| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:21 - Feb 23 with 2228 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
Unfair that the officer has been made a scape goat.
He wouldn’t have known the full level of threat, and was probably out armed by the gunman.
It says he didn’t enter the building, but that doesn’t mean he did nothing.
Media will probably hound him to death. |  |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:40 - Feb 23 with 2209 views | homer_123 |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:21 - Feb 23 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Unfair that the officer has been made a scape goat.
He wouldn’t have known the full level of threat, and was probably out armed by the gunman.
It says he didn’t enter the building, but that doesn’t mean he did nothing.
Media will probably hound him to death. |
That's besides the point.
The wider point being that trump and the NRA want to arm teachers. If a trained Deputy didn't confront the gunman (and by the way the deputy has resigned after being suspended and may face charges) then why on earth would arming teachers help! |  |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:51 - Feb 23 with 2197 views | giant_stow |
That's going to be a terrible thing to try and live with - got to be a top-himself risk - hope he gets care. We all would like to think we'd be a hero, but I wonder how many would have gone in there? |  |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:54 - Feb 23 with 2191 views | homer_123 |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:51 - Feb 23 by giant_stow |
That's going to be a terrible thing to try and live with - got to be a top-himself risk - hope he gets care. We all would like to think we'd be a hero, but I wonder how many would have gone in there? |
I'm not criticising the Deputy.
I'm merely pointing out that ludicrous thought of arming teachers. If a trained Deputy with potentially years of experience didn't challenge the gunman (for whatever reason), how are teachers going to fare? | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:56 - Feb 23 with 2192 views | FinidiCentenary |
My heart goes out to any American smart enough to fight their way out of the awful, deep rooted mindset that most of America has.
The suggestion of giving some teachers guns is just ridiculous, let alone the suggestion they'd be given a little extra pay.
That firstly means that teachers, under considerable stress, and with some cases of mental health issues themselves and in some cases assaults against students, would now have guns. You'd also have teachers who shouldn't have them and wouldn't want them taking them for the extra pay, believing it'll never happen to their school. These people now have guns too.
This is all to stop a student walking in and shooting. Well two things strike me here. This pupil knew they had an armed officer in the school and still walked in and started killing people. So knowing that a few teachers had them is not going to much of a issue for them. Secondly, if guns weren't so readily available then maybe this kid couldn't have walked in and killed anyone in the first place.
And what happens when you ask a teacher with a gun to make a call about whether a pupil found with a gun or a knife might intend to harm someone? Shoot them? What about when a pupil goes to assault a teacher? Shoot them?
What happens after the first few cases of teachers killing students? Give all the students guns too?
It's so sad for the world that American's cannot open their eyes to literally almost every other country. The saddest thing of the lot here appears to be the connection between their own president and the people handing out the guns. The answer always seems to be more guns and never less guns. |  |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:57 - Feb 23 with 2184 views | giant_stow |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:54 - Feb 23 by homer_123 |
I'm not criticising the Deputy.
I'm merely pointing out that ludicrous thought of arming teachers. If a trained Deputy with potentially years of experience didn't challenge the gunman (for whatever reason), how are teachers going to fare? |
I got what you meant mr and totally agree - just off on a tangent | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:02 - Feb 23 with 2179 views | bluelou |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:21 - Feb 23 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Unfair that the officer has been made a scape goat.
He wouldn’t have known the full level of threat, and was probably out armed by the gunman.
It says he didn’t enter the building, but that doesn’t mean he did nothing.
Media will probably hound him to death. |
HE entered the building after 4 minutes. The attack was over in 6.
He would have been issued with a handgun and, although properly trained, he probably knew he wouldn't have stood a chance against a weapon of war like an AR-15.
It's a joke, they need to pay teachers a living wage and take steps to protect kids.
Many teachers die in these incidents too, trying to protect kids for the sake of $40k a year. | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:08 - Feb 23 with 2161 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:40 - Feb 23 by homer_123 |
That's besides the point.
The wider point being that trump and the NRA want to arm teachers. If a trained Deputy didn't confront the gunman (and by the way the deputy has resigned after being suspended and may face charges) then why on earth would arming teachers help! |
I’m not arguing against that, my point was that the officer has been hung out to dry.
Did nothing wrong in my eyes. | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:10 - Feb 23 with 2161 views | Guthrum |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:56 - Feb 23 by FinidiCentenary |
My heart goes out to any American smart enough to fight their way out of the awful, deep rooted mindset that most of America has.
The suggestion of giving some teachers guns is just ridiculous, let alone the suggestion they'd be given a little extra pay.
That firstly means that teachers, under considerable stress, and with some cases of mental health issues themselves and in some cases assaults against students, would now have guns. You'd also have teachers who shouldn't have them and wouldn't want them taking them for the extra pay, believing it'll never happen to their school. These people now have guns too.
This is all to stop a student walking in and shooting. Well two things strike me here. This pupil knew they had an armed officer in the school and still walked in and started killing people. So knowing that a few teachers had them is not going to much of a issue for them. Secondly, if guns weren't so readily available then maybe this kid couldn't have walked in and killed anyone in the first place.
And what happens when you ask a teacher with a gun to make a call about whether a pupil found with a gun or a knife might intend to harm someone? Shoot them? What about when a pupil goes to assault a teacher? Shoot them?
What happens after the first few cases of teachers killing students? Give all the students guns too?
It's so sad for the world that American's cannot open their eyes to literally almost every other country. The saddest thing of the lot here appears to be the connection between their own president and the people handing out the guns. The answer always seems to be more guns and never less guns. |
Not to mention the extra carnage likely if you have crossfire between a shooter and armed teachers. Both probably at best semi-trained and under extreme stress.
Then the Swat team burst in and shoot anyone holding a weapon, possibly themselves receiving return fire from scared and confused staff.
With pupils caught in the middle of all that. |  |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:12 - Feb 23 with 2148 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:51 - Feb 23 by giant_stow |
That's going to be a terrible thing to try and live with - got to be a top-himself risk - hope he gets care. We all would like to think we'd be a hero, but I wonder how many would have gone in there? |
Not many.
He did nothing wrong.
Report suggests he may have entered the building after 4 mins. And he would have known that he was out armed.
He also had no idea how many attackers there were and whether they had bombs etc.
Why should he be expected to go in alone.
#scapegoat | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:12 - Feb 23 with 2150 views | Oxford_Blue |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:21 - Feb 23 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Unfair that the officer has been made a scape goat.
He wouldn’t have known the full level of threat, and was probably out armed by the gunman.
It says he didn’t enter the building, but that doesn’t mean he did nothing.
Media will probably hound him to death. |
Disagree.
As an armed officer on the ground, your job is to protect life, especially where children are involved. He waited, watched, identified the attacker, called the police, then did nothing for four minutes. If he entered the building then, why not do it at the start.
Had he acted, lives could have been saved.
That was his job. [Post edited 23 Feb 2018 9:14]
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:15 - Feb 23 with 2137 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:12 - Feb 23 by Oxford_Blue |
Disagree.
As an armed officer on the ground, your job is to protect life, especially where children are involved. He waited, watched, identified the attacker, called the police, then did nothing for four minutes. If he entered the building then, why not do it at the start.
Had he acted, lives could have been saved.
That was his job. [Post edited 23 Feb 2018 9:14]
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Agree to disagree, see my previous post.
Also we don’t know the facts.
Report suggests he did enter the building after 4 mind.
4 mind is nothing, he would need time to assess the situation and threat and talk to colleagues on the radio re back up.
If only everyone was as heroic as you.
I suspect he would have been, and will be just another fatality of the crime. | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:17 - Feb 23 with 2134 views | Guthrum |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:02 - Feb 23 by bluelou |
HE entered the building after 4 minutes. The attack was over in 6.
He would have been issued with a handgun and, although properly trained, he probably knew he wouldn't have stood a chance against a weapon of war like an AR-15.
It's a joke, they need to pay teachers a living wage and take steps to protect kids.
Many teachers die in these incidents too, trying to protect kids for the sake of $40k a year. |
While a handgun might be almost as useful as an assault rifle in a close range fight within rooms and corridors, the murderer will always have the initiative. The policeman has to be alerted, decipher the situation and locate the killer before he can act. In a gun battle, he is as likely to be incapacitated as the perpetrator.
One issue nobody is talking about is not ownership, but that of gun storage. In the UK, if you own a weapon, it has to be kept in a secure, locked cabinet, bolted firmly to the wall. In the US it can be hung on the wall or in your sock drawer. In this instance, the murderer had his own weapon, but on other occasions guns belonging to family members have been used. Many firearms are stolen during burglaries. | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:19 - Feb 23 with 2121 views | homer_123 |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:57 - Feb 23 by giant_stow |
I got what you meant mr and totally agree - just off on a tangent |
No worries Ulla, didn't mean to come across quite so aggressive! | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:24 - Feb 23 with 2110 views | Oxford_Blue |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:15 - Feb 23 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Agree to disagree, see my previous post.
Also we don’t know the facts.
Report suggests he did enter the building after 4 mind.
4 mind is nothing, he would need time to assess the situation and threat and talk to colleagues on the radio re back up.
If only everyone was as heroic as you.
I suspect he would have been, and will be just another fatality of the crime. |
Actually, I’m not sure what the evidence is for him going in at all. I’ve read four reports and they all say he stayed outside.
I’m sorry but when you are a policeman, and a deputy sheriff, and you are seeing children being shot who are unarmed, and you are armed, there is a duty to do something more than wait.
He could have possibly killed the shooter, or deterrred him, or given others time to get away. To say that he was worried about his own life isn’t an excuse. It’s the deal that you put your life st risk in those situations. Other teachers who were unarmed gave their lives, to shield children, and not run. | | | |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:25 - Feb 23 with 2101 views | homer_123 |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:10 - Feb 23 by Guthrum |
Not to mention the extra carnage likely if you have crossfire between a shooter and armed teachers. Both probably at best semi-trained and under extreme stress.
Then the Swat team burst in and shoot anyone holding a weapon, possibly themselves receiving return fire from scared and confused staff.
With pupils caught in the middle of all that. |
The answer is crystal clear isn't it.
Basically, arm everyone. | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:29 - Feb 23 with 2089 views | MJallday |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:40 - Feb 23 by homer_123 |
That's besides the point.
The wider point being that trump and the NRA want to arm teachers. If a trained Deputy didn't confront the gunman (and by the way the deputy has resigned after being suspended and may face charges) then why on earth would arming teachers help! |
You cant fight a guy with an assault rifle, with a pistol. well you can - but you'd probably lose very quickly
also, i think its extremely amiss to chastise the guy - he may not have ever been in a firefight and froze - happens to trained soldiers.
at the end of the day, he didnt kill 17 people. primarily he was there to act as a deterrant (protect and serve remember) - i think if you truely want people to hang around and go in and kill others in those circumstances - employ trained soldiers rather than cops. |  |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:33 - Feb 23 with 2084 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:24 - Feb 23 by Oxford_Blue |
Actually, I’m not sure what the evidence is for him going in at all. I’ve read four reports and they all say he stayed outside.
I’m sorry but when you are a policeman, and a deputy sheriff, and you are seeing children being shot who are unarmed, and you are armed, there is a duty to do something more than wait.
He could have possibly killed the shooter, or deterrred him, or given others time to get away. To say that he was worried about his own life isn’t an excuse. It’s the deal that you put your life st risk in those situations. Other teachers who were unarmed gave their lives, to shield children, and not run. |
They say he stayed outside for four minutes. That would suggest that after four minutes he entered the building.
Anyway. Agree to differ on this one mate.
I wonder where on the job as 'School Resource Officer' his job description read... with no back up, you will be expected to engage in a gun fight with an unknown number of assailants and largely unknown weaponry. You will be expected to go against an assault rifle, armed only with a handgun. | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:37 - Feb 23 with 2079 views | Oxford_Blue |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:29 - Feb 23 by MJallday |
You cant fight a guy with an assault rifle, with a pistol. well you can - but you'd probably lose very quickly
also, i think its extremely amiss to chastise the guy - he may not have ever been in a firefight and froze - happens to trained soldiers.
at the end of the day, he didnt kill 17 people. primarily he was there to act as a deterrant (protect and serve remember) - i think if you truely want people to hang around and go in and kill others in those circumstances - employ trained soldiers rather than cops. |
Whether he killed 17 people isn’t the point.
The point is what the role and job of an an armed policeman is - clearly the expectation in his police force was that he should have taken action hence the reaction by them. Whether he would have succeeded or not isn’t the point either. It was his duty to do all he could to try to stop the attacker. That is part of the job. Unarmed teachers were doing that whilst he was hiding outside and never went in. You take a far too relaxed approach I’m afraid. Many policeman lay down their lives to protect others. That’s part of the job. And who knows, he could have delayed or distracted the shooter and saved lives. To say “oh well I might be in danger if I go in so I’ll take no action” is cowardly. The expectation is higher if you are a trained armed policeman than if it was me or you. If he isn’t going to use his gun in that situation, why have it at all? | | | |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:38 - Feb 23 with 2074 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:29 - Feb 23 by MJallday |
You cant fight a guy with an assault rifle, with a pistol. well you can - but you'd probably lose very quickly
also, i think its extremely amiss to chastise the guy - he may not have ever been in a firefight and froze - happens to trained soldiers.
at the end of the day, he didnt kill 17 people. primarily he was there to act as a deterrant (protect and serve remember) - i think if you truely want people to hang around and go in and kill others in those circumstances - employ trained soldiers rather than cops. |
Indeed.
And 4 minutes is no time at all to process information, assess the information, speak to base etc to relay key intelligence.
Its not as if he was special forces. | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:51 - Feb 23 with 2050 views | Oxford_Blue |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:38 - Feb 23 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Indeed.
And 4 minutes is no time at all to process information, assess the information, speak to base etc to relay key intelligence.
Its not as if he was special forces. |
His job was to protect the school. He was the school’s own officer. He was armed. His duty was to at least try to help. He bottled it. A pistol in an enclosed environment is actually effective. He could and should have tried to intervene. | | | |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:55 - Feb 23 with 2038 views | Oxford_Blue |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 08:51 - Feb 23 by giant_stow |
That's going to be a terrible thing to try and live with - got to be a top-himself risk - hope he gets care. We all would like to think we'd be a hero, but I wonder how many would have gone in there? |
It was his job!!!!!! | | | |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 10:02 - Feb 23 with 2032 views | homer_123 |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:29 - Feb 23 by MJallday |
You cant fight a guy with an assault rifle, with a pistol. well you can - but you'd probably lose very quickly
also, i think its extremely amiss to chastise the guy - he may not have ever been in a firefight and froze - happens to trained soldiers.
at the end of the day, he didnt kill 17 people. primarily he was there to act as a deterrant (protect and serve remember) - i think if you truely want people to hang around and go in and kill others in those circumstances - employ trained soldiers rather than cops. |
I'm not chastising him.
I'm merely pointing out the folly of the fact that Trump and the NRA wish to arm teachers.
If a trained Deputy hasn't (for whatever reason) challenged said gunman - then why on earth would you expect teachers to? | |
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| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 10:11 - Feb 23 with 2012 views | TJS |
In terms of prevention I would say the FBI are the main offenders here.
Why did they let him buy an assault rifle when he had already posted threats on his social media. |  | | |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 10:20 - Feb 23 with 1991 views | Guthrum |
| So, an armed (trained) Deputy didn't confront the gunman in Florida on 09:51 - Feb 23 by Oxford_Blue |
His job was to protect the school. He was the school’s own officer. He was armed. His duty was to at least try to help. He bottled it. A pistol in an enclosed environment is actually effective. He could and should have tried to intervene. |
Schools, by their very nature, are not simple buildings, consisting of different corridors, a large number of individual (class)rooms, often with staircases and upper floors as well. It takes more than a few seconds to work out where someone is and the best way to reach them (especially if there is the added risk of ambush).
Even knowing the layout was no advantage, the attacker did also.
The officer would have been more recogniseable to the killer than vice-versa. The fact that Cruz managed to escape among fleeing students backs this up.
Four minutes is really not very long to hesitate from an unprepared, standing start, with a sudden rush of confused information to assimilate and act upon. The officer may not have been very well trained, he may not have been competent. He may have bottled it when faced with an emergency. That's what comes of being human (and why the military uses repetitive drills to drive the actions into the subconscious and make them instinctive). | |
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