| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 22:51 - Apr 24 with 1230 views | JakeITFC |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:18 - Apr 24 by GlasgowBlue |
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Leave the science to the scientists though, surely? |  | |  |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 23:02 - Apr 24 with 1226 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 22:51 - Apr 24 by JakeITFC |
Leave the science to the scientists though, surely? |
Yes. Nobody is suggesting he should be there as anything other than an observer or to give feedback from a logistical point of view if the scientists ask for it. |  |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 23:10 - Apr 24 with 1218 views | longtimefan |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 21:35 - Apr 24 by factual_blue |
I can guess how much respect they'll have for him.
It'll be less than the current R number. |
Which presumably means he’s even less likely to have been able to influence them? |  | | |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 23:10 - Apr 24 with 1215 views | JakeITFC |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 23:02 - Apr 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes. Nobody is suggesting he should be there as anything other than an observer or to give feedback from a logistical point of view if the scientists ask for it. |
I think the accusation is exactly that, isn’t it? | | | |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 23:34 - Apr 24 with 1190 views | blustutu |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 19:52 - Apr 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Glad we got there in the end. And of course I'm interested in your opinion otherwise I wouldn't have asked you for it.
I believe this is the first time I've engaged with you under this username so I'm not sure what the sarky comment was for.
Edit. Now I have the final episode of Better Call Saul to watch and it's hard to follow with subtitles if I'm posting. [Post edited 24 Apr 2020 19:52]
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I used to love twtd. Your sanctimonious bs is one of the main reasons I come on here less. If you could debate it would be worth paying attention to you. But you can’t, so I won’t. |  | | |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 23:35 - Apr 24 with 1189 views | factual_blue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 23:10 - Apr 24 by longtimefan |
Which presumably means he’s even less likely to have been able to influence them? |
He's a know-nothing blowhard. |  |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:30 - Apr 25 with 1121 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 23:10 - Apr 24 by JakeITFC |
I think the accusation is exactly that, isn’t it? |
It would appear, like the fake NHS multiple twitter accounts nonsense, that the accusation is false.
As I said last night, the evidence given at yesterday’s select committee was telling.
All four CMOs, Whitty plus the CMO’s of all three devolved governments, are members of SAGE and evidence to the select committee to say they all work together and followed same science. They stated that there are only regional differences occasionally in execution.
The devolved governments CMO’s would have reported back to their Sturgeon, Foster and the Welsh bloke whose borane escapes me at the moment.
Do you not think that the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon of the Labour leader of the Welsh Parliament would have gone public if Cummings was interfering in the scientific decisions? [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 7:42]
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:34 - Apr 25 with 1115 views | m14_blue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:30 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
It would appear, like the fake NHS multiple twitter accounts nonsense, that the accusation is false.
As I said last night, the evidence given at yesterday’s select committee was telling.
All four CMOs, Whitty plus the CMO’s of all three devolved governments, are members of SAGE and evidence to the select committee to say they all work together and followed same science. They stated that there are only regional differences occasionally in execution.
The devolved governments CMO’s would have reported back to their Sturgeon, Foster and the Welsh bloke whose borane escapes me at the moment.
Do you not think that the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon of the Labour leader of the Welsh Parliament would have gone public if Cummings was interfering in the scientific decisions? [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 7:42]
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You’re probably right but a statement from number 10 was hardly going to say anything else was it? | | | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:42 - Apr 25 with 1114 views | itfcjoe |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:30 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
It would appear, like the fake NHS multiple twitter accounts nonsense, that the accusation is false.
As I said last night, the evidence given at yesterday’s select committee was telling.
All four CMOs, Whitty plus the CMO’s of all three devolved governments, are members of SAGE and evidence to the select committee to say they all work together and followed same science. They stated that there are only regional differences occasionally in execution.
The devolved governments CMO’s would have reported back to their Sturgeon, Foster and the Welsh bloke whose borane escapes me at the moment.
Do you not think that the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon of the Labour leader of the Welsh Parliament would have gone public if Cummings was interfering in the scientific decisions? [Post edited 25 Apr 2020 7:42]
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So they aren’t on Sage but they attend meetings and ask questions?
Like the Sunday Times rebuttal, this is just Trump style politics - just paint journalists as liars constantly, how long until they start saying Fake News in press conferences? |  |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:45 - Apr 25 with 1110 views | Dubtractor |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:42 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
So they aren’t on Sage but they attend meetings and ask questions?
Like the Sunday Times rebuttal, this is just Trump style politics - just paint journalists as liars constantly, how long until they start saying Fake News in press conferences? |
Yep. The "he isn't a member of sage but does attend the meetings" rebuttal is pretty weak tbh. |  |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:46 - Apr 25 with 1107 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:42 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
So they aren’t on Sage but they attend meetings and ask questions?
Like the Sunday Times rebuttal, this is just Trump style politics - just paint journalists as liars constantly, how long until they start saying Fake News in press conferences? |
Last week’s complaint: the government didn’t take the virus seriously.
This weeks complaint. The Government’s chief adviser was asking questions of the scientists.
Jeez. If ever there was confirmation bias on display. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:58 - Apr 25 with 1098 views | itfcjoe |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:46 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Last week’s complaint: the government didn’t take the virus seriously.
This weeks complaint. The Government’s chief adviser was asking questions of the scientists.
Jeez. If ever there was confirmation bias on display. |
Last week - PM doesn’t need to attend COBRA meetings
This week - PMs adviser needs to attend supposedly independent meetings
Like you say, confirmation bias | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:01 - Apr 25 with 1094 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:58 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
Last week - PM doesn’t need to attend COBRA meetings
This week - PMs adviser needs to attend supposedly independent meetings
Like you say, confirmation bias |
Because advisers go back to the PM and report.
Minister chairs COBR and reports back to PM. Advisor attends SAGE and reports back to the PM.
There is no conflict in my view there in the slightest. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:05 - Apr 25 with 1089 views | itfcjoe |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:01 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Because advisers go back to the PM and report.
Minister chairs COBR and reports back to PM. Advisor attends SAGE and reports back to the PM.
There is no conflict in my view there in the slightest. |
There’s no conflict on my views.
I think that politicians should deal with the politics and scientists should deal with the science.
Especially if we are claiming to be led by the science, there should be no political influence on that for that view to be taken seriously | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:08 - Apr 25 with 1082 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 07:45 - Apr 25 by Dubtractor |
Yep. The "he isn't a member of sage but does attend the meetings" rebuttal is pretty weak tbh. |
I’ll pose the same question to you as I did it somebody else last night.
Taking aside who the PM’s chief advisor is and whether you believe he should be the PM’s Chief Advisor, Do you believe that the PM's most senior advisor should attend SAGE meetings? | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:13 - Apr 25 with 1073 views | itfcjoe |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:08 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ll pose the same question to you as I did it somebody else last night.
Taking aside who the PM’s chief advisor is and whether you believe he should be the PM’s Chief Advisor, Do you believe that the PM's most senior advisor should attend SAGE meetings? |
I’ll stick to Sir Dave King’s view on it- remember he isn’t just ‘attending’ he is contributions.
Sir David King, the government's former chief scientific adviser, said he was concerned by Mr Cummings' attendance because if he participated in the discussion "this must compromise the independence" of the group.
He told BBC Newsnight: "What we don't know is the influence he plays in taking what he interprets from those meetings back to the prime minister." | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:15 - Apr 25 with 1067 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:05 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
There’s no conflict on my views.
I think that politicians should deal with the politics and scientists should deal with the science.
Especially if we are claiming to be led by the science, there should be no political influence on that for that view to be taken seriously |
Where have I said there should be political influence on the decisions made by the scientists? He should be there as an observer reporting back to the PM and so the scientists can ask advice regarding how certain measures can be implement through Parliament.
I’ll ask yiu the same question I just posed to dub. Taking aside who the PM’s chief advisor is and whether you believe he should be the PM’s Chief Advisor, Do you believe that the PM's most senior advisor should attend SAGE meetings?
And re my earlier post, Do you not think that the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon or the Labour leader of the Welsh Parliament would have gone public if Cummings was interfering in the scientific decisions? | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:17 - Apr 25 with 1059 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:13 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
I’ll stick to Sir Dave King’s view on it- remember he isn’t just ‘attending’ he is contributions.
Sir David King, the government's former chief scientific adviser, said he was concerned by Mr Cummings' attendance because if he participated in the discussion "this must compromise the independence" of the group.
He told BBC Newsnight: "What we don't know is the influence he plays in taking what he interprets from those meetings back to the prime minister." |
“ What we don't know is the influence he plays“. No he doesn’t, as he wasn’t there.
The CMO’s from the three devolved nations were there and would have reported back to their government leaders. If there was undue influence from Cummings do yiu nit think we’d have heard from Nicola Strgeon is at least seen it leaked to a nationalist Scottish newspaper?
This is another non story that people are trying to big up out of either confirmation bias or boredom. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:23 - Apr 25 with 1050 views | itfcjoe |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:15 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Where have I said there should be political influence on the decisions made by the scientists? He should be there as an observer reporting back to the PM and so the scientists can ask advice regarding how certain measures can be implement through Parliament.
I’ll ask yiu the same question I just posed to dub. Taking aside who the PM’s chief advisor is and whether you believe he should be the PM’s Chief Advisor, Do you believe that the PM's most senior advisor should attend SAGE meetings?
And re my earlier post, Do you not think that the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon or the Labour leader of the Welsh Parliament would have gone public if Cummings was interfering in the scientific decisions? |
Do you not think there is a danger that having a behavioural scientist in the meeting contributing that he may be able to exert influence without the others really being aware that it is being done to them? As that is literally what he is an expert in?
Nudge theory, etc.
If they are independent, there should be no political influence whatsoever in there. If they want to observe then fine - but that isn’t what is happening? | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:23 - Apr 25 with 1047 views | Dubtractor |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:08 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ll pose the same question to you as I did it somebody else last night.
Taking aside who the PM’s chief advisor is and whether you believe he should be the PM’s Chief Advisor, Do you believe that the PM's most senior advisor should attend SAGE meetings? |
"King said political advisers were never on the equivalent committees of Sage when he chaired them and argued that Cummings, who is not a scientist, could report his own interpretation of Sage advice back to the prime minister.
Other former members of Sage also said they could not recall political appointees being on previous committees. David Lidington, a former Cabinet Office minister and de facto deputy to Theresa May when she was prime minister, said: “I’m not aware of any minister or special adviser, certainly not in Theresa May’s time, ever having been involved in the scientific advisory panels.”" | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:24 - Apr 25 with 1044 views | itfcjoe |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:17 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
“ What we don't know is the influence he plays“. No he doesn’t, as he wasn’t there.
The CMO’s from the three devolved nations were there and would have reported back to their government leaders. If there was undue influence from Cummings do yiu nit think we’d have heard from Nicola Strgeon is at least seen it leaked to a nationalist Scottish newspaper?
This is another non story that people are trying to big up out of either confirmation bias or boredom. |
You’ve deliberately misquoted that - very disingenuous. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:28 - Apr 25 with 1036 views | Beckets |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:08 - Apr 25 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ll pose the same question to you as I did it somebody else last night.
Taking aside who the PM’s chief advisor is and whether you believe he should be the PM’s Chief Advisor, Do you believe that the PM's most senior advisor should attend SAGE meetings? |
The PM’s most senior adviser in these circumstances should be the a Cabinet Minister who chaired the meetings because the PM elected not to attend or was unable to attend. Not some unelected third party. |  | | |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:31 - Apr 25 with 1031 views | lowhouseblue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:23 - Apr 25 by itfcjoe |
Do you not think there is a danger that having a behavioural scientist in the meeting contributing that he may be able to exert influence without the others really being aware that it is being done to them? As that is literally what he is an expert in?
Nudge theory, etc.
If they are independent, there should be no political influence whatsoever in there. If they want to observe then fine - but that isn’t what is happening? |
"to exert influence without the others really being aware that it is being done to them"
jeez i didn't know cummings had super powers. a bit like the little britain hypnotist i guess. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:36 - Apr 25 with 1018 views | itfcjoe |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:31 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
"to exert influence without the others really being aware that it is being done to them"
jeez i didn't know cummings had super powers. a bit like the little britain hypnotist i guess. |
Cummings isn’t the behavioural scientist out of the two there.
You know what behavioural science is though,you know that people can control and nudge meetings along to where they want them to, it happens in all industries at all levels if there is someone who is a good people person and is allowed to exert their influences. | |
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| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:39 - Apr 25 with 1010 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I think we've found out why the government wouldn't name members of SAGE on 08:23 - Apr 25 by Dubtractor |
"King said political advisers were never on the equivalent committees of Sage when he chaired them and argued that Cummings, who is not a scientist, could report his own interpretation of Sage advice back to the prime minister.
Other former members of Sage also said they could not recall political appointees being on previous committees. David Lidington, a former Cabinet Office minister and de facto deputy to Theresa May when she was prime minister, said: “I’m not aware of any minister or special adviser, certainly not in Theresa May’s time, ever having been involved in the scientific advisory panels.”" |
Do you not think these are less than normal times?
I doubt you, Joe or I will change our views by doing this over another two or three pages, then other will join in and I’ll just end up repeating what I said to you over and over again.
I’ll end with, if the minutes prove that Cummings had any influence over the consensus taken by the scientists then it is a national scandal which should bring down the government. But I don’t believe that a group of the most eminent scientists in the day try would age rolled over for Cummings.
And I dint believe that first ministers would have carried out the same response across the U.K., even though they are all running different countries and from different political parties, because of decisions influenced by Dominic Cummings. | |
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