| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 17:17 - Mar 2 with 1576 views | chicoazul |
John McDonnell is a bit of a knob but to kick him out of the party for that is utterly insane. |  |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 17:26 - Mar 2 with 1546 views | giant_stow |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 17:17 - Mar 2 by chicoazul |
John McDonnell is a bit of a knob but to kick him out of the party for that is utterly insane. |
He's backed down now I think and not attending. |  |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 17:49 - Mar 2 with 1517 views | BlueBadger |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 16:17 - Mar 2 by GlasgowBlue |
The state of this from Labour Left Alliance.
"We are against NATO as a clearly US directed predatory alliance which is against humanity"
"They are intent on encircling Russia with hostile regimes and military bases, this is the culmination of 3 decades of strategic tricks and manoeuvres."
'Putin fell into a trap laid by Joe Biden"
"I'm for the defeat of Ukraine in this battle"
"it's not [Zelenskyy's] Jewishness that's the problem it's that he's a Zionist and he works with fascists" |
For the benefit of anyone reading that, that last line is DEFINITELY not anti-semitism, it's British irony. [Post edited 2 Mar 2022 18:03]
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 18:54 - Mar 2 with 1449 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 17:49 - Mar 2 by BlueBadger |
For the benefit of anyone reading that, that last line is DEFINITELY not anti-semitism, it's British irony. [Post edited 2 Mar 2022 18:03]
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Incoming “something about smears”, something else about “it’s out of context”, finished off with a false equivalence.
That is appalling. |  | | |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:03 - Mar 2 with 1422 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 18:54 - Mar 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Incoming “something about smears”, something else about “it’s out of context”, finished off with a false equivalence.
That is appalling. |
Well, the “usual crowd” is certainly here.
I stayed off this thread as it had the potential to be interesting (it was) and gordon’s thread yesterday got derailed.
Then you clowns just throw out your usual nonsense. And yes, smears.
I have no idea who these people are but, on the face of it, I’ll happily condemn a lot of their comments.
Keep fighting the “good” fight. |  |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:15 - Mar 2 with 1386 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:03 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Well, the “usual crowd” is certainly here.
I stayed off this thread as it had the potential to be interesting (it was) and gordon’s thread yesterday got derailed.
Then you clowns just throw out your usual nonsense. And yes, smears.
I have no idea who these people are but, on the face of it, I’ll happily condemn a lot of their comments.
Keep fighting the “good” fight. |
I have no idea who these people are"
You don't recall putting up Tony Greenstein as 'the right type of Jew' on numerous threads over the past five years? |  |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:22 - Mar 2 with 1379 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:15 - Mar 2 by GlasgowBlue |
I have no idea who these people are"
You don't recall putting up Tony Greenstein as 'the right type of Jew' on numerous threads over the past five years? |
If he said something I agreed with then yes. But I don’t remember that.
What’s your point? That I’ve now got to defend myself re: random people?
You of all people really don’t want to play that game given your political and posting history. 😂 | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:26 - Mar 2 with 1356 views | giant_stow |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:03 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Well, the “usual crowd” is certainly here.
I stayed off this thread as it had the potential to be interesting (it was) and gordon’s thread yesterday got derailed.
Then you clowns just throw out your usual nonsense. And yes, smears.
I have no idea who these people are but, on the face of it, I’ll happily condemn a lot of their comments.
Keep fighting the “good” fight. |
'I’ll happily condemn a lot of their comments.'
Baby steps but hey, congratulations | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:28 - Mar 2 with 1338 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:26 - Mar 2 by giant_stow |
'I’ll happily condemn a lot of their comments.'
Baby steps but hey, congratulations |
Yeah, imagine reaching your lofty standards. I can but dream. | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:35 - Mar 2 with 1327 views | BlueBadger |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 18:54 - Mar 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Incoming “something about smears”, something else about “it’s out of context”, finished off with a false equivalence.
That is appalling. |
Don't forget about some kind of claim that 'they've been the only person to call for *this good thing which is current Labour policy and has been for years*' | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:46 - Mar 2 with 1319 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
I see Kevin Courtney of the NEU is due to speak (in a personal capacity).
If he does, he should not remain in his position as joint leader of the NEU, in my opinion. |  |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 20:38 - Mar 2 with 1236 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 19:46 - Mar 2 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I see Kevin Courtney of the NEU is due to speak (in a personal capacity).
If he does, he should not remain in his position as joint leader of the NEU, in my opinion. |
?
The UK is becoming weirder and weirder. | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 20:44 - Mar 2 with 1216 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 20:38 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
?
The UK is becoming weirder and weirder. |
I guess it depends on the basic premise of what he is saying. But if it is based on the suggestion that NATO is the reason for the war and the UK has done anything other than try to end the conflict then I would say so. He is speaking due to being known for the post he holds even if he is not speaking in that capacity. It makes it no different from the Labour MPs who have been forced to withdraw from the event, in my opinion.
However, it has drawn an upvote from GB so perhaps I am wrong! | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 20:49 - Mar 2 with 1190 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 20:44 - Mar 2 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I guess it depends on the basic premise of what he is saying. But if it is based on the suggestion that NATO is the reason for the war and the UK has done anything other than try to end the conflict then I would say so. He is speaking due to being known for the post he holds even if he is not speaking in that capacity. It makes it no different from the Labour MPs who have been forced to withdraw from the event, in my opinion.
However, it has drawn an upvote from GB so perhaps I am wrong! |
No-one has said that NATO is the reason for the war. That’s just the bad-faith assertion that’s going around.
There has long been criticism of NATO raising tensions and there are now worries about escalation, but be in no doubt that Putin is the real reason for the war.
Courtney is certainly pushing a message that I’d like our educators to push from what I can see on the Twitter coverage. In fact, I’d challenge anyone to point out what anyone’s said that is wrong or shouldn’t be expressed as an opinion. | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 20:54 - Mar 2 with 1168 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 20:49 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
No-one has said that NATO is the reason for the war. That’s just the bad-faith assertion that’s going around.
There has long been criticism of NATO raising tensions and there are now worries about escalation, but be in no doubt that Putin is the real reason for the war.
Courtney is certainly pushing a message that I’d like our educators to push from what I can see on the Twitter coverage. In fact, I’d challenge anyone to point out what anyone’s said that is wrong or shouldn’t be expressed as an opinion. |
To be fair, I haven't seen Courtney's Tweets.
Why did the Labour Party MPs withdraw if what was going to be said did not go against what they warned over? | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:30 - Mar 2 with 1143 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 20:54 - Mar 2 by Nthsuffolkblue |
To be fair, I haven't seen Courtney's Tweets.
Why did the Labour Party MPs withdraw if what was going to be said did not go against what they warned over? |
Unfortunately, because we’re living in a narrative world (particularly in the UK) that says if you’re critical of our government and allies you support our enemies.
It’s just base political posturing and Starmer’s own tweets about it have entirely recycled that narrative. Meanwhile he’s equivocating on No Fly Zones which shows exactly why real opposition voices are needed.
And, on a side note, another iteration of why Starmer et al are part of the problem and not the solution. Which (and I shouldn’t have to say it but I do) doesn’t mean I think Boris and the Tories are better 😀 | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:37 - Mar 2 with 1122 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:30 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Unfortunately, because we’re living in a narrative world (particularly in the UK) that says if you’re critical of our government and allies you support our enemies.
It’s just base political posturing and Starmer’s own tweets about it have entirely recycled that narrative. Meanwhile he’s equivocating on No Fly Zones which shows exactly why real opposition voices are needed.
And, on a side note, another iteration of why Starmer et al are part of the problem and not the solution. Which (and I shouldn’t have to say it but I do) doesn’t mean I think Boris and the Tories are better 😀 |
I thought Labour’s and Starmers’ position on NFZ was really clear. They don’t support that approach (and probably rightly so). |  |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:37 - Mar 2 with 1121 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:30 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Unfortunately, because we’re living in a narrative world (particularly in the UK) that says if you’re critical of our government and allies you support our enemies.
It’s just base political posturing and Starmer’s own tweets about it have entirely recycled that narrative. Meanwhile he’s equivocating on No Fly Zones which shows exactly why real opposition voices are needed.
And, on a side note, another iteration of why Starmer et al are part of the problem and not the solution. Which (and I shouldn’t have to say it but I do) doesn’t mean I think Boris and the Tories are better 😀 |
That doesn't actually answer the question at all. | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:42 - Mar 2 with 1113 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:37 - Mar 2 by Swansea_Blue |
I thought Labour’s and Starmers’ position on NFZ was really clear. They don’t support that approach (and probably rightly so). |
Starmer said it was “not an option”, sounds reasonably unequivocal to me.
I’m sure we’ll get some kind of disingenuous take on it though. | | | |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:43 - Mar 2 with 1113 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:37 - Mar 2 by Swansea_Blue |
I thought Labour’s and Starmers’ position on NFZ was really clear. They don’t support that approach (and probably rightly so). |
He said he would take it up with the government when asked. Then the spokesman confirmed that it wasn’t something they wanted at all.
That’s the sort of posturing we really can do without. | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:45 - Mar 2 with 1104 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:37 - Mar 2 by Nthsuffolkblue |
That doesn't actually answer the question at all. |
Sorry! I missed out that he forced them to distance themselves from it under threat of losing the whip. | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:57 - Mar 2 with 1064 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:45 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Sorry! I missed out that he forced them to distance themselves from it under threat of losing the whip. |
The article says "any party member who draws a “false equivalence” between Nato and the actions of Russia in Ukraine".
Are you saying the article is wrong or that the Stop the war group is doing this (despite you stating they are not)? | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 22:20 - Mar 2 with 1042 views | BlueBadger |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 14:28 - Mar 2 by Guthrum |
Indeed, it's clear that the Ukrainian people, as things stood prior to this invasion, were inclining away from Russia and towards the West. More so since the 2014 annexation of Crimea, plus the breaking away of the Donbas rebel areas has significantly reduced the pro-Russian vote.
If, in that scenario, Estonia invokes the treaty, then NATO is bound to come to their assistance. But that still doesn't mean we'd counter-invade anywhere else, or nuke Moscow immediately. NATO is a defensive alliance, not looking for any excuse to open hostilities with their rivals.
Plus the disputed territory between Estonia and Russia is pretty much all occupied by the latter, being absorbed after 1945 and not given back in 1991. |
Chaps, can I just say, what a brilliant, informative and INFORMED discussion it is you've had here.
Guffers is always an MVP and Gordon has been a previously solid mid-table poster who's held his own well here. | |
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| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 23:03 - Mar 2 with 991 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well done for Starmer taking a strong stance on this on 21:57 - Mar 2 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The article says "any party member who draws a “false equivalence” between Nato and the actions of Russia in Ukraine".
Are you saying the article is wrong or that the Stop the war group is doing this (despite you stating they are not)? |
No they haven’t said that. But this line about a “false equivalence” comes from earlier when talking about STW.
It was a misrepresentation then and now. But especially post-invasion where it’s meant to suggest people are excusing Putin’s actions.
Literally a month after everyone was clutching their pearls over Johnson’s slur about Savile too. | |
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