| Jeeza. 06:35 - Jun 22 with 70496 views | Benters |
Has this man no shame?
He has no repect for the Queen,i can see that.
This is why i will never vote labour with that trouble making tool in charge.
Rule Britannia. |  |
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| Jeeza. on 12:05 - Jun 23 with 3659 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 11:56 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
Although the cladding failed fire safety tests itself. I expect manslaughter chargers.
A tragedy like this is bad enough without thinking that for spending a few quid more it could've been entirely preventable. |
who, I guess in terms of job role, do you expect to be charged with manslaughter? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jeeza. on 12:06 - Jun 23 with 3637 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jeeza. on 11:56 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
Although the cladding failed fire safety tests itself. I expect manslaughter chargers.
A tragedy like this is bad enough without thinking that for spending a few quid more it could've been entirely preventable. |
Who do you expect manslaughter charges to be brought against? |  |
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| Jeeza. on 12:14 - Jun 23 with 3621 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Jeeza. on 12:06 - Jun 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Who do you expect manslaughter charges to be brought against? |
I'm not sure, there's probably several candidates. Whoever supplied the offending materials, whoever cut costs by choosing those particular materials, whoever gave the go-ahead for people to live there after it failed fire safety tests.
From the BBC:
"The Grenfell Tower fire in London started in a fridge freezer, and outside cladding failed safety tests, police say. Insulation on the building also failed tests and the Metropolitan Police will consider manslaughter charges." |  |
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| Jeeza. on 12:14 - Jun 23 with 3614 views | Benters |
| Jeeza. on 08:16 - Jun 23 by RoyKeanesDog |
Whilst your point would be valid for nearly everybody else on this board, I have no sympathy if for taximan and Benters. |
Thats fair enough i dont want anybody to feel sorry for me. | |
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| Jeeza. on 12:16 - Jun 23 with 3608 views | Benters |
| Jeeza. on 10:23 - Jun 23 by BorisOrTrevor |
arent you the chap who likes to bask in the sunlight if getting arrested at a football match?!
What we have on this thread is an uneven fight between a bunch of self righteous windbags and the village clown, the clown is entitled to his opinions and to call them disgusting is pathetic.
One thing I will say, the people of your generation( as this seems to be more millennial griping) who are buying a house, there are some tough as it is, are very likely not the types to spend hours posting left wing guff and whining on a football forum. But hey, a lot of you seem to also work in the public sector so you probably don't have much to do to fill your day. |
Yep but they will never take this away from us etc etc. | |
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| Jeeza. on 12:18 - Jun 23 with 3597 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 12:14 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
I'm not sure, there's probably several candidates. Whoever supplied the offending materials, whoever cut costs by choosing those particular materials, whoever gave the go-ahead for people to live there after it failed fire safety tests.
From the BBC:
"The Grenfell Tower fire in London started in a fridge freezer, and outside cladding failed safety tests, police say. Insulation on the building also failed tests and the Metropolitan Police will consider manslaughter charges." |
i think the implication in the bbc article is that these were police tests on insulation and cladding after the fire. your assertions: "whoever cut costs by choosing those particular materials, whoever gave the go-ahead for people to live there after it failed fire safety tests" are unproven. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jeeza. on 12:22 - Jun 23 with 3574 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Jeeza. on 12:18 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
i think the implication in the bbc article is that these were police tests on insulation and cladding after the fire. your assertions: "whoever cut costs by choosing those particular materials, whoever gave the go-ahead for people to live there after it failed fire safety tests" are unproven. |
Well obviously, when and if they ARE proven. The police clearly think someone should be held responsible.
I'm not quite sure what you and Glassers are getting at. Do you think there shouldn't be manslaughter charges? | |
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| Jeeza. on 12:28 - Jun 23 with 3527 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Jeeza. on 12:22 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
Well obviously, when and if they ARE proven. The police clearly think someone should be held responsible.
I'm not quite sure what you and Glassers are getting at. Do you think there shouldn't be manslaughter charges? |
If manslaughter charges are appropriate then they should be brought. No ifs not buts.
You said you expected manslaughter chargers to be brought and I was asking you who you believed those charges should be brought against and what you based your expectation on. | |
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| Jeeza. on 12:28 - Jun 23 with 3537 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 12:22 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
Well obviously, when and if they ARE proven. The police clearly think someone should be held responsible.
I'm not quite sure what you and Glassers are getting at. Do you think there shouldn't be manslaughter charges? |
my concern with you and several others, and the reason I have largely stopped engaging with this topic on here, is that you seem determined to pre-empt any investigation and reach conclusions prior to evidence being presented or analysed. the conclusions you seem to be seeking to reach are politically charged. the truth needs to come out - if that leads to manslaughter or other charges then that's right. [Post edited 23 Jun 2017 12:29]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jeeza. on 12:35 - Jun 23 with 3514 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Jeeza. on 12:28 - Jun 23 by GlasgowBlue |
If manslaughter charges are appropriate then they should be brought. No ifs not buts.
You said you expected manslaughter chargers to be brought and I was asking you who you believed those charges should be brought against and what you based your expectation on. |
And I answered. I was going on the police saying they will consider manslaughter charges, but I don't know who against at this stage.
Still not sure what you're getting at. | |
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| Jeeza. on 12:41 - Jun 23 with 3492 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Jeeza. on 12:28 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
my concern with you and several others, and the reason I have largely stopped engaging with this topic on here, is that you seem determined to pre-empt any investigation and reach conclusions prior to evidence being presented or analysed. the conclusions you seem to be seeking to reach are politically charged. the truth needs to come out - if that leads to manslaughter or other charges then that's right. [Post edited 23 Jun 2017 12:29]
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I'm not pre-empting anything. I've just repeated what the police have said, via the BBC. I didn't speculate who until you and Glassers asked me. I also said when and if proven.
And my conclusions (if you can garner any from that) are not politically charged. Whoever is guilty should be charged. Simple as that. | |
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| Jeeza. on 12:42 - Jun 23 with 3486 views | BlueNomad |
| Jeeza. on 12:14 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
I'm not sure, there's probably several candidates. Whoever supplied the offending materials, whoever cut costs by choosing those particular materials, whoever gave the go-ahead for people to live there after it failed fire safety tests.
From the BBC:
"The Grenfell Tower fire in London started in a fridge freezer, and outside cladding failed safety tests, police say. Insulation on the building also failed tests and the Metropolitan Police will consider manslaughter charges." |
We will have to see if there is a prima facie case against any individual but whether there is or not I think we, as a nation, need to think about the political philosophies that have come to dominate in recent years. The society we live in (I know Thatcherites dislike the word society) has developed the cultures that run through everything.
I would like to see a more tolerant, less money obsessed society judged by the way it treats its young, elderly and needy. That will require massive change that might just be starting amongst younger people. |  | | |
| Jeeza. on 12:45 - Jun 23 with 3466 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 12:41 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
I'm not pre-empting anything. I've just repeated what the police have said, via the BBC. I didn't speculate who until you and Glassers asked me. I also said when and if proven.
And my conclusions (if you can garner any from that) are not politically charged. Whoever is guilty should be charged. Simple as that. |
but you seem determined to put a particular spin on it. you haven't bothered to read more than the headline of the bbc article. the article refers to tests done after the fire - you misread that and then claimed someone 'gave the go-ahead for people to live there after it failed fire safety tests'. that sort of misreading and misrepresentation suggests that you are trying to fit these events into a pre-determined narrative. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jeeza. on 12:45 - Jun 23 with 3469 views | BlueLikeJazz |
| Jeeza. on 12:28 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
my concern with you and several others, and the reason I have largely stopped engaging with this topic on here, is that you seem determined to pre-empt any investigation and reach conclusions prior to evidence being presented or analysed. the conclusions you seem to be seeking to reach are politically charged. the truth needs to come out - if that leads to manslaughter or other charges then that's right. [Post edited 23 Jun 2017 12:29]
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It might not be party political, which I assume is what you mean, but if people don't think this entire case is deeply and inescapably political, I wonder what they think politics actually *is*... |  | | |
| Jeeza. on 12:48 - Jun 23 with 3455 views | hype313 |
| Jeeza. on 12:41 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
I'm not pre-empting anything. I've just repeated what the police have said, via the BBC. I didn't speculate who until you and Glassers asked me. I also said when and if proven.
And my conclusions (if you can garner any from that) are not politically charged. Whoever is guilty should be charged. Simple as that. |
Speaking to a customer earlier who are in the fire safety industry, She mentioned that as much as our Health and Safety laws are strict our laws regarding fire safety are woeful and desperately need updating. I mentioned that I'm surprised the sprinklers didn't work but as she said the problem was toxic fumes coming from the cladding, sprinklers are obviously not effective against smoke.
Obviously emotions are high and we always look for someone to blame, but in reality if companies are supplying goods that pass our dire fire safety laws then can we really prosecute? |  |
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| Jeeza. on 12:49 - Jun 23 with 3441 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 12:42 - Jun 23 by BlueNomad |
We will have to see if there is a prima facie case against any individual but whether there is or not I think we, as a nation, need to think about the political philosophies that have come to dominate in recent years. The society we live in (I know Thatcherites dislike the word society) has developed the cultures that run through everything.
I would like to see a more tolerant, less money obsessed society judged by the way it treats its young, elderly and needy. That will require massive change that might just be starting amongst younger people. |
"I would like to see a more tolerant, less money obsessed society judged by the way it treats its young, elderly and needy. That will require massive change ."
that's all lovely, but, without knowing the outcome of the investigation, it's connection to the tragedy in kensington isn't established. [Post edited 23 Jun 2017 12:50]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jeeza. on 12:54 - Jun 23 with 3425 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 12:45 - Jun 23 by BlueLikeJazz |
It might not be party political, which I assume is what you mean, but if people don't think this entire case is deeply and inescapably political, I wonder what they think politics actually *is*... |
all we can say at present is that our fire safety regime has failed appallingly. I don't see that as a political statement. until we know why it failed and how the mistakes came about I don't see it as political. too many people are relying on assertions to reach political conclusions - when what we need is the outcome of the enquiry | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jeeza. on 12:59 - Jun 23 with 3408 views | BlueNomad |
| Jeeza. on 12:49 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
"I would like to see a more tolerant, less money obsessed society judged by the way it treats its young, elderly and needy. That will require massive change ."
that's all lovely, but, without knowing the outcome of the investigation, it's connection to the tragedy in kensington isn't established. [Post edited 23 Jun 2017 12:50]
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As I said, there is a cultural / political issue running underneath so many decisions made by government and local authorities. What I am trying to get across is that I don't imagine anyone would think "I'll create death traps for the hell of it" but I do imagine they might think, "I'll take one or two risks in order to save money." | | | |
| Jeeza. on 13:01 - Jun 23 with 3398 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 12:59 - Jun 23 by BlueNomad |
As I said, there is a cultural / political issue running underneath so many decisions made by government and local authorities. What I am trying to get across is that I don't imagine anyone would think "I'll create death traps for the hell of it" but I do imagine they might think, "I'll take one or two risks in order to save money." |
they might but we don't know that that is what happened. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jeeza. on 13:52 - Jun 23 with 3334 views | BlueNomad |
| Jeeza. on 13:01 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
they might but we don't know that that is what happened. |
No we don't but for criminal charges to be made there needs to be a prima facie case that someone, or an organisation, has deliberately or recklessly commited an offence. I am talking about the culture that lies below it.
Have I made it more clear? | | | |
| Jeeza. on 13:54 - Jun 23 with 3325 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 13:52 - Jun 23 by BlueNomad |
No we don't but for criminal charges to be made there needs to be a prima facie case that someone, or an organisation, has deliberately or recklessly commited an offence. I am talking about the culture that lies below it.
Have I made it more clear? |
until we know why the tragedy occurred it can't be taken in itself as proof that the culture you are describing exists. is that clear? [Post edited 23 Jun 2017 13:56]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Jeeza. on 13:58 - Jun 23 with 3309 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Jeeza. on 12:45 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
but you seem determined to put a particular spin on it. you haven't bothered to read more than the headline of the bbc article. the article refers to tests done after the fire - you misread that and then claimed someone 'gave the go-ahead for people to live there after it failed fire safety tests'. that sort of misreading and misrepresentation suggests that you are trying to fit these events into a pre-determined narrative. |
"but you seem determined to put a particular spin on it"
I'd love to know where the spin is in this;
"the cladding failed fire safety tests itself. I expect manslaughter chargers. A tragedy like this is bad enough without thinking that for spending a few quid more it could've been entirely preventable. "
"you haven't bothered to read more than the headline of the bbc article"
I read the entire article thanks. Whether the tests were since the fire or before is largely irrelevant - it failed those tests, so someone is responsible for people living in a tower block that wasn't safe.
I'd love to know what pre-determined narrative I'm supposedly following. If someone is guilty of negligence and/or cost cutting that lead to these deaths they should be punished, whoever they are. What is my agenda or pre-determined narrative here? | |
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| Jeeza. on 13:58 - Jun 23 with 3307 views | BlueNomad |
| Jeeza. on 13:54 - Jun 23 by lowhouseblue |
until we know why the tragedy occurred it can't be taken in itself as proof that the culture you are describing exists. is that clear? [Post edited 23 Jun 2017 13:56]
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Ok - austerity, putting the less well off in buildings that lack the same basics as more expensive buildings, a failure to adhere to H&S regulations (once derided by Cameron), more and more people who cannot afford housing etc tends to indicate there are cultural issues underpinning decisions that are now only being called in to question because of a disaster. | | | |
| Jeeza. on 14:01 - Jun 23 with 3292 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Jeeza. on 12:48 - Jun 23 by hype313 |
Speaking to a customer earlier who are in the fire safety industry, She mentioned that as much as our Health and Safety laws are strict our laws regarding fire safety are woeful and desperately need updating. I mentioned that I'm surprised the sprinklers didn't work but as she said the problem was toxic fumes coming from the cladding, sprinklers are obviously not effective against smoke.
Obviously emotions are high and we always look for someone to blame, but in reality if companies are supplying goods that pass our dire fire safety laws then can we really prosecute? |
"sprinklers are obviously not effective against smoke."
Eh? Smoke comes from fire, sprinklers put out fire. | |
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| Jeeza. on 14:03 - Jun 23 with 3277 views | lowhouseblue |
| Jeeza. on 13:58 - Jun 23 by Dolly2.0 |
"but you seem determined to put a particular spin on it"
I'd love to know where the spin is in this;
"the cladding failed fire safety tests itself. I expect manslaughter chargers. A tragedy like this is bad enough without thinking that for spending a few quid more it could've been entirely preventable. "
"you haven't bothered to read more than the headline of the bbc article"
I read the entire article thanks. Whether the tests were since the fire or before is largely irrelevant - it failed those tests, so someone is responsible for people living in a tower block that wasn't safe.
I'd love to know what pre-determined narrative I'm supposedly following. If someone is guilty of negligence and/or cost cutting that lead to these deaths they should be punished, whoever they are. What is my agenda or pre-determined narrative here? |
after reading the article you asserted that someone ''gave the go-ahead for people to live there after it failed fire safety tests".
so after reading the article you thought that the fire safety test preceded people living there. you had clearly misread the article. and it is clearly critically important whether the tests were since the fire or before. surely you can see that?
jeez. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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