| Political disengagement 12:09 - May 14 with 1118 views | homer_123 |
Just looking at Political Party membership numbers:
2018
Source: Electoral Commission for 2018
The Labour Party has around 540,000 members, as of April 2018, according to an unconfirmed estimate published on the LabourList.
The Scottish National Party has just under 125,500 members, as of August 2018.
The Conservative Party has 124,000 members as of March 2018.
The Liberal Democrat Party has around 99,200 members, as of August 2018
The Green Party (England and Wales) has 39,350 members, as of August 2018
UKIP has around 23,600 members, as of August 2018
Plaid Cymru has around 8,000 members, as of August 2018
Now, compare this with membership in the 50s
Source: House of Commons Library
Conservatives were reported to have had aound 2.8 millions members
Labour had around 1 million members
That is a huge difference! Labour can 'claim' to have grown their membership over the last few years (we can discuss the reasons for that another time!) but membership alone indicates a significant drop in political engagement.
In some respects you can argue that Brexit has actually been a positive, from purely the angle of actually generating debate, passions and interest - because apathy had (and probably still is) set in to UK politics.
I'm not sure the fault can be surely laid at politicians but it's more of a collective. We have a mindset in this country now of focusing on our individual needs without being able to fully see a bigger picture or to think of others. It appears many are happy to not get involved if they get their own way.
What would it take for you to be more involved in politics either locally or nationally? Is anyone here already involved? What are the barriers? |  |
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| Political disengagement on 12:16 - May 14 with 1093 views | Herbivore |
We don't educate kids about politics or really all that much about society in general. We don't really teach them to think critically either. All of this contributes to people caring more about Love Island than they do about the future of their country.
I disagree, though, that Brexit has been good in any way, shape or form. On the surface it may look like it's engaged people but it hasn't really, it's exposed the most base aspects of our politics and the electorate are still not very well-informed and they remain largely politically inactive. |  |
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| Political disengagement on 12:20 - May 14 with 1087 views | homer_123 |
| Political disengagement on 12:16 - May 14 by Herbivore |
We don't educate kids about politics or really all that much about society in general. We don't really teach them to think critically either. All of this contributes to people caring more about Love Island than they do about the future of their country.
I disagree, though, that Brexit has been good in any way, shape or form. On the surface it may look like it's engaged people but it hasn't really, it's exposed the most base aspects of our politics and the electorate are still not very well-informed and they remain largely politically inactive. |
Agree on the first point Herbs. I'd add to that. I don't think we teach people to listen, even if views and opinions differ from ours. There's an element of tolerance in there as well.
I'd disagree on your second point. If Brexit then becomes a catalyst for people to actually care more, get involved and educate themselves and then possibly engage more with politics, then it has had a positive impact. As I say, apathy has, for too long, been more than just a spectre on our political landscape. | |
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| Political disengagement on 12:23 - May 14 with 1071 views | Herbivore |
| Political disengagement on 12:20 - May 14 by homer_123 |
Agree on the first point Herbs. I'd add to that. I don't think we teach people to listen, even if views and opinions differ from ours. There's an element of tolerance in there as well.
I'd disagree on your second point. If Brexit then becomes a catalyst for people to actually care more, get involved and educate themselves and then possibly engage more with politics, then it has had a positive impact. As I say, apathy has, for too long, been more than just a spectre on our political landscape. |
But there's no evidence that Brexit is leading to people becoming more informed (arguably it's had the opposite effect in entrenching fixed opinions and creating echo chambers) or more active, aside from the odd protest here and there. | |
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| Political disengagement on 12:29 - May 14 with 1063 views | homer_123 |
| Political disengagement on 12:23 - May 14 by Herbivore |
But there's no evidence that Brexit is leading to people becoming more informed (arguably it's had the opposite effect in entrenching fixed opinions and creating echo chambers) or more active, aside from the odd protest here and there. |
I can see where you are coming from but I look at it differently. In the short term we are indeed seeing some entrenched views and certainly there are groups who appear unable to consider their positions and view) but I suspect that we might see the landscape change.
Not that these groups will change but we see those that haven't been involved becoming more so. For example, there is evidence to suggest that those under 25 that didn't vote in the referendum (assuming in a lot of cases that they didn't need to), would not make the same mistake again. Couple that with the reporting of the facts that there was a lot of mis-information distributed during the campaigns and the role social media now plays in shaping views and opinions, we may well find that this group is indeed more critical in it's thinking, will engage politically and be better informed as they not only have the knowledge of what has gone before (i.e. not to trust everything) but know what to look for going forward.
In addition, you are seeing the BBC beginning to change how it is reporting (I can't quite find the information to hand). They are seeking suggestions on how they report on politics and are talking about being much more critical in pulling up MPs for example, that make false claims etc.
So, the landscape is changing. | |
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| Political disengagement on 12:31 - May 14 with 1062 views | Herbivore |
| Political disengagement on 12:29 - May 14 by homer_123 |
I can see where you are coming from but I look at it differently. In the short term we are indeed seeing some entrenched views and certainly there are groups who appear unable to consider their positions and view) but I suspect that we might see the landscape change.
Not that these groups will change but we see those that haven't been involved becoming more so. For example, there is evidence to suggest that those under 25 that didn't vote in the referendum (assuming in a lot of cases that they didn't need to), would not make the same mistake again. Couple that with the reporting of the facts that there was a lot of mis-information distributed during the campaigns and the role social media now plays in shaping views and opinions, we may well find that this group is indeed more critical in it's thinking, will engage politically and be better informed as they not only have the knowledge of what has gone before (i.e. not to trust everything) but know what to look for going forward.
In addition, you are seeing the BBC beginning to change how it is reporting (I can't quite find the information to hand). They are seeking suggestions on how they report on politics and are talking about being much more critical in pulling up MPs for example, that make false claims etc.
So, the landscape is changing. |
Your last sentence is only true if everything you hope comes to pass. There's no evidence to support that things are changing, certainly not for the better. Have to agree to disagree. | |
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| Political disengagement on 12:36 - May 14 with 1056 views | Guthrum |
Some of that comes down to circumstances. In the 1950s, ideologies were still a strong factor. Socialism/communism had a strong following, with a conservative/capitalist reaction to that. Since the 1990s, with the fall of the Soviet Union and the changes in China, political ideologies have fallen out of fashion. With Reagan in the US and Thatcher in the UK, the emphasis changed from idealistic plans for developing society as a whole to a concentration on personal improvement with the thought this would raise overall standards.
The things which motivate people today are concepts such as environmentalism, nationalism and religious/sectarian or ethnic exclusivism. They are only in recent years beginning to filter through into mainstream politics (incidentally putting a major strain on the existing party system, left over from the previous era).
Another aspect is economic. In times of hardship, more people take an interest in politics - in the hope of improving the situation. Between the mid 1990s and 2008 we had a long period of relative comfort, which also coincided with a major technological boom (computers, mobile phones, entertainment, social media). The last decade has seen austerity, inflation in basic essential goods and increasing economic uncertainty. That is now beginning to affect people's thinking, but it takes time (remember the austerity of the 1950s had been preceded by wartime hardship and before that the Great Depression). |  |
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| Political disengagement on 12:39 - May 14 with 1047 views | GeoffSentence |
Change the political system.
With our first past the post system there are great swathes of the country where it is virtually impossible to make a difference. So what's the point of getting involved. |  |
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| Political disengagement on 12:45 - May 14 with 1026 views | homer_123 |
| Political disengagement on 12:36 - May 14 by Guthrum |
Some of that comes down to circumstances. In the 1950s, ideologies were still a strong factor. Socialism/communism had a strong following, with a conservative/capitalist reaction to that. Since the 1990s, with the fall of the Soviet Union and the changes in China, political ideologies have fallen out of fashion. With Reagan in the US and Thatcher in the UK, the emphasis changed from idealistic plans for developing society as a whole to a concentration on personal improvement with the thought this would raise overall standards.
The things which motivate people today are concepts such as environmentalism, nationalism and religious/sectarian or ethnic exclusivism. They are only in recent years beginning to filter through into mainstream politics (incidentally putting a major strain on the existing party system, left over from the previous era).
Another aspect is economic. In times of hardship, more people take an interest in politics - in the hope of improving the situation. Between the mid 1990s and 2008 we had a long period of relative comfort, which also coincided with a major technological boom (computers, mobile phones, entertainment, social media). The last decade has seen austerity, inflation in basic essential goods and increasing economic uncertainty. That is now beginning to affect people's thinking, but it takes time (remember the austerity of the 1950s had been preceded by wartime hardship and before that the Great Depression). |
'the emphasis changed from idealistic plans for developing society as a whole to a concentration on personal improvement'
Agreed. The 'I'm alright Jack' mentality has been allowed to prevail.
I do think the political landscape is beginning to see a change and I think you are right, there are big issues (way bigger than Brexit) that will engage many more people politically. Agreed as well that these are things like environmentalism. | |
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| Political disengagement on 12:55 - May 14 with 1015 views | Guthrum |
| Political disengagement on 12:45 - May 14 by homer_123 |
'the emphasis changed from idealistic plans for developing society as a whole to a concentration on personal improvement'
Agreed. The 'I'm alright Jack' mentality has been allowed to prevail.
I do think the political landscape is beginning to see a change and I think you are right, there are big issues (way bigger than Brexit) that will engage many more people politically. Agreed as well that these are things like environmentalism. |
Brexit is just a symptom of the upsurge in nationalism, which is itself a reaction to the perception that ordinary people have not really benefitted from supra-national structures, such as the EU, US international trade deals, even the United Nations.
Most nations can point to a "glorious era" in their past (often when they themselves headed a supra-national structure such as an empire), which aspiring nationalist politicians can use to "prove" that the nation state is best operating on its own and should return to that condition as far as possible. Hence Make America Great Again and some Brexiteers' harking back to the 1940s. It's only the same as Mussolini did with his "Roman Revival". | |
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| Political disengagement on 13:25 - May 14 with 988 views | Guthrum |
| Political disengagement on 12:39 - May 14 by GeoffSentence |
Change the political system.
With our first past the post system there are great swathes of the country where it is virtually impossible to make a difference. So what's the point of getting involved. |
I'd like to see something closer to the system we'll be using next Thursday. Areas equivalent to three or four present constituencies, each electing that many Members on a PR list system. That way, your "megaconstituency" (e.g. East Suffolk, consisting of the present Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, Ipswich, Suffolk Coastal and Waveney constituencies) may end up with two Conservative, one Labour and one LibDem MPs. | |
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| Political disengagement on 13:51 - May 14 with 971 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Political disengagement on 12:39 - May 14 by GeoffSentence |
Change the political system.
With our first past the post system there are great swathes of the country where it is virtually impossible to make a difference. So what's the point of getting involved. |
This possibly goes above all of Guthrum's good points for non participation.
A good democracy is one where political participation is high and the main parties are forever encouraging the populace to vote in high numbers (irrespective of the party) comfortable in the knowledge that their position is safe within the existing system.
A change will only happen after these so called "centrist" parties find a way to win in an alternative system. If they were honest about the importance of political participation, they would make it more meaningful by changing the system as soon as possible. Unfortunately, they're not very honest about it. |  |
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| Political disengagement on 13:59 - May 14 with 953 views | Steve_M |
| Political disengagement on 12:36 - May 14 by Guthrum |
Some of that comes down to circumstances. In the 1950s, ideologies were still a strong factor. Socialism/communism had a strong following, with a conservative/capitalist reaction to that. Since the 1990s, with the fall of the Soviet Union and the changes in China, political ideologies have fallen out of fashion. With Reagan in the US and Thatcher in the UK, the emphasis changed from idealistic plans for developing society as a whole to a concentration on personal improvement with the thought this would raise overall standards.
The things which motivate people today are concepts such as environmentalism, nationalism and religious/sectarian or ethnic exclusivism. They are only in recent years beginning to filter through into mainstream politics (incidentally putting a major strain on the existing party system, left over from the previous era).
Another aspect is economic. In times of hardship, more people take an interest in politics - in the hope of improving the situation. Between the mid 1990s and 2008 we had a long period of relative comfort, which also coincided with a major technological boom (computers, mobile phones, entertainment, social media). The last decade has seen austerity, inflation in basic essential goods and increasing economic uncertainty. That is now beginning to affect people's thinking, but it takes time (remember the austerity of the 1950s had been preceded by wartime hardship and before that the Great Depression). |
To add to which, in prior decades then being a party member was a part of one's social life be that as an extension of working men's clubs or as the heart of a aspiring middle class person's social life (i.e a place to meet a spouse).
The societal changes that have seen a decline in membership aren't all political ones. |  |
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| Political disengagement on 14:15 - May 14 with 921 views | Swansea_Blue |
The Brexit Party may have got this sorted. Don't have members who are able to vote on who their leader may be, hold leaders to account or decide Party strategy and Policy. Just have 'supporters' who hand over their cash for no say whatsoever, but who also then don't have to go through the ball ache of engaging or putting in any effort.
That could be an inspired move, however far from the principle of democratic parties it is (which in fairness is probably a bit warped these days anyway with the likes of internal groups like Momentum using hard line tactics). |  |
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| Political disengagement on 14:26 - May 14 with 902 views | No9 |
People in E ngland don't understand politics if they did they would realise voting for Mr farage means voting for a party with no policies
Seems attractive to those without any basic education in what politics is & many, particularly the outriders want it to stay that way |  | | |
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