| Russian troops on 09:29 - Mar 3 with 553 views | DinDjarin |
| Russian troops on 00:12 - Mar 3 by Kievthegreat |
Believe me, there are loads of clips on social media.
Thing is that News channels will not generally show dead bodies. Example:
CNN look over the scene of destruction after Russian vehicles were ambushed. They are there 24 hours after it actually happened. There is a video of the same place, walking almost the exact same path past the still smouldering wrecks, stepping over multiple charred corpses (I don't have the link and I sure as hell ain't going to go searching for it). Even this clip is shortened. It ends with him pointing behind the white truck. What he goes on to say is that there is still a dead body where he's pointing before he ushers the cameraman back so goes out of shot again. |
I avoid mainstream media for news and even in the telegram groups i am in which are pretty raw there is a distinct lack of any dead military personnel.
Its usually quite the opposite from any other conflict as usually peoples mobile phones are used to take the vids so no censorship.
Most of the footage I have seen on any mainstream media I have usually already seen as is the same footage as above which they just uplift it for their own use. |  | |  |
| Russian troops on 09:38 - Mar 3 with 526 views | Guthrum |
| Russian troops on 09:11 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
I think it was also a misreading of the wikipedia page. I’d seen the figure of c. 5,700 Russian troops killed but that’s the total over 8 years of fighting in the Eastern regions.
The most recent numbers from the invasion hadn’t been added or could even be reasonably verified it seems. |
None of these figures are verifiable and might never be. All official numbers will be considerable over- or under-estimates, depending upon which side you ask.
Not necessarily even deliberate propaganda. In the confusion and stress of combat, troops often believe they have achieved more than is actually the case and multiple claims (all counted separately) for the same destroyed vehicle or aircraft are common. Those centrally compiling the data can be guilty of wishful thinking. |  |
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| Russian troops on 09:49 - Mar 3 with 513 views | Churchman |
| Russian troops on 09:19 - Mar 3 by Guthrum |
"Cannon Fodder" is actually a very bad strategy. Objectives are not taken, massive casualties suffered and few inflicted upon the enemy. Plus that mass of troops has to be fed, transported and supplied.
Instead, the most skilled troops should be deployed to achieve a swift victory, inflicting maximum damage at minimum cost. Which is what the Russians tried to do on day one with the airborne assault on Hostomel airfield, just outside Kyiv.
As I've said before, the Russian military is vast, but with only a relatively small core of high quality units (Spetsnaz, airborne, a couple of divisions worth of armour and naval infantry). The vast bulk consists of brutalised teenage conscripts in elderly tanks.
Worth bearing in mind that the Russian annual military budget is no larger than that of the UK, a quarter of China's and only 10% that of the USA. That translates into technology, which is of more use in modern warfare than sheer numbers. Also, in the decade after the collapse of the USSR, the military was allowed to run down completely, to quite a shambolic state of disrepair and poor morale. So it was a low base to start from when Putin came to power 20 years ago. A decent chunk of that budget will have had to go into keeping at least some of their nuclear forces viable (extraordinarily expensive) and rebuilding the air force, thus depriving the land army of funds. |
It’s also trying to rebuild its navy, which fell into serious disrepair. It’s army looks to be extraordinarily large for the size of its annual budget. They appear to make relatively little £ go a long way.
However, I am reminded of the decisions made before WW2. U.K. and US made opted for a mechanised war while the Russians and Germans went for a more man based, WW1 style approach (according to James Holland). Evidence? For example, German army was largely horse drawn throughout the war. U.K. invested pre WW2 particularly in upgrading its navy, motorising its small army, stuff like radar (chain home system) and aviation.
Qualitative over quantitative. I am too far away from military stuff now, but I get the impression that’s still dominant with Russian military despite some excellent kit such as the Su35. |  | | |
| Russian troops on 09:51 - Mar 3 with 509 views | Guthrum |
| Russian troops on 09:17 - Mar 3 by Churchman |
Poor bloke. He will probably finish in a gulag or Labour camp, if he’s lucky.
According to wiki, after WW2 Soviet prisoners that survived starvation and murder by the Germans (over 3.3 million were worked or starved to death) were welcomed back into ‘filtration camps’ by the NKVD.
20% of POWs were freed and 43% of POWs were re-drafted, 22% of POWs were sent to labor battalions, and 15% of the POWs (226,127 out of 1,539,475 total) were transferred to the Gulag.
While Putin may take a modern, 21c liberal view with a pension, trauma counselling etc, that’s about as likely as Boris Johnson dealing with the river of dirty money running through laundromat London. |
The difference is the ideological dimension in WWII. Not just whether a man had fought bravely, but is they were sufficiently communist (and dedicated to Stalin).
Those who had been PoWs were suspect which, given that as many as 100,000 signed up to fight for Germany in the Russian Liberation Army (a lot of them, to be fair, just to get out of the camps where they were being starved and mistreated) was perhaps not entirely unjustified. | |
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| Russian troops on 09:53 - Mar 3 with 506 views | Darth_Koont |
| Russian troops on 09:38 - Mar 3 by Guthrum |
None of these figures are verifiable and might never be. All official numbers will be considerable over- or under-estimates, depending upon which side you ask.
Not necessarily even deliberate propaganda. In the confusion and stress of combat, troops often believe they have achieved more than is actually the case and multiple claims (all counted separately) for the same destroyed vehicle or aircraft are common. Those centrally compiling the data can be guilty of wishful thinking. |
Indeed. It’ll be a range eventually and only when more independent experts can start unpicking the claims.
The number don’t change the underlying picture of an illegal war and unwarranted death. It’s also difficult to know what relatively heavy or light losses will mean to the likelihood of a ceasefire. The Clothes Wringer examples from yesterday were very illuminating on how the dead and wounded can accelerate events instead of slowing things down. |  |
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| Russian troops on 10:02 - Mar 3 with 483 views | Guthrum |
| Russian troops on 09:49 - Mar 3 by Churchman |
It’s also trying to rebuild its navy, which fell into serious disrepair. It’s army looks to be extraordinarily large for the size of its annual budget. They appear to make relatively little £ go a long way.
However, I am reminded of the decisions made before WW2. U.K. and US made opted for a mechanised war while the Russians and Germans went for a more man based, WW1 style approach (according to James Holland). Evidence? For example, German army was largely horse drawn throughout the war. U.K. invested pre WW2 particularly in upgrading its navy, motorising its small army, stuff like radar (chain home system) and aviation.
Qualitative over quantitative. I am too far away from military stuff now, but I get the impression that’s still dominant with Russian military despite some excellent kit such as the Su35. |
However the Russians only have 100 Su35 in service (the RAF has that many Typhoons), fewer than 500 T-90s and so on. Conscripts, on the other hand, are cheap, come in bulk and ensure that a large portion of the (male) population has at least some military training.
The Germans were rather forced into that position due to their very limited and vulnerable sources of oil. | |
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| Russian troops on 10:12 - Mar 3 with 469 views | Guthrum |
| Russian troops on 09:53 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. It’ll be a range eventually and only when more independent experts can start unpicking the claims.
The number don’t change the underlying picture of an illegal war and unwarranted death. It’s also difficult to know what relatively heavy or light losses will mean to the likelihood of a ceasefire. The Clothes Wringer examples from yesterday were very illuminating on how the dead and wounded can accelerate events instead of slowing things down. |
On the other hand, the stream of body bags coming back from Afghanistan was one of the things which contributed to the fall of the Soviet Union by undermining public morale. Especially as the losses appeared to be in an endless, unwinnable foreign adventure.
In 1914, the scenario was of fighting against an illegitimate German invasion, a cause which could be perceived as "just" by the public and those killed ascribed heroic status. Less so when they are unhappy conscripts who have been sent underprepared into an unprovoked attack upon another country. | |
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| Russian troops on 10:20 - Mar 3 with 442 views | Darth_Koont |
| Russian troops on 10:12 - Mar 3 by Guthrum |
On the other hand, the stream of body bags coming back from Afghanistan was one of the things which contributed to the fall of the Soviet Union by undermining public morale. Especially as the losses appeared to be in an endless, unwinnable foreign adventure.
In 1914, the scenario was of fighting against an illegitimate German invasion, a cause which could be perceived as "just" by the public and those killed ascribed heroic status. Less so when they are unhappy conscripts who have been sent underprepared into an unprovoked attack upon another country. |
Indeed. I’m going on the assumption that this won’t turn into a long, drawn-out war like Afghanistan and mainly because the appetite for it among the ordinary Russians already seems questionable from the start.
But who knows? I also thought Putin would stop short of an all-out invasion so maybe occupation and years of ongoing fighting with insurgents is already factored in. | |
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| Russian troops on 10:24 - Mar 3 with 434 views | WD19 |
| Russian troops on 10:12 - Mar 3 by Guthrum |
On the other hand, the stream of body bags coming back from Afghanistan was one of the things which contributed to the fall of the Soviet Union by undermining public morale. Especially as the losses appeared to be in an endless, unwinnable foreign adventure.
In 1914, the scenario was of fighting against an illegitimate German invasion, a cause which could be perceived as "just" by the public and those killed ascribed heroic status. Less so when they are unhappy conscripts who have been sent underprepared into an unprovoked attack upon another country. |
They will have learnt from that I am sure. Many of the fallen Russian serviceman will simply 'disappear' with a slow release narrative that they were taken prisoner by the 'Nationalists' and then murdered as part of an ethnic genocide/war crime. |  | | |
| Russian troops on 10:30 - Mar 3 with 423 views | Guthrum |
| Russian troops on 10:20 - Mar 3 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. I’m going on the assumption that this won’t turn into a long, drawn-out war like Afghanistan and mainly because the appetite for it among the ordinary Russians already seems questionable from the start.
But who knows? I also thought Putin would stop short of an all-out invasion so maybe occupation and years of ongoing fighting with insurgents is already factored in. |
I'm not sure he has factored that in. Seems to have counted upon a quick neutralisation of the Ukrainian military and government, followed by big gains when they sued for peace.
Problem is, like catching a dangerous animal, once you have hold, don't let go because they'll turn around and bite you. | |
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| Russian troops on 10:34 - Mar 3 with 420 views | Guthrum |
| Russian troops on 10:24 - Mar 3 by WD19 |
They will have learnt from that I am sure. Many of the fallen Russian serviceman will simply 'disappear' with a slow release narrative that they were taken prisoner by the 'Nationalists' and then murdered as part of an ethnic genocide/war crime. |
That's going to be difficult to manage with the soldiers who do come back knowing the truth, perhaps on an individual level (i.e. they saw their comrades killed and can tell the parents). That kind of thing is hugely damaging to trust at a grass-roots level. | |
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