| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 16:23 - Apr 25 with 1531 views | longtimefan |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 16:06 - Apr 25 by monytowbray |
Don’t drink. And done this discussion about the death toll.
Really, this weekend, what needs to happen is those who have defended all going on for weeks need to consider what kind of job No. 10 are doing if they’ve failed by their own benchmarks. And that’s in relation to testing too.
That’s way more important than pretending anyone calling this out for weeks is now having a party. No one is going to be held accountable if a large chunk of the public support hiding the truth and a lack of transparency.
The mind boggles but then again it’s not the first time. Grenfell Enquiry and the Russia Report spring to mind. |
What No 10 benchmarks other than testing are you referring to? |  | |  |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:06 - Apr 25 with 1500 views | Churchman |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 13:06 - Apr 25 by monytowbray |
Release the notes and transcripts if they have nothing to hide.
Money says they don’t. |
Do you really think publishing all minutes and transcripts would work? Do you think any government anywhere would do that? Given our media, one of the worst most aggressive showers in the world, how do you think that’d play out? How willing do you think people would be to attend, let alone contribute to meetings?
The reality is that government couldn’t function properly and meetings at best would become public PR exercises. Haven’t we had enough of that? I would add that you could forget any cooperation from industry/private sector if you did it. Its precisely why Memorandum of Understandings (MOUs) are often required. [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 17:08]
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:12 - Apr 25 with 1490 views | monytowbray |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:06 - Apr 25 by Churchman |
Do you really think publishing all minutes and transcripts would work? Do you think any government anywhere would do that? Given our media, one of the worst most aggressive showers in the world, how do you think that’d play out? How willing do you think people would be to attend, let alone contribute to meetings?
The reality is that government couldn’t function properly and meetings at best would become public PR exercises. Haven’t we had enough of that? I would add that you could forget any cooperation from industry/private sector if you did it. Its precisely why Memorandum of Understandings (MOUs) are often required. [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 17:08]
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So basically we shouldn’t hold politicians to account otherwise they’d be too afraid to be politicians?
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I understand the point you are making but how did we get in such a dire position? |  |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:14 - Apr 25 with 1486 views | monytowbray |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 16:23 - Apr 25 by longtimefan |
What No 10 benchmarks other than testing are you referring to? |
Well they said we’d do well to only hit 20,000 deaths for a start. If you fail to meet your own targets you’ve failed by your own admission.
But as with all these figures we hear, they are just lip service and kicking a can further down the road in the hope everyone forgets the can existed in the first place. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:24 - Apr 25 with 1478 views | Churchman |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:12 - Apr 25 by monytowbray |
So basically we shouldn’t hold politicians to account otherwise they’d be too afraid to be politicians?
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I understand the point you are making but how did we get in such a dire position? |
I was thinking about the people that do the work more than Ministers really, but even with them, I don’t think publishing everything they say and attend would be helpful. Of course we should hold politicians to account. 100%. I’ve no time for any of them and too many throughout the years have thought they are beyond that or even the law. But the ins and outs of government (with a small g) are complex and vast. And there’s a lot of it that’s very sensitive for all sorts of reasons. The Official Secrets Act is signed for a reason and all I’m saying is that a lot of what happens really doesn’t belong in the public arena. The outcomes most certainly do and politicians should certainly justify their actions at some point.
A classic example is Tony Blair and Iraq. I backed his actions totally. He recommended it, he was PM and had the accountability and as far as I was concerned, he didn’t need to justify them until it was over. Sadly he failed to do that, so he lost my vote at the following election. [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 17:26]
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:31 - Apr 25 with 1463 views | longtimefan |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:14 - Apr 25 by monytowbray |
Well they said we’d do well to only hit 20,000 deaths for a start. If you fail to meet your own targets you’ve failed by your own admission.
But as with all these figures we hear, they are just lip service and kicking a can further down the road in the hope everyone forgets the can existed in the first place. |
I thought that was a figure put forward by the CMO rather than any politician! | | | |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:33 - Apr 25 with 1460 views | Herbivore |
I see Glassers has fully reached the point of loving Big Brother. [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 18:48]
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:53 - Apr 25 with 1433 views | vapour_trail |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:24 - Apr 25 by Churchman |
I was thinking about the people that do the work more than Ministers really, but even with them, I don’t think publishing everything they say and attend would be helpful. Of course we should hold politicians to account. 100%. I’ve no time for any of them and too many throughout the years have thought they are beyond that or even the law. But the ins and outs of government (with a small g) are complex and vast. And there’s a lot of it that’s very sensitive for all sorts of reasons. The Official Secrets Act is signed for a reason and all I’m saying is that a lot of what happens really doesn’t belong in the public arena. The outcomes most certainly do and politicians should certainly justify their actions at some point.
A classic example is Tony Blair and Iraq. I backed his actions totally. He recommended it, he was PM and had the accountability and as far as I was concerned, he didn’t need to justify them until it was over. Sadly he failed to do that, so he lost my vote at the following election. [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 17:26]
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That doesn’t really cut it on the accountability front though does it.
Launching an illegal invasion of a sovereign state, the murder of who knows how many hundreds of thousands of innocent people, and ensuing decades of carnage bestowed upon another part of the globe, and accountability involves losing a few votes at the ballot box.
Sub optimal.
We will see what plays out with the current crisis. It feels to me that we are being led very inadequately. I have more sympathy with the scenario that the current lot are facing, but they have a record of not paying care and attention to the job at hand, which isn’t ideal. |  |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:05 - Apr 25 with 1417 views | monytowbray |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:24 - Apr 25 by Churchman |
I was thinking about the people that do the work more than Ministers really, but even with them, I don’t think publishing everything they say and attend would be helpful. Of course we should hold politicians to account. 100%. I’ve no time for any of them and too many throughout the years have thought they are beyond that or even the law. But the ins and outs of government (with a small g) are complex and vast. And there’s a lot of it that’s very sensitive for all sorts of reasons. The Official Secrets Act is signed for a reason and all I’m saying is that a lot of what happens really doesn’t belong in the public arena. The outcomes most certainly do and politicians should certainly justify their actions at some point.
A classic example is Tony Blair and Iraq. I backed his actions totally. He recommended it, he was PM and had the accountability and as far as I was concerned, he didn’t need to justify them until it was over. Sadly he failed to do that, so he lost my vote at the following election. [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 17:26]
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The issue we have though is “trust us” without really telling us what we’re trusting and why, particularly as it’s obvious we’ve ballsed this up against the performance of other nations, isn’t how the world works. Would make my job easier if I could say that to clients. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:08 - Apr 25 with 1415 views | Churchman |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 17:53 - Apr 25 by vapour_trail |
That doesn’t really cut it on the accountability front though does it.
Launching an illegal invasion of a sovereign state, the murder of who knows how many hundreds of thousands of innocent people, and ensuing decades of carnage bestowed upon another part of the globe, and accountability involves losing a few votes at the ballot box.
Sub optimal.
We will see what plays out with the current crisis. It feels to me that we are being led very inadequately. I have more sympathy with the scenario that the current lot are facing, but they have a record of not paying care and attention to the job at hand, which isn’t ideal. |
My points were very much around how government actually works and I agree with both those points of yours. In terms of accountability, I’ve never understood how a minister can be pushed out one week for a misdemeanour and be reemployed a few months later. They get away with lying, fiddling expenses and for behaviour that would not be tolerated in the private sector or the rest of the public sector.
I’m sure there will be a public enquiry when this is over, but will it be honest, open and a lessons learned enquiry? I very much doubt it. It’ll be a snow job I suspect.
Please don’t think I’ve been defending the politicians. I think you’ve got to be temporarily or permanently mad to be one. I’ve just tried to explain how things work when the brown stuff hits the fan. Tbh I avoided politicians wherever I could like the plague! | | | |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:11 - Apr 25 with 1409 views | monytowbray |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:08 - Apr 25 by Churchman |
My points were very much around how government actually works and I agree with both those points of yours. In terms of accountability, I’ve never understood how a minister can be pushed out one week for a misdemeanour and be reemployed a few months later. They get away with lying, fiddling expenses and for behaviour that would not be tolerated in the private sector or the rest of the public sector.
I’m sure there will be a public enquiry when this is over, but will it be honest, open and a lessons learned enquiry? I very much doubt it. It’ll be a snow job I suspect.
Please don’t think I’ve been defending the politicians. I think you’ve got to be temporarily or permanently mad to be one. I’ve just tried to explain how things work when the brown stuff hits the fan. Tbh I avoided politicians wherever I could like the plague! |
I should add I totally get your point here too. Mine is more about the fact that how the world works and how it should work are two different things. If we become complacent in accepting a broken system then we only fuel that problem. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:23 - Apr 25 with 1393 views | Churchman |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:11 - Apr 25 by monytowbray |
I should add I totally get your point here too. Mine is more about the fact that how the world works and how it should work are two different things. If we become complacent in accepting a broken system then we only fuel that problem. |
I agree. Accepting a broken or outmoded system through complacency, or fear come to that, is just wrong. I’m all for challenge and where it’s right change. | | | |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:26 - Apr 25 with 1385 views | monytowbray |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:23 - Apr 25 by Churchman |
I agree. Accepting a broken or outmoded system through complacency, or fear come to that, is just wrong. I’m all for challenge and where it’s right change. |
I’ve concluded it doesn’t matter anymore. We will ride the neoliberal variations in tie colour that do nothing about the reality humanity faces in less than 100 years all to the end of civilisation.
Economies and who runs the country don’t really matter when we run out of food. [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 18:27]
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:55 - Apr 25 with 1353 views | NewcyBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 15:31 - Apr 25 by monytowbray |
“I fear you are looking for something that isn’t there.”
This has to be my favourite self own in the history of TWTD.
Some of us saw the writing on the wall early. Some of us posted about that.
Others swallowed what they were told like sheep and insisted others were political point scoring. Or that they’d get a rock on when loads of people died.
Stay classy.
Your edits are mildly amusing though. I guess it’s easier to pretend this is one big TROLOLOLOL for sh1ts and giggles than actually concede you might have defended the death toll. [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 15:33]
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“ Others swallowed what they were told like sheep and insisted others were political point scoring. Or that they’d get a rock on when loads of people died. ”
I think what pisses people off is that you seem to can’t wait to shout how right you are. We have someone from the NHS on here who at the time told you that the science obviously does change and that it is normal to change your plan.
There was another poster who said along the same lines.
I’ve told you the same. This was at a time when you were saying that it could be the start of an online mental breakdown for you.
People didn’t swallow. People just didn’t hit the panic button. There were plenty of us who could see both sides of the argument. Your twitter hashtag thread about those calling for Johnson to quit was pretty poor. He’s been incapacitated because of the virus and by many accounts it’s left a bit of a void. I don’t like BoJo. He’s racist. But he’s the leader of the Tory party, and at the moment the leader of this country.
New evidence about this virus is coming all the time. Recently there has been talk that people may not have the immunity to it once having had it. I expect that any evidence will have to be ratified by the U.K. science community before it is acted upon. Otherwise it’s responding to hearsay.
A situation such as this requires a calm head.
When I said to you that you’re not the only one on here with health anxiety, and your posting at the time being as negative as it was, could cause them harm, you replied with
“ Anyone with the same issues needs to take their own route to find comfort. The internet may not be the best place for everyone. ”
I don’t think the internet is the best place for you right now. You’re obviously not finding comfort here. I don’t know what to suggest, but lashing out at others is really poor form. |  |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:12 - Apr 25 with 1331 views | monytowbray |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 18:55 - Apr 25 by NewcyBlue |
“ Others swallowed what they were told like sheep and insisted others were political point scoring. Or that they’d get a rock on when loads of people died. ”
I think what pisses people off is that you seem to can’t wait to shout how right you are. We have someone from the NHS on here who at the time told you that the science obviously does change and that it is normal to change your plan.
There was another poster who said along the same lines.
I’ve told you the same. This was at a time when you were saying that it could be the start of an online mental breakdown for you.
People didn’t swallow. People just didn’t hit the panic button. There were plenty of us who could see both sides of the argument. Your twitter hashtag thread about those calling for Johnson to quit was pretty poor. He’s been incapacitated because of the virus and by many accounts it’s left a bit of a void. I don’t like BoJo. He’s racist. But he’s the leader of the Tory party, and at the moment the leader of this country.
New evidence about this virus is coming all the time. Recently there has been talk that people may not have the immunity to it once having had it. I expect that any evidence will have to be ratified by the U.K. science community before it is acted upon. Otherwise it’s responding to hearsay.
A situation such as this requires a calm head.
When I said to you that you’re not the only one on here with health anxiety, and your posting at the time being as negative as it was, could cause them harm, you replied with
“ Anyone with the same issues needs to take their own route to find comfort. The internet may not be the best place for everyone. ”
I don’t think the internet is the best place for you right now. You’re obviously not finding comfort here. I don’t know what to suggest, but lashing out at others is really poor form. |
You’re probably correct, but I also feel to sit back and say nothing is to be complacent.
I’d be nice if some posters here listened rather than getting their backs up from the off because the post says “callis” to the right of it.
Some of the dismissive views here are exactly why said party have got away with so much for a decade. It’s madness.
That hashtag thread has aged quite badly for many posters involved. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:23 - Apr 25 with 1324 views | NewcyBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:12 - Apr 25 by monytowbray |
You’re probably correct, but I also feel to sit back and say nothing is to be complacent.
I’d be nice if some posters here listened rather than getting their backs up from the off because the post says “callis” to the right of it.
Some of the dismissive views here are exactly why said party have got away with so much for a decade. It’s madness.
That hashtag thread has aged quite badly for many posters involved. |
“ That hashtag thread has aged quite badly for many posters involved.” including you at some points in it.
“ I’d be nice if some posters here listened rather than getting their backs up from the off because the post says “callis” to the right of it” - yes, but who are people bound to listen to, the government with all the science community advising them, or you? There may be people that share your opinions, but lashing out isn’t going to make many people say “do you know what? You were sort of right”. When in reality, the damage done because of this virus won’t be limited to the amount of people that died whilst we were in the pandemic. This is going to last for a generation, maybe not the virus, but the effects of it will. So, whilst I don’t think herd immunity is the way forward, the government had a lot more analytical power than I do. To protect my family, I did what I had to do based on my own judgement. As did you.
“ Some of the dismissive views here are exactly why said party have got away with so much for a decade. It’s madness”. I don’t think I have ever seen anyone on TWTD change their political views, stance, or opinion, based on what some berk on here has written. The same arguments happen again and again.
Years ago I said I doubted Corbyn was the answer, but hoped he was a catalyst for change. MrsN thought he was the answer. It made for some entertaining discussions.
I think more transparency is required, not just with this pandemic, but a lot of things. I also don’t think everything should be made available. There needs to be balance, in everything. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:29 - Apr 25 with 1316 views | monytowbray |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:23 - Apr 25 by NewcyBlue |
“ That hashtag thread has aged quite badly for many posters involved.” including you at some points in it.
“ I’d be nice if some posters here listened rather than getting their backs up from the off because the post says “callis” to the right of it” - yes, but who are people bound to listen to, the government with all the science community advising them, or you? There may be people that share your opinions, but lashing out isn’t going to make many people say “do you know what? You were sort of right”. When in reality, the damage done because of this virus won’t be limited to the amount of people that died whilst we were in the pandemic. This is going to last for a generation, maybe not the virus, but the effects of it will. So, whilst I don’t think herd immunity is the way forward, the government had a lot more analytical power than I do. To protect my family, I did what I had to do based on my own judgement. As did you.
“ Some of the dismissive views here are exactly why said party have got away with so much for a decade. It’s madness”. I don’t think I have ever seen anyone on TWTD change their political views, stance, or opinion, based on what some berk on here has written. The same arguments happen again and again.
Years ago I said I doubted Corbyn was the answer, but hoped he was a catalyst for change. MrsN thought he was the answer. It made for some entertaining discussions.
I think more transparency is required, not just with this pandemic, but a lot of things. I also don’t think everything should be made available. There needs to be balance, in everything. |
I don’t expect people to listen to me, but I’d expect them to listen to the information being relayed from other experts.
There’s certainly a balance with transparency, but I was once told “make sure everything you do and say at work factors in it could leak in the future and the ramifications of that.” For whatever that is worth.
With you on the Corbyn point. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:40 - Apr 25 with 1302 views | NewcyBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:29 - Apr 25 by monytowbray |
I don’t expect people to listen to me, but I’d expect them to listen to the information being relayed from other experts.
There’s certainly a balance with transparency, but I was once told “make sure everything you do and say at work factors in it could leak in the future and the ramifications of that.” For whatever that is worth.
With you on the Corbyn point. |
“I don’t expect people to listen to me, but I’d expect them to listen to the information being relayed from other experts.”
That’s the problem. So many years of being told not to listen to experts, and everyone has their own expert backing up their points. It’s a nightmare.
As for transparency and it leaking, I recently made a fuss of something to the detriment of my own career. But it was for the right reasons and for the welfare of my crew. My promotion has been postponed because of it. I am the most experienced person in my position in our fleet. I’m wanted by Captains to be their no.2. But that won’t be happening yet.
I think people need to take ownership. Of everything they do, and are involved in. Of everything they say. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:50 - Apr 25 with 1293 views | monytowbray |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:40 - Apr 25 by NewcyBlue |
“I don’t expect people to listen to me, but I’d expect them to listen to the information being relayed from other experts.”
That’s the problem. So many years of being told not to listen to experts, and everyone has their own expert backing up their points. It’s a nightmare.
As for transparency and it leaking, I recently made a fuss of something to the detriment of my own career. But it was for the right reasons and for the welfare of my crew. My promotion has been postponed because of it. I am the most experienced person in my position in our fleet. I’m wanted by Captains to be their no.2. But that won’t be happening yet.
I think people need to take ownership. Of everything they do, and are involved in. Of everything they say. |
I've done so much at the detriment of personal gain throughout my life and would do it again if I could. In fact I'd probably have went in even harder now in hindsight knowing I had much less to lose than others convinced me of.
Then again I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't understand how people tick along motivated by money and will literally suppress themselves or sell out to make it.
Alas I also work in marketing so there is a level of self-awareness there I can't vouch for. I was just grateful for the career 8 years ago when I had recently graduated into a recession and i ran with it. From my position now I wish I'd have went into some kind of MH support capacity but hindsight again.
There are good things I can do with my skill set though, just not sure how I translate that yet. I asked a couple of professionals in similar niches lately how the charity sector approaches the area I specialise in (SEO) and was told by a few they'd contacted charities before offering free consultation but were either met with a lack of interest, too much red tape for it to go anywhere or a combination of the two. I'm thinking plan B may be go out and find some small indie businesses that align with my principles and work for them, but it'll be a waste of time when everyone's a bit weary of spending money right now. | |
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