| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 23:21 - Mar 2 with 1227 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 23:03 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
No they haven’t said that. But this line about a “false equivalence” comes from earlier when talking about STW.
It was a misrepresentation then and now. But especially post-invasion where it’s meant to suggest people are excusing Putin’s actions.
Literally a month after everyone was clutching their pearls over Johnson’s slur about Savile too. |
“ The truth is that the current crisis in Ukraine is caused by the eastward expansion of NATO. NATO is the aggressor not Russia.”
…………
“We see that the United States has decided that it needs to send US and other NATO troops to Russia’s borders. This alone should tell us that the claims that Russia is the aggressor should be treated sceptically. The destabilisation in the entire region comes from the continued eastward expansion of NATO.”
………….
“ We urge the entire anti-war movement to unite on the basis of challenging the British government’s aggressive posturing and direct its campaigning to that end above all.”
…………..
“ Young Labour calls on the leadership to stop backing NATO aggression, call wholeheartedly for peace, commit to constructive engagement with activists and deliver international policy around peace and cooperation”.
Good Night!! |  |
|  |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 23:35 - Mar 2 with 1194 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 23:21 - Mar 2 by GlasgowBlue |
“ The truth is that the current crisis in Ukraine is caused by the eastward expansion of NATO. NATO is the aggressor not Russia.”
…………
“We see that the United States has decided that it needs to send US and other NATO troops to Russia’s borders. This alone should tell us that the claims that Russia is the aggressor should be treated sceptically. The destabilisation in the entire region comes from the continued eastward expansion of NATO.”
………….
“ We urge the entire anti-war movement to unite on the basis of challenging the British government’s aggressive posturing and direct its campaigning to that end above all.”
…………..
“ Young Labour calls on the leadership to stop backing NATO aggression, call wholeheartedly for peace, commit to constructive engagement with activists and deliver international policy around peace and cooperation”.
Good Night!! |
You’re well aware that these were from before the invasion. Stop conflating that with Putin absolutely crossing the line.
Yes, in the buildup, there is a case for talking about NATO’s role. Also because that’s the specific role of a domestic anti-war movement.
Read this from a few months ago. What do you disagree with and why? And without pretending it was written yesterday to dismiss it as apologising for Putin’s appalling invasion.
https://www.vox.com/22900113/nato-ukraine-russia-crisis-clinton-expansion |  |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 06:44 - Mar 3 with 1127 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 23:35 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
You’re well aware that these were from before the invasion. Stop conflating that with Putin absolutely crossing the line.
Yes, in the buildup, there is a case for talking about NATO’s role. Also because that’s the specific role of a domestic anti-war movement.
Read this from a few months ago. What do you disagree with and why? And without pretending it was written yesterday to dismiss it as apologising for Putin’s appalling invasion.
https://www.vox.com/22900113/nato-ukraine-russia-crisis-clinton-expansion |
You said “it was a misrepresentation then and now”.
There was no misrepresentation. It’s all there in b & w. | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:04 - Mar 3 with 1083 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 06:44 - Mar 3 by GlasgowBlue |
You said “it was a misrepresentation then and now”.
There was no misrepresentation. It’s all there in b & w. |
Yes, it’s a misrepresentation.
You’ve particularly tried to conflate these statements with what has happened since. When at the time it looked like this was still just about the Donbas regions. Hell, all the usual crowd of disingenuous, left-punchers in Labour and the media have.
They’re not blaming Putin for the invasion – that’s on him. As for blaming NATO for ramping up the tension in the area, as domestic anti-war protesters with that exact aim to hold their own leaders and allies in check, then yes.
I notice you just breezed past the article. If you’re interested in bad-faith point-scoring rather than understanding concerns and different perspectives then that’s to be expected. But be under no illusion that this very attitude of defending and reinforcing narratives is what gets us into wars and gets innocent people killed.
Especially under the pretence that it’s always been about the Ukrainian people. The last 20 years of foreign interventions and manoeuvrings should have blown that self-serving delusion out of the water. | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:10 - Mar 3 with 1061 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:04 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, it’s a misrepresentation.
You’ve particularly tried to conflate these statements with what has happened since. When at the time it looked like this was still just about the Donbas regions. Hell, all the usual crowd of disingenuous, left-punchers in Labour and the media have.
They’re not blaming Putin for the invasion – that’s on him. As for blaming NATO for ramping up the tension in the area, as domestic anti-war protesters with that exact aim to hold their own leaders and allies in check, then yes.
I notice you just breezed past the article. If you’re interested in bad-faith point-scoring rather than understanding concerns and different perspectives then that’s to be expected. But be under no illusion that this very attitude of defending and reinforcing narratives is what gets us into wars and gets innocent people killed.
Especially under the pretence that it’s always been about the Ukrainian people. The last 20 years of foreign interventions and manoeuvrings should have blown that self-serving delusion out of the water. |
I like the way you post one sentence making clear you’re blaming Putin for the invasion, and then post 3 paragraphs saying how actually it’s all NATO/the West/media/left-punchers fault. Marvellous stuff |  |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:20 - Mar 3 with 1035 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:10 - Mar 3 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
I like the way you post one sentence making clear you’re blaming Putin for the invasion, and then post 3 paragraphs saying how actually it’s all NATO/the West/media/left-punchers fault. Marvellous stuff |
I’m talking about Stop The War’s complaints about NATO and their actual focus on lobbying/campaigning towards our side to stop war.
But I see people willfully or unconsciously fail to understand that.
Of course, as a whole then Putin is by far the cause of this and the invasion itself is certainly on him. It shouldn’t need saying but we unfortunately live in a world where people who want peace and justice (and a change in the approach that has led us here) are seen as the traitors.
You do you. | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:36 - Mar 3 with 996 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:20 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
I’m talking about Stop The War’s complaints about NATO and their actual focus on lobbying/campaigning towards our side to stop war.
But I see people willfully or unconsciously fail to understand that.
Of course, as a whole then Putin is by far the cause of this and the invasion itself is certainly on him. It shouldn’t need saying but we unfortunately live in a world where people who want peace and justice (and a change in the approach that has led us here) are seen as the traitors.
You do you. |
STW still drawing false equivalence between Nato and the actions of Russia in Ukraine.
| |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:43 - Mar 3 with 983 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:36 - Mar 3 by GlasgowBlue |
STW still drawing false equivalence between Nato and the actions of Russia in Ukraine.
|
I must have said this 10 times now but their role is to lobby/campaign our government and allies. Hence the legitimate focus on NATO expansionism (keep dodging that article by the way).
And of course they’re against the invasion and want the Russian troops out.
Jeez. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 10:25 - Mar 3 with 930 views | gordon |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:43 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
I must have said this 10 times now but their role is to lobby/campaign our government and allies. Hence the legitimate focus on NATO expansionism (keep dodging that article by the way).
And of course they’re against the invasion and want the Russian troops out.
Jeez. |
BTW do you agree with any of this article?
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/the-labour-left-needs-to-get-seriou
The fact that Stop the War Coalition seems to have mostly stopped spewing nonsense since the war started, and have deleted some of their old articles in support of Putin re Crimea is definitely positive, but do you think there will be any reflection at any point on how/why they got this so wrong? |  | | |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 10:47 - Mar 3 with 894 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 10:25 - Mar 3 by gordon |
BTW do you agree with any of this article?
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/the-labour-left-needs-to-get-seriou
The fact that Stop the War Coalition seems to have mostly stopped spewing nonsense since the war started, and have deleted some of their old articles in support of Putin re Crimea is definitely positive, but do you think there will be any reflection at any point on how/why they got this so wrong? |
No. It does the same job of ignoring long-standing concerns about NATO’s role and suggests it should have all been about picking sides in a black and white, right vs wrong situation.
The invasion changes everything and there has been “no false equivalence with Russia’s actions in Ukraine”. Stop The War have condemned it in no uncertain terms. But continuously conflating their concerns about NATO with the suggestion that they have somehow picked the wrong side or are justifying Putin is a blatant misrepresentation.
People could accept that an anti-war movement might have a point about tensions and escalations given the history surrounding Ukraine over the past couple of decades. But also because this is exactly where we’ve ended up with our official and sanctioned position!!!
The reason it’s not a sideshow and another view in the debate is because of an ironically authoritarian streak in our politics and media that can’t take even a passing glance at itself in the mirror. Throw in the usual factional nonsense and desire to purge the left from politics and it’s now a far, bigger issue and for all the wrong reasons.
Meanwhile people can seemingly throw around comments about No Fly Zones and too many people are nodding along. If we want to avoid war and prevent suffering I’d suggest there are more important and dangerous voices that should be neutralised even if they are absolutely and 100% “on our side”. | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:08 - Mar 3 with 856 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 10:25 - Mar 3 by gordon |
BTW do you agree with any of this article?
https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/the-labour-left-needs-to-get-seriou
The fact that Stop the War Coalition seems to have mostly stopped spewing nonsense since the war started, and have deleted some of their old articles in support of Putin re Crimea is definitely positive, but do you think there will be any reflection at any point on how/why they got this so wrong? |
Thanks for sharing. That's a very good piece by Mason. | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:16 - Mar 3 with 823 views | stopmoaning |
Do you know what won't stop Russia, a protest in the UK, that's what. |  | | |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:20 - Mar 3 with 813 views | chicoazul |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:36 - Mar 3 by GlasgowBlue |
STW still drawing false equivalence between Nato and the actions of Russia in Ukraine.
|
We promised Gorbachev that NATO would not continue its eastward expansion and yet North Macedonia joined as recently as 2020. NATO is not to blame for this invasion; NATO does need to look at itself. I still haven’t heard a viable argument for it’s continuing existence. |  |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:21 - Mar 3 with 810 views | gordon |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 10:47 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
No. It does the same job of ignoring long-standing concerns about NATO’s role and suggests it should have all been about picking sides in a black and white, right vs wrong situation.
The invasion changes everything and there has been “no false equivalence with Russia’s actions in Ukraine”. Stop The War have condemned it in no uncertain terms. But continuously conflating their concerns about NATO with the suggestion that they have somehow picked the wrong side or are justifying Putin is a blatant misrepresentation.
People could accept that an anti-war movement might have a point about tensions and escalations given the history surrounding Ukraine over the past couple of decades. But also because this is exactly where we’ve ended up with our official and sanctioned position!!!
The reason it’s not a sideshow and another view in the debate is because of an ironically authoritarian streak in our politics and media that can’t take even a passing glance at itself in the mirror. Throw in the usual factional nonsense and desire to purge the left from politics and it’s now a far, bigger issue and for all the wrong reasons.
Meanwhile people can seemingly throw around comments about No Fly Zones and too many people are nodding along. If we want to avoid war and prevent suffering I’d suggest there are more important and dangerous voices that should be neutralised even if they are absolutely and 100% “on our side”. |
Or George Monbiot?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/russian-propaganda-anti-im | | | |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:28 - Mar 3 with 782 views | Darth_Koont |
I don’t agree with more extreme views (the neo-Nazi stuff is silly in the context of the region) so of course I don’t agree with everything.
Similarly I don’t agree with Monbiot’s basic misapprehension about who Stop The War is meant to be lobbying towards or what they are standing for. “Boo Putin!” absolutely, but it’s empty posturing compared to raising the bar on our own standards and accepted practices so that more conflicts are avoided.
You can at least accept that point surely? | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:32 - Mar 3 with 760 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 09:20 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
I’m talking about Stop The War’s complaints about NATO and their actual focus on lobbying/campaigning towards our side to stop war.
But I see people willfully or unconsciously fail to understand that.
Of course, as a whole then Putin is by far the cause of this and the invasion itself is certainly on him. It shouldn’t need saying but we unfortunately live in a world where people who want peace and justice (and a change in the approach that has led us here) are seen as the traitors.
You do you. |
And again, in your third paragraph you say Putin is the cause of this but then go on to say that actually it’s NATO’s approach which has led us here
No wonder everyone else seems to be completely failing to understand your 100% clear position | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:34 - Mar 3 with 756 views | gordon |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:28 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
I don’t agree with more extreme views (the neo-Nazi stuff is silly in the context of the region) so of course I don’t agree with everything.
Similarly I don’t agree with Monbiot’s basic misapprehension about who Stop The War is meant to be lobbying towards or what they are standing for. “Boo Putin!” absolutely, but it’s empty posturing compared to raising the bar on our own standards and accepted practices so that more conflicts are avoided.
You can at least accept that point surely? |
https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/ten-myths-about-the-ukraine-crisis/
With shameful stuff like this still on the Stop the War website, how could anyone take them seriously?
The stuff about Ukraine and the Maidan revolution there is nothing more than Putin propaganda. [Post edited 3 Mar 2022 11:35]
| | | |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:56 - Mar 3 with 714 views | Darth_Koont |
He overeggs the point about neo-Nazism and I believe the situation has improved over the years anyway. It’s to support his claim about shared Western values which certainly rings true as a way to justify various outposts around the world regardless of whether they should be.
But in general I agree with his points. Particularly the last one which is at the heart of the misunderstanding/misrepresentation.
“(Myth) The anti-war movement should confront Russia
We are against war in Ukraine. The differences should be negotiated peacefully, respecting Ukrainian rights and Russian security concerns. Our focus is, however, on the British government — how it has contributed to the present situation through its post-Cold War policy of backing NATO expansion and moving its own troops eastwards, and how its bellicose rhetoric and arms sales are aggravating it now. Our contribution to peace must lie in forcing our own government to assist de-escalation of the crisis.”
Can you agree that’s not the same as being pro-Putin and that this is where a domestic anti-war movement should be putting its efforts? | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 12:01 - Mar 3 with 704 views | gordon |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 11:56 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
He overeggs the point about neo-Nazism and I believe the situation has improved over the years anyway. It’s to support his claim about shared Western values which certainly rings true as a way to justify various outposts around the world regardless of whether they should be.
But in general I agree with his points. Particularly the last one which is at the heart of the misunderstanding/misrepresentation.
“(Myth) The anti-war movement should confront Russia
We are against war in Ukraine. The differences should be negotiated peacefully, respecting Ukrainian rights and Russian security concerns. Our focus is, however, on the British government — how it has contributed to the present situation through its post-Cold War policy of backing NATO expansion and moving its own troops eastwards, and how its bellicose rhetoric and arms sales are aggravating it now. Our contribution to peace must lie in forcing our own government to assist de-escalation of the crisis.”
Can you agree that’s not the same as being pro-Putin and that this is where a domestic anti-war movement should be putting its efforts? |
The information in that article about Ukraine and the events of 2014 is completely false and it's the same nonsense that Putin apologists in Russia are using to justify a genocide. | | | |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 12:13 - Mar 3 with 685 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 12:01 - Mar 3 by gordon |
The information in that article about Ukraine and the events of 2014 is completely false and it's the same nonsense that Putin apologists in Russia are using to justify a genocide. |
“Completely false”?
Or going too far to combat the neat narrative that Ukraine is just like us and doesn’t have some pretty big democratic deficits? As I say, I don’t buy his characterisation here fully because there’s a context in that region but there has been a lot of whitewashing going on.
And nothing that means they are justifying an invasion or certainly a genocide.
We can go round in circles discussing the background details and what is fair or not. But can you at least agree that the main focus on the UK and its role is a legitimate one for them? | |
| |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 12:21 - Mar 3 with 652 views | gordon |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 12:13 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
“Completely false”?
Or going too far to combat the neat narrative that Ukraine is just like us and doesn’t have some pretty big democratic deficits? As I say, I don’t buy his characterisation here fully because there’s a context in that region but there has been a lot of whitewashing going on.
And nothing that means they are justifying an invasion or certainly a genocide.
We can go round in circles discussing the background details and what is fair or not. But can you at least agree that the main focus on the UK and its role is a legitimate one for them? |
Really sorry to say this, because I don't enjoy conflict on TWTD (I met my match with GB over Brexit, and vowed never again), but both STW and yourself come across as just not knowing the first thing about Ukraine's recent history, and finding agreement in whatever narrative you come across that meets your pre-determined views, irrespective of whether it's grounded in truth or not. | | | |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 12:34 - Mar 3 with 617 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 12:21 - Mar 3 by gordon |
Really sorry to say this, because I don't enjoy conflict on TWTD (I met my match with GB over Brexit, and vowed never again), but both STW and yourself come across as just not knowing the first thing about Ukraine's recent history, and finding agreement in whatever narrative you come across that meets your pre-determined views, irrespective of whether it's grounded in truth or not. |
Sorry to hear that. But I agree we’re at an impasse.
Even a cursory glance at Amnesty reports into the Ukraine over the years will back up that it’s had its own problems despite moving in the right direction. And of course that doesn’t mean Russia has any moral high ground, quite the opposite.
To re-iterate this isn’t about right vs. wrong per se. And the big mistake is to think that we have right on our side.
Self-examination and a focus on our own standards is a paramount consideration given the mistakes of the past. Especially as that’s a likely path to de-escalation and finding a peaceful settlement sooner rather than later for the sake of preventing the death of thousands (potentially millions) of innocent victims and ending the cycle of violence. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
