MP's get to vote then on 11:17 - Jan 24 by itfcjoe |
If a majority of people can't agree on how we should change then we should stay as we are.... |
But we voted to leave. |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 12:20 - Jan 24 with 2198 views | GlasgowBlue |
| MP's get to vote then on 11:17 - Jan 24 by Vic |
what happens if they vote against it? (Which could happen) |
Then we should have a general election. | |
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| Feckin too right... on 12:23 - Jan 24 with 2190 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Feckin too right... on 11:37 - Jan 24 by giant_stow |
He's right though - even GB, a politico, doesn't seem to understand what was voted on and importantly, what wasn't. |
You are making stuff up. I understand completely what was voted on. Whether we stay or leave the European Union. The ramifications of which were explained to the electorate by both sides. | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 12:24 - Jan 24 with 2193 views | oldbluestu |
| MP's get to vote then on 10:44 - Jan 24 by itfcjoe |
I agree with the Lib Dems, let the people vote on the actual deal |
Pity the Lib Dems didn't call for that when they climbed into bed with Conservatives. The Country wasn't asked if they were happy with a Con/Lib Dem government deal, funny how they're calling for the country to vote on the Brexit deal |  | | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 12:36 - Jan 24 with 2156 views | Vic |
| MP's get to vote then on 11:55 - Jan 24 by itfcjoe |
I personally don't agree - leave or stay was far too simplistic a question and without any real knowledge of what leaving (or staying) really entailed most people were voting blind.
If the government were able to negotiate a good deal then it will likely go through, if they can't then why should the people suffer because they were lied to at the start of the process.
Seems silly to do anything with haste with all this 'Brexit means Brexit' rubbish when it could, quite easily, be a bad thing for the country by the time we are doing it and obvious it is a bad thing to be doing. |
Thing is that at the time no one really knew (and still doesn't) what leaving would mean. Already we've seen that the predictions of immediate apocalypse were wildly wide of the mark - though surely turbulent days are ahead. Thing is no one knows what it will be like until the negotiations have been concluded.
To say now that we'd have another vote would be to scupper any possibility of getting the best deal we can - the government wouldn't really try and Europe would certainly play hardball so we'd vote t stay in.
The only hope to get the best deal is to push through and negotiate on the basis that we are going to leave and see where we get to. Even if there is a smidgeon of thought that there may be a second vote no government rep would let it pass their lips.
So I don;t think the government had or has any alternative but to proceed the way they have. But I do hope that at the end of the day there will be another vote, so I can agree or disagree with some concrete terms and not just vote on a concept. |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 12:40 - Jan 24 with 2132 views | bournemouthblue |
| MP's get to vote then on 10:08 - Jan 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Why would they even want to? The courts have ruled that the Jocks, Welsh and Northern Irish governments can't put a spoke in the wheels and MP's have already voted by 461 to 89 in favour of triggering Article 50 by the end of March. |
What a tremendous waste of time and money this has been
Why did they even bother to appeal it? |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 13:03 - Jan 24 with 2114 views | Pinewoodblue |
| MP's get to vote then on 11:46 - Jan 24 by No9 |
You are correct, this 'government has no mandate at all'
Regarding your second para, it is obvious they are out of their depth & just blowing £ billions of taxpayer cash. |
The government did have a mandate. They passed responsibility onto the electorate and agreed to go with the majority, no matter how small. It was an over simplified choice In or Out.
It was known from the outset that if the vote was to leave the only way this could be done was to trigger article 50. With the vote to leave government resumed responsibility but, in my view, didn't need a parliamentary vote on the subject as Parliament had already agreed to accept the wishes of the majority who voted.
When the dust settles think we will begin to see that the appeal went ahead to establish the sovereign power of Wedtminster over the devolved assemblies in Scotland, Northern Ireland & Wales.
I suspect the SNP will consider taking this to the European court as they cannot be happy with the outcome. This is far from over. |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 13:16 - Jan 24 with 2104 views | J2BLUE |
| MP's get to vote then on 11:58 - Jan 24 by Darth_Koont |
Well, you show little sign of understanding the frustration.
Your characterization is half of the frustration. This idea that Scotland (or Northern Ireland or Wales for that matter) should only have a say when it doesn't interfere with the rest of the UK ... that's just having the boot on the other foot for a rare 10 minutes.
It's also annoying to see Westminster pretty much cave in to other disaffected parts of England and the population because it's electorally and politically significant, never mind that these frustrations (and the likely hard Brexit response) have less of a basis in reality. You could much better argue that the problem and response was the need for a committed regional regeneration plan, putting the security back into social security, and a stop to the unbelievably harsh austerity measures on local councils. But no, that doesn't fit the narrow ideology of the current government and the middle England voter.
We're tired of where we're heading as a country including the direction of its politics. As in right vs. wrong not just shades of opinion in between. [Post edited 24 Jan 2017 12:00]
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I'm saying you should accept a fair say based on population or have a referendum and leave. I think that is fair. I don't expect a Scottish nationalist to agree with me. To give Scotland an equal say to England would just be wrong when England has ten times the population.
I have no ill will towards Scotland. I'd wish you well if you left. I just think it would be best if you did. Just my opinion. |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 13:33 - Jan 24 with 2066 views | GlasgowBlue |
| MP's get to vote then on 13:16 - Jan 24 by J2BLUE |
I'm saying you should accept a fair say based on population or have a referendum and leave. I think that is fair. I don't expect a Scottish nationalist to agree with me. To give Scotland an equal say to England would just be wrong when England has ten times the population.
I have no ill will towards Scotland. I'd wish you well if you left. I just think it would be best if you did. Just my opinion. |
The majority don't want to leave. Just because Sturgeon shouts the loudest doesn't mean her views on independence are representative of the majority of people living in Scotland. | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 13:36 - Jan 24 with 2064 views | J2BLUE |
| MP's get to vote then on 13:33 - Jan 24 by GlasgowBlue |
The majority don't want to leave. Just because Sturgeon shouts the loudest doesn't mean her views on independence are representative of the majority of people living in Scotland. |
I know that but I don't think that changes my point. | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 13:38 - Jan 24 with 2062 views | Keno |
| MP's get to vote then on 13:33 - Jan 24 by GlasgowBlue |
The majority don't want to leave. Just because Sturgeon shouts the loudest doesn't mean her views on independence are representative of the majority of people living in Scotland. |
if and please not the if I was going to be pedantic shouldn't that be "of those who voted the majority don't want to leave" |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 13:48 - Jan 24 with 2050 views | Darth_Koont |
| MP's get to vote then on 13:16 - Jan 24 by J2BLUE |
I'm saying you should accept a fair say based on population or have a referendum and leave. I think that is fair. I don't expect a Scottish nationalist to agree with me. To give Scotland an equal say to England would just be wrong when England has ten times the population.
I have no ill will towards Scotland. I'd wish you well if you left. I just think it would be best if you did. Just my opinion. |
All a bit glib, I'm afraid.
A modern, civilized society isn't based on "a fair say based on population" and it's certainly not how the UK political system works. At the final reckoning, it's about representing the concerns of all citizens in a fair way, not always looking at the majority but also doing our utmost to make sure the minority has a good deal on their own terms. I assumed that this was one of our more sacred British values but seems that this is dying out.
And you consistently confuse the real concerns in Scotland with nationalistic issues rather than the underlying social and political issues we face as an entire country and particularly across many, different regions. It's a bit galling to have these concerns hijacked by largely self-serving and otherwise irrelevant anti-immigration and anti-foreigner sentiment while we're told to pipe down, play the game or get out.
Your idea that we're free and easy to choose to leave is also pretty shallow. On whose terms? What 90% of the UK decide is fair for them?
I get that you don't care but that's more about how simplistically you see things. | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 13:58 - Jan 24 with 2031 views | J2BLUE |
| MP's get to vote then on 13:48 - Jan 24 by Darth_Koont |
All a bit glib, I'm afraid.
A modern, civilized society isn't based on "a fair say based on population" and it's certainly not how the UK political system works. At the final reckoning, it's about representing the concerns of all citizens in a fair way, not always looking at the majority but also doing our utmost to make sure the minority has a good deal on their own terms. I assumed that this was one of our more sacred British values but seems that this is dying out.
And you consistently confuse the real concerns in Scotland with nationalistic issues rather than the underlying social and political issues we face as an entire country and particularly across many, different regions. It's a bit galling to have these concerns hijacked by largely self-serving and otherwise irrelevant anti-immigration and anti-foreigner sentiment while we're told to pipe down, play the game or get out.
Your idea that we're free and easy to choose to leave is also pretty shallow. On whose terms? What 90% of the UK decide is fair for them?
I get that you don't care but that's more about how simplistically you see things. |
You make a fair point about the deal you'd get if you left although last time it seemed like the Scottish government were cherry picking exactly what they wanted. I remember arguing with you back then about Scotland keeping the pound.
You say 'it's about representing the concerns of all citizens in a fair way' which I agree with but when there is a UK wide issue like Brexit surely Scotland should accept the result? Instead it is very clear that Sturgeon would do whatever it takes to delay, derail or, if she had the power, veto Brexit because it isn't in Scotland's interest. | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 14:01 - Jan 24 with 2019 views | No9 |
| MP's get to vote then on 13:03 - Jan 24 by Pinewoodblue |
The government did have a mandate. They passed responsibility onto the electorate and agreed to go with the majority, no matter how small. It was an over simplified choice In or Out.
It was known from the outset that if the vote was to leave the only way this could be done was to trigger article 50. With the vote to leave government resumed responsibility but, in my view, didn't need a parliamentary vote on the subject as Parliament had already agreed to accept the wishes of the majority who voted.
When the dust settles think we will begin to see that the appeal went ahead to establish the sovereign power of Wedtminster over the devolved assemblies in Scotland, Northern Ireland & Wales.
I suspect the SNP will consider taking this to the European court as they cannot be happy with the outcome. This is far from over. |
The point is that the Tory party set out their policies in the 2015 general election.
The corner stone of that both politically & economically was that they would re-negotiate the terms of membership of the EU.
The referendum was an in-out vote which they lost consequntly their mandate became null & void.
Mrs May was not elected as the leader & her party was not elected to lead the negotations to leave the EU & did so by trying to use a centuries old kings desire to avoid parliamentary procedures
Effectively the tories have now lost twice on the same issue.
I agree this is far from over & what all those wanting to leave need to understand that we have to leave before we can re-negotiate the terms of reference with the EU be that politically or in terms of trade &, it may in some circumstances come down to negotiating specific issues with the EU
In the meantime the EU has moved on and is working without the UK. The deal struck to give the Greater Anglia Franchise to Abellio (Dutch Co) was being financed by 'The European - BREXIT - Investment Bank.( Now a Japanese investor has taken a part of the Franchise. ) |  | | |
| MP's get to vote then on 14:19 - Jan 24 with 2001 views | Darth_Koont |
| MP's get to vote then on 13:58 - Jan 24 by J2BLUE |
You make a fair point about the deal you'd get if you left although last time it seemed like the Scottish government were cherry picking exactly what they wanted. I remember arguing with you back then about Scotland keeping the pound.
You say 'it's about representing the concerns of all citizens in a fair way' which I agree with but when there is a UK wide issue like Brexit surely Scotland should accept the result? Instead it is very clear that Sturgeon would do whatever it takes to delay, derail or, if she had the power, veto Brexit because it isn't in Scotland's interest. |
In the context of where a 52-48 Brexit (and its aftermath of anti-immigration politics) takes Scotland even further down a road it doesn't want to be on, Sturgeon can't just accept the result as is. And in any case she has accepted Brexit for the UK, but wants it still part of the overall debate over Scotland's future place in the world.
The pound is part of the whole negotiation, of course. It's partly ours now after all or are we just lucky beneficiaries? But the independence discussion has been characterised by absolutes from those against it. Want to leave the UK? Well, you can't take anything with you because it's not yours. It's like trying to get away from an abusive partner - even down to the "we can change" pleas.
Re: your last paragraph. Yes, of course. I'd do the same and so would a lot of English people who don't even have the extra concern of where this leaves their region. After all, Brexit has been a masquerade of democracy from start to finish so at worst it's fighting fire with fire. | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 14:23 - Jan 24 with 1983 views | J2BLUE |
| MP's get to vote then on 14:19 - Jan 24 by Darth_Koont |
In the context of where a 52-48 Brexit (and its aftermath of anti-immigration politics) takes Scotland even further down a road it doesn't want to be on, Sturgeon can't just accept the result as is. And in any case she has accepted Brexit for the UK, but wants it still part of the overall debate over Scotland's future place in the world.
The pound is part of the whole negotiation, of course. It's partly ours now after all or are we just lucky beneficiaries? But the independence discussion has been characterised by absolutes from those against it. Want to leave the UK? Well, you can't take anything with you because it's not yours. It's like trying to get away from an abusive partner - even down to the "we can change" pleas.
Re: your last paragraph. Yes, of course. I'd do the same and so would a lot of English people who don't even have the extra concern of where this leaves their region. After all, Brexit has been a masquerade of democracy from start to finish so at worst it's fighting fire with fire. |
The pound is partly yours, our debate was whether it was fair to leave and then have the Bank of Englnd have to consider the Scottish economy for policy decisions.
Slightly off topic but if you left and then joined the EU you'd have to take the EUR wouldn't you? | |
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| Feckin too right... on 14:32 - Jan 24 with 1972 views | unstableblue |
| Feckin too right... on 11:29 - Jan 24 by Darth_Koont |
Absolute rubbish.
Even the Leave side were talking about exploring different models of access to the single market and other European apparatus post-referendum. |
I love it when we agree Darth - because you're right that is absolute rubbish...
What is currently emerging is 'the plan' bares zero resemblance to what people voted for... especially as the reality of leaving is now perhaps even a decade for a full and clean exit. Which is mental.
I will bet my house that in about a year's time Whitehall is going to put its hands up and say - "this is too hard and we simply can't manage it on our own".... because it is TOO HARD
One thing I would say about the OP is that I agree if the vote was run again it might go the same way, simply because the ramifications won't kick in till about 12months in terms of economic pressure. This bubble still hasn't burst. |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 14:34 - Jan 24 with 1969 views | WeWereZombies |
| MP's get to vote then on 12:36 - Jan 24 by Vic |
Thing is that at the time no one really knew (and still doesn't) what leaving would mean. Already we've seen that the predictions of immediate apocalypse were wildly wide of the mark - though surely turbulent days are ahead. Thing is no one knows what it will be like until the negotiations have been concluded.
To say now that we'd have another vote would be to scupper any possibility of getting the best deal we can - the government wouldn't really try and Europe would certainly play hardball so we'd vote t stay in.
The only hope to get the best deal is to push through and negotiate on the basis that we are going to leave and see where we get to. Even if there is a smidgeon of thought that there may be a second vote no government rep would let it pass their lips.
So I don;t think the government had or has any alternative but to proceed the way they have. But I do hope that at the end of the day there will be another vote, so I can agree or disagree with some concrete terms and not just vote on a concept. |
You could have just said we made the wrong decision but we are so bloody-minded we are going to stick with it... |  |
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| MP's get to vote then on 14:44 - Jan 24 with 1948 views | Darth_Koont |
| MP's get to vote then on 14:23 - Jan 24 by J2BLUE |
The pound is partly yours, our debate was whether it was fair to leave and then have the Bank of Englnd have to consider the Scottish economy for policy decisions.
Slightly off topic but if you left and then joined the EU you'd have to take the EUR wouldn't you? |
Depends I'm sure if we have the pound and/or have the grace of the UK opt out. But right now in a straight choice between a hard Brexit and the EuroZone I'd say "Ja, danke. Und wo sind deine hosen, Helmut?"
If there is anything positive to come out of the whole Brexit clusterf*ck it's that I believe the EU will be far more amenable to terms for Scotland's entry once Article 50 is triggered. | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 14:46 - Jan 24 with 1944 views | WeWereZombies |
| MP's get to vote then on 12:40 - Jan 24 by bournemouthblue |
What a tremendous waste of time and money this has been
Why did they even bother to appeal it? |
It has set a precedent that may be useful in the future on a more critical issue than the membership of a trade bloc. What our PM was trying to do was exercise prerogative powers (I though the divine right of kings went out with Charles I, I know it is not quite the same) and this judgement has removed some doubts about what a Prime Minister and their Cabinet can order. This puts some power back into the elected members of Parliament and, hopefully, gives them more of an incentive to represent those who elected them and the interests of the population in general And for us to hold them accountable at constituency elections. | |
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| MP's get to vote then on 15:24 - Jan 24 with 1896 views | Vic |
| MP's get to vote then on 14:34 - Jan 24 by WeWereZombies |
You could have just said we made the wrong decision but we are so bloody-minded we are going to stick with it... |
I could have, but why would I when that's not what I meant? | |
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