| Explain this one to me 19:09 - May 17 with 4502 views | bluelagos |
If a young kid gets one of those electric scooters and rides it on the road and/or pavement - he's liable to a fine.
Yet old people are allowed to do both on a mobility scooter thingy.
Why the inconsistency? |  |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:46 - May 18 with 1492 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 09:41 - May 18 by noggin |
In theory, yes, but in practice, the public are dicks and abuse the scooters. |
The public also abuse push bikes, motorcars and cars. You want to ban those too? | |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:47 - May 18 with 1482 views | StokieBlue |
| Explain this one to me on 09:44 - May 18 by bluelagos |
I experienced them first hand in Paris. Worked a treat as it happens. Reckon in built up areas with heavy traffic they would help alleviate congestion and make everyone's journeys better.
As to why are they largely tolerated at the moment given their use on public roads/paths is not permitted - I guess that is a wider question around policing resources and policing priorities. They probably consider their use to be no more harmless than say cyclists on pavements. |
I thought they were utterly awful in Paris as did everyone I've spoken to about it. In fact you are the only person I know who seemed to think they worked well in Paris. I guess different people see different things.
I see electric scooters on pavements far more than I see cyclists and the velocities are always very different. It's just too easy to accelerate and go quickly on an electric scooter and there is less control with steering and stopping in my view.
What about using them without a driving licence which is also illegal?
I guess this is one we won't agree on :).
SB |  |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:48 - May 18 with 1474 views | StokieBlue |
| Explain this one to me on 09:46 - May 18 by bluelagos |
The public also abuse push bikes, motorcars and cars. You want to ban those too? |
Not sure that's a good argument though.
Just because something is already abused it doesn't mean you should add more things that can easily be abused.
Cars and motorbikes also can't be used unlicensed and easily accessed by kids so it's not a like-for-like comparison.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:49 - May 18 with 1467 views | noggin |
| Explain this one to me on 09:46 - May 18 by bluelagos |
The public also abuse push bikes, motorcars and cars. You want to ban those too? |
I agree, I was just saying that the theory of their use is not the reality and that they are both dangerous and an eyesore in built up areas. I myself, have ridden home drunk on one and found them very difficult to control when intoxicated. They are often placed close to pubs and easily available to the wrong people. [Post edited 18 May 2021 9:53]
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| Explain this one to me on 09:50 - May 18 with 1459 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 09:47 - May 18 by StokieBlue |
I thought they were utterly awful in Paris as did everyone I've spoken to about it. In fact you are the only person I know who seemed to think they worked well in Paris. I guess different people see different things.
I see electric scooters on pavements far more than I see cyclists and the velocities are always very different. It's just too easy to accelerate and go quickly on an electric scooter and there is less control with steering and stopping in my view.
What about using them without a driving licence which is also illegal?
I guess this is one we won't agree on :).
SB |
If it were me in charge, I'd treat them just bike bicycles. So not on pavements but in cycle lanes. Would probably limit them to 15 mph for safety reasons.
I'd also maybe have faster ones that need licences / helmets / insurance that can do whatever speed is legal. So not for kids and/or drunks.
You considered the green benefits of them? There is the fun angle (which I love) but there is also the fact that they help get people out of cars. | |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:54 - May 18 with 1450 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 09:48 - May 18 by StokieBlue |
Not sure that's a good argument though.
Just because something is already abused it doesn't mean you should add more things that can easily be abused.
Cars and motorbikes also can't be used unlicensed and easily accessed by kids so it's not a like-for-like comparison.
SB |
The argument made was to ban them because some people abuse them. My position is to allow them.
Same for alcohol really. Some people abuse it, including youngsters. Yet it is only a full on puritan who would argue we should ban it.
Now sure why people want to ban everything they don't approve of. Live and let live Stokie :-) | |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:54 - May 18 with 1444 views | BiGDonnie |
| Explain this one to me on 20:07 - May 17 by StokieBlue |
Because one is a death trap and was right banned previously in my opinion and the other goes at about 5mph and is massive.
Really not a fan of the electric scooters, I think the injury rate from them will be proven to be pretty high in a few years time.
Hopefully I am wrong.
SB |
My boys got one, but he's not allowed to use on the road, we stick to parks, trails etc. We've had comments from people in parks moaning about them ffs |  |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:55 - May 18 with 1443 views | StokieBlue |
| Explain this one to me on 09:50 - May 18 by bluelagos |
If it were me in charge, I'd treat them just bike bicycles. So not on pavements but in cycle lanes. Would probably limit them to 15 mph for safety reasons.
I'd also maybe have faster ones that need licences / helmets / insurance that can do whatever speed is legal. So not for kids and/or drunks.
You considered the green benefits of them? There is the fun angle (which I love) but there is also the fact that they help get people out of cars. |
You've shifted the context now though.
They aren't limited to 15mph and people don't need licences helmets or insurance for the existing ones that are faster than 15mph.
I would reconsider my stance if robust rules were put in place like those you've cited and they were actually enforced but I just don't think they will be. Perhaps I will be proven wrong.
There are green benefits of course but it's still less green than getting a bike and not as good for the riders health. Given you are saying they should be restricted to cycle lanes should we not be pushing bikes rather than electric transport?
SB | |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:56 - May 18 with 1438 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 09:49 - May 18 by noggin |
I agree, I was just saying that the theory of their use is not the reality and that they are both dangerous and an eyesore in built up areas. I myself, have ridden home drunk on one and found them very difficult to control when intoxicated. They are often placed close to pubs and easily available to the wrong people. [Post edited 18 May 2021 9:53]
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So there is an argument we should have some limits/controls on them, such as where you can ride them and/or an alcohol limit...
If we are going for alcohol limits, do we also breathalize oldies on their mobility scooters? | |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:57 - May 18 with 1432 views | noggin |
| Explain this one to me on 09:56 - May 18 by bluelagos |
So there is an argument we should have some limits/controls on them, such as where you can ride them and/or an alcohol limit...
If we are going for alcohol limits, do we also breathalize oldies on their mobility scooters? |
"If we are going for alcohol limits, do we also breathalize oldies on their mobility scooters?"
Yes, absolutely. | |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:58 - May 18 with 1430 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 09:54 - May 18 by BiGDonnie |
My boys got one, but he's not allowed to use on the road, we stick to parks, trails etc. We've had comments from people in parks moaning about them ffs |
I always smile whenever I see a kid blasting around on one. A future motorbiker. And we all know they are the cool kids ;-) | |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:58 - May 18 with 1429 views | StokieBlue |
| Explain this one to me on 09:54 - May 18 by bluelagos |
The argument made was to ban them because some people abuse them. My position is to allow them.
Same for alcohol really. Some people abuse it, including youngsters. Yet it is only a full on puritan who would argue we should ban it.
Now sure why people want to ban everything they don't approve of. Live and let live Stokie :-) |
That's not what has been said though.
You compared it to things which are already legal and asked should we ban them. That is the opposite to adding something else which is currently illegal.
It's not live and let live if one feels it's something dangerous as it affects other people. I don't want to ban it. It's already banned, it's your position to make it legal which is once again different.
As I said, I would have less objections if they implemented the rules you cited but I haven't seen any intention of doing that.
SB [Post edited 18 May 2021 9:59]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Explain this one to me on 09:59 - May 18 with 1424 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 09:57 - May 18 by noggin |
"If we are going for alcohol limits, do we also breathalize oldies on their mobility scooters?"
Yes, absolutely. |
Now, about our policing budgets / priorities... :-) | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:04 - May 18 with 1417 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 09:55 - May 18 by StokieBlue |
You've shifted the context now though.
They aren't limited to 15mph and people don't need licences helmets or insurance for the existing ones that are faster than 15mph.
I would reconsider my stance if robust rules were put in place like those you've cited and they were actually enforced but I just don't think they will be. Perhaps I will be proven wrong.
There are green benefits of course but it's still less green than getting a bike and not as good for the riders health. Given you are saying they should be restricted to cycle lanes should we not be pushing bikes rather than electric transport?
SB |
Pretty sure the 15 mph limit is for those on trial.
Shifted the context? The whole point of the current trials is to learn the lessons of them so the regulators can decide what rules (if any) can be put in place to legalise their use. (or not)
I am opening up the discussion as to what rules (if any) should be in place. Of course some people just hate them, just like some people just hate anyone on 2 wheels. But the rest of us can have a mature conversation about them irrespective :-) | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:09 - May 18 with 1414 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 09:58 - May 18 by StokieBlue |
That's not what has been said though.
You compared it to things which are already legal and asked should we ban them. That is the opposite to adding something else which is currently illegal.
It's not live and let live if one feels it's something dangerous as it affects other people. I don't want to ban it. It's already banned, it's your position to make it legal which is once again different.
As I said, I would have less objections if they implemented the rules you cited but I haven't seen any intention of doing that.
SB [Post edited 18 May 2021 9:59]
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Without getting overly technical they are not illegal.
My position is that we should insure them (to prevent riding them being a crime). Can see no reason at all why insurers can't insure them now (They chose not to) which is what makes riding on a road them illegal (Driving with no insurance)
Bit of semantics, but I know you like me to be accurate :-) | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:16 - May 18 with 1398 views | noggin |
| Explain this one to me on 09:59 - May 18 by bluelagos |
Now, about our policing budgets / priorities... :-) |
That's another argument. Are you saying that because the police don't have the resources to investigate burglary, that it should be legalised? | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:18 - May 18 with 1391 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Explain this one to me on 09:58 - May 18 by bluelagos |
I always smile whenever I see a kid blasting around on one. A future motorbiker. And we all know they are the cool kids ;-) |
"Coming to a morgue near you soon" |  |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:19 - May 18 with 1389 views | StokieBlue |
| Explain this one to me on 10:09 - May 18 by bluelagos |
Without getting overly technical they are not illegal.
My position is that we should insure them (to prevent riding them being a crime). Can see no reason at all why insurers can't insure them now (They chose not to) which is what makes riding on a road them illegal (Driving with no insurance)
Bit of semantics, but I know you like me to be accurate :-) |
As it stands it's illegal to use a privately owned eScooter either on roads or in public areas. I am not sure about your insurance reasoning as in that case it wouldn't be illegal to ride them in public areas.
Why do you think they choose not to insure them? Perhaps they feel the risk of claims is too high?
As I said, happy to modify my position if the appropriate rules are put in place but that isn't the case at the moment in my opinion.
For instance, if you are using an trial eScooter but only have a provisional licence you are supposed to display L plates. Do you think that happens?
I am sure they will have a place in future transport, once the rules and regulations are in place but as with everything, the tech always outpaces the rules.
SB | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:20 - May 18 with 1385 views | Coastalblue |
| Explain this one to me on 09:39 - May 18 by StokieBlue |
Once again though, your experiences of them are very limited and in a rural environment. I wonder if you'd have the same opinions if you lived in a crowded city and had seen their usage there over a long period.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e-scooter-trials-guidance-for-users
It's illegal to use them on the roads or in public spaces but I see them used all the time, all day, every day. Why is that tolerated if they are illegal? You also need a driving licence to use one which clearly isn't the case for a lot of kids using them. In the end it's a motorised vehicle and you've always needed a licence to use one of those whatever the form.
SB |
It's not actually tolerated now, though there are huge numbers of them out there. Part of my role these days is collecting seized vehicles from the Met and taking them to the pound, we pick up dozens of them that have been siezed on a weekly basis.
You're right, they are a complete menace, some of them will top 30mph easily, and do regardless of speed limits while ignoring traffic lights etc.
Interestingly enough we also collect a lot of ebikes, many of those being used are not legal, though I suspect people buying them are unaware. |  |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:22 - May 18 with 1379 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 10:16 - May 18 by noggin |
That's another argument. Are you saying that because the police don't have the resources to investigate burglary, that it should be legalised? |
No.
I just think the benefits to the environment from the widespread adoption of electric scooters on public roads far outweighs the arguments for prohibiting their use. | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:26 - May 18 with 1367 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 10:19 - May 18 by StokieBlue |
As it stands it's illegal to use a privately owned eScooter either on roads or in public areas. I am not sure about your insurance reasoning as in that case it wouldn't be illegal to ride them in public areas.
Why do you think they choose not to insure them? Perhaps they feel the risk of claims is too high?
As I said, happy to modify my position if the appropriate rules are put in place but that isn't the case at the moment in my opinion.
For instance, if you are using an trial eScooter but only have a provisional licence you are supposed to display L plates. Do you think that happens?
I am sure they will have a place in future transport, once the rules and regulations are in place but as with everything, the tech always outpaces the rules.
SB |
It's only illegal to use because they are not insured. There is no explicit law banning their use. (I have read up on it)
Don't really know why they remain uninsured. Seems like a good alternative revenue stream to me.
So the trials (I read up on the colchester one) the only training is basically e-learning - so clearly not as comprehensive as cbt training needed for a 125 l-plated scooter.
"I am sure they will have a place in future transport, once the rules and regulations are in place but as with everything, the tech always outpaces the rules. " - Yep , let's hope so :-) | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:27 - May 18 with 1363 views | bluelagos |
| Explain this one to me on 10:20 - May 18 by Coastalblue |
It's not actually tolerated now, though there are huge numbers of them out there. Part of my role these days is collecting seized vehicles from the Met and taking them to the pound, we pick up dozens of them that have been siezed on a weekly basis.
You're right, they are a complete menace, some of them will top 30mph easily, and do regardless of speed limits while ignoring traffic lights etc.
Interestingly enough we also collect a lot of ebikes, many of those being used are not legal, though I suspect people buying them are unaware. |
What's the issue with the e-bikes? | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:30 - May 18 with 1355 views | belgablue |
| Explain this one to me on 09:55 - May 18 by StokieBlue |
You've shifted the context now though.
They aren't limited to 15mph and people don't need licences helmets or insurance for the existing ones that are faster than 15mph.
I would reconsider my stance if robust rules were put in place like those you've cited and they were actually enforced but I just don't think they will be. Perhaps I will be proven wrong.
There are green benefits of course but it's still less green than getting a bike and not as good for the riders health. Given you are saying they should be restricted to cycle lanes should we not be pushing bikes rather than electric transport?
SB |
Having lived around them for the last few years in Brussels I can say that those scooters and the people that use them are a (lethal) nuisance. In the last year or so a few similar e-bike pay as go services have popped up which I think are a good compromise and much safer. We actually have proper cycle lanes here which also helps. |  |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:30 - May 18 with 1354 views | Coastalblue |
| Explain this one to me on 10:22 - May 18 by bluelagos |
No.
I just think the benefits to the environment from the widespread adoption of electric scooters on public roads far outweighs the arguments for prohibiting their use. |
I wouldn't obect to them seeing widespread use in London, I think actually they could prove to be a good thing done right.
I'd suggest those using them should have to have proper training, be made to use lights and then be insured and registered, being required to wear a high vis top with their registration number on the back. I know it's open to abuse but if they are wearing their own then there's enough cameras around to catch them if they're using them like dicks. | |
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| Explain this one to me on 10:32 - May 18 with 1352 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Explain this one to me on 10:27 - May 18 by bluelagos |
What's the issue with the e-bikes? |
If they're anything like the e-bike that caused the fire in footers' place, mainly around charging I would suspect! | |
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