| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? 09:56 - Mar 11 with 1889 views | NthQldITFC |
I hope it is fair to assume that we will have a General Election before the end of January 2025, and that there will be no move to abolish the five year term or to bring in martial law? Could then, the upcoming demise of the Tories bring to the country (and to us all as individuals) a realisation that the self-centred, wealth- and consumption-obsessed way of life is not only terminally stupid in environmental terms, but also leaves personal satisfaction and happiness permanently 'just over the horizon'? Can we possibly hope for a positive and progressive backlash?
We live in a country of ever-declining decency and degraded nature which feels like it is very close to breaking point on both the social and environmental fronts. Our rivers are poisoned, our ancient woodlands are grubbed up in the name of progress, greenfield sites are bulldozed for investment properties and our pollinators and birds are disappearing at a terrifying rate. Families are starving and freezing whilst corporations pick the pockets of the most unfortunate, and we who may be more fortunate happily take our dividends and watch our investment portfolios accrue.
We need to be big enough to put aside petty materialistic envy and utilise the shared shame of what we are as a country as a springboard to propel us into a fair, sustainable(-ish) future where progress is a saved wetland and its species or a fed family, and growth is a new deciduous not-for-profit woodland planted solely to mop up our past excesses. We need to be prepared to make real personal sacrifices in our expectations of consumerism, air travel and reliance on 'the system' to dispose of our consciences along with our plastic tat.
We've been on the downward curve for a very long time, but we have accelerated downwards horrifically this century, and particularly in the last ten years or so. We need to take this ideal opportunity of the next couple of years to challenge ourselves as to what we want to take from the world now, and what we want to leave behind for our children and for the rest of nature. If enough of us as individuals respond to that self-challenging and openly and consistently act in a humble and minimalist and selfless and caring way, we might create an electorate capable of forcing this attitude upwards into government. |  |
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 12:31 - Mar 11 with 522 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:24 - Mar 11 by Ryorry |
Superb stuff, you're becoming one of my fav posters.
I think that time itself may achieve this.
1. Because all the school-kids & young people that I know are brilliant, far less selfish & more globally aware generation than my own
2. Because the largest Tory-voting age-group, ie senior cits, are literally dying out.
3. Because, sadly,as it becomes increasingly clear from wildfires, floods, famines etc. (incl. quite likely future pandemics) that our poor planet will not sustain life for their kids, grandkids or greats, the next generation all over the world will be *forced* to fundamentally change how humans do stuff. |
“Because, sadly,as it becomes increasingly clear from wildfires, floods, famines etc. (incl. quite likely future pandemics) that our poor planet will not sustain life for their kids, grandkids or greats, the next generation all over the world will be *forced* to fundamentally change how humans do stuff.”
The thing that will REALLY kick politicians into action (albeit probably too late) is that some of these events are rapidly becoming uninsurable due to increasing frequency and severity. In which case the government (taxpayer) will end up picking up the bill, and they/we won’t want to be doing that. |  | | |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 12:36 - Mar 11 with 518 views | NthQldITFC |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:07 - Mar 11 by Churchman |
We have been on a downward curve from a long time. Greed, selfishness, lining pockets at the expense of others if necessary, look after no 1 are prime motivation for many in this country. It actually pre-dates Thatcher but she legitimised it.
This country is a filthy tip. The rivers and coasts fast becoming sewers and few people care. For example, just travel down the A12 and see what so many people tip out of their windows on the verges and hard shoulders. Somebody else’s problem. I’m ok. Who cares. If challenged, F off or a slap in the mouth is the default setting.
Will this change? One day, but probably not in my lifetime. True change takes generations in my view.
So where do we start? At the top. The last 13 years in particular have been a horrendous time of bogus ideology, greed and epic stupidity all in the laudable (to them) cause of filling their own boots. Everybody else? Make your own arrangements. If you are disadvantaged, s0d off and work harder - and be grateful.
The Labour Party are no paragons of virtue, as Blair and co amply proved, but the basic stance, the aims and objectives of most of them are an improvement on ‘I don’t mind how much sewage fills the rivers provided I get a comfy seat on the board of the water company making a big fat profit’. A made up example but you get the drift.
The country needs a reset on just about everything from education, through to our relationships with our neighbours. That includes the constitution which looks seriously outmoded.
Can it be done? Of course. If you look at what was done after the war in terms of rebuilding the country and the welfare state creation etc it shows you anything is possible. The tories will tell you that small state, cuts and more cuts are the way forward. Wrong. Look at what South Korea have managed to do. Look at what Germany did post 1945. Ok, there was the Marshall Plan - but at least they had a plan to rebuild and re-educate a whole country and these things tells me anything is do-able.
Are Starmer and co capable and strong enough to create real change? I hope so and while I have severe doubts, they deserve the chance. If nothing else, can they be any worse than the awful self serving shower currently stinking the place out at everyones expense? |
I completely agree with your eloquent post (as usual), and I too have grave misgivings about the probable next Labour government, although I would crawl naked over hot coals and promise never to think of Kylie again to see them oust the scum who rule at present.
I have tended to use the metaphors 'at the top' and 'from the bottom' quite a bit, but I feel that that privileged structure might be more open to influence than we think as we get closer to our (hopeful) nadir. Perhaps the metaphorical tree exists on a looped plane and we can reach down from the bottom and box the ears of those at the top until they do the right and the sane thing? | |
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 12:39 - Mar 11 with 507 views | NthQldITFC |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:07 - Mar 11 by chicoazul |
Let’s have an example.
You’re the leader of the Labour Party and I’m the leader of the Liberals. We have the opportunity to form a coalition government. You want me and my MPs to support your policy on for eg child poverty which involves you giving free hot school meals twice a day to all children. I say yes if we can reinstate academic selection at 11 and build/reform 400 new grammar schools as I and my party feel this is one of the best solutions to child poverty and social mobility. Do you agree? |
Yes, I think I probably can, so long as we can ensure that funding to all primary schools is uniformly distributed. Something like that. | |
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 12:54 - Mar 11 with 479 views | DJR |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:07 - Mar 11 by chicoazul |
Let’s have an example.
You’re the leader of the Labour Party and I’m the leader of the Liberals. We have the opportunity to form a coalition government. You want me and my MPs to support your policy on for eg child poverty which involves you giving free hot school meals twice a day to all children. I say yes if we can reinstate academic selection at 11 and build/reform 400 new grammar schools as I and my party feel this is one of the best solutions to child poverty and social mobility. Do you agree? |
Living in an area where there are grammar schools (and having two children who went to one) this is not the answer to inequality.
What happens is that middle class kids are tutored up to the hilt for the exams, whereas in state primary schools (but not independent schools), there is no practice for the exams which do require a lot of prior practice.
The result is that bright children from non-middle class families end up failing the 11-plus to be replaced by many middle class kids who are less bright or no brighter. And in the schools my children went to around half the children were from the independent sector, their parents being able to ensure their children got a very decent secondary education, with none of the costs that staying in the independent sector would have entailed.
The situation was different in Ipswich when I took the 11 plus in 1971, and lots of children from humble backgrounds passed. [Post edited 11 Mar 2023 13:02]
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 13:01 - Mar 11 with 469 views | Ryorry |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 12:31 - Mar 11 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“Because, sadly,as it becomes increasingly clear from wildfires, floods, famines etc. (incl. quite likely future pandemics) that our poor planet will not sustain life for their kids, grandkids or greats, the next generation all over the world will be *forced* to fundamentally change how humans do stuff.”
The thing that will REALLY kick politicians into action (albeit probably too late) is that some of these events are rapidly becoming uninsurable due to increasing frequency and severity. In which case the government (taxpayer) will end up picking up the bill, and they/we won’t want to be doing that. |
Not to mention millions more migrants having to flee their homelands because of rising sea levels ...
Droughts also likely to be an increasingly serious issue - in fact Mr Hunt MP should note that East Anglia is very vulnerable in this respect & was mentioned on R4's farming prog. this morning as suffering from a worrying absence of rainfall last month, leading to farmers having to cut back on crops which require irrigation - one said he'd had to scale back from approx 1100 to 800 acres for things like spuds. |  |
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 13:14 - Mar 11 with 453 views | DJR |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:18 - Mar 11 by Darth_Koont |
I wouldn’t look too closely at who the new breed of Labour politician is these days – they’re right-wingers (though certainly not as extreme as many of the Tories) who also want to please donors and corporate backers and make money out of it.
They won’t challenge or change anything that goes against those interests or their own self-interests. Unless the British electorate pulls them that way – but in a two-horse race they don’t even need to do that. |
I always think that Wes Streeting sums this up this type of person best.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/nus-president-wes-streeting-
Indeed, from what I have been told by someone in the know many Blairites were content with Cameron and Johnson (in London mayor mode) in office because they saw them as fellow liberals. This may well explain their constant undermining of Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.
But still, Labour are the only show in town. [Post edited 11 Mar 2023 16:00]
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 13:19 - Mar 11 with 446 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:34 - Mar 11 by chicoazul |
Young people slowly become senior citizens. |
I've never understood why people become more right wing as they get older (if it's actually true). For me, it's completely the opposite. The more I learn and experience in life, it makes me more and more left-wing.
I just wonder how you can go through life and not become increasingly angry about social injustice and environmental destruction. |  | | |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 13:35 - Mar 11 with 426 views | DJR |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 10:56 - Mar 11 by DJR |
And on the immorality of Braverman's proposals, Labour have very much kept their head down, instead attacking the unworkability of the proposals, and in Yvette Cooper's case (as well as a few other Labour MPs I have heard) saying that Lineker was wrong to say what he did.
This, to me, shows the timidity of Labour, something I believe they will be hamstrung by when in Government because if they don't make the case for progressive policies when in opposition, and with such a lead in the polls, the right wing press will realise they have the upper hand and severely limit what Labour can do. [Post edited 11 Mar 2023 10:58]
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Further shameful action from Labour, this time from Bridget Phillipson who said Lineker's words were “somewhat ill-advised”.
After all, if George Osborne can say that the Leave UK Breaking Point poster was like 1930s fascist propaganda, why can't Gary Linker say effectively the same about the following words in the Commons from Braverman.
"There are 100 million people around the world who could qualify for protection under our current laws. Let’s be clear. They are coming here."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poster-nigel-farage | | | |
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 14:24 - Mar 11 with 392 views | Darth_Koont |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 13:19 - Mar 11 by Clapham_Junction |
I've never understood why people become more right wing as they get older (if it's actually true). For me, it's completely the opposite. The more I learn and experience in life, it makes me more and more left-wing.
I just wonder how you can go through life and not become increasingly angry about social injustice and environmental destruction. |
I think you said it yourself. You’re still learning and taking on new experiences.
Generally, the more people learn the more left they become. Just as societies move left the more educated they become.
But there are lots of people who are proud to have stopped learning about anything. Certainly the right-wing audience in the UK is breathtakingly ignorant and that’s almost the prerequisite for their politics and rhetoric – a load of narrative, anecdotal bobbins that runs away from empirical evidence or expert knowledge and appeals to the “common sense” that’s left.
On a personal note, I think the more I learn and experience around the UK and in Europe is that life is better for all when that is a shared goal in society – rather than dangling the carrot that we’ve all got more to gain by looking after ourselves. That dangerous appeal to self-interest (or even worse stoking the fear of things being taken away from people) in the face of the actual evidence needs to be called out a lot more often. It’s a narrative that serves the people pushing it or embracing it, but cannot serve society as a whole. Which the UK is currently a world-leader at proving. |  |
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 14:30 - Mar 11 with 385 views | Guthrum |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:07 - Mar 11 by chicoazul |
Let’s have an example.
You’re the leader of the Labour Party and I’m the leader of the Liberals. We have the opportunity to form a coalition government. You want me and my MPs to support your policy on for eg child poverty which involves you giving free hot school meals twice a day to all children. I say yes if we can reinstate academic selection at 11 and build/reform 400 new grammar schools as I and my party feel this is one of the best solutions to child poverty and social mobility. Do you agree? |
I'd offer them electoral reform instead (with proper options and support this time), which the LibDems would jump at and is likely to hurt the Conservatives more than Labour. |  |
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| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 08:39 - Mar 12 with 323 views | DJR |
| Will we see an inflexion point in the shared fortunes of this country? on 11:18 - Mar 11 by Darth_Koont |
I wouldn’t look too closely at who the new breed of Labour politician is these days – they’re right-wingers (though certainly not as extreme as many of the Tories) who also want to please donors and corporate backers and make money out of it.
They won’t challenge or change anything that goes against those interests or their own self-interests. Unless the British electorate pulls them that way – but in a two-horse race they don’t even need to do that. |
Evidence of the rightward drift on economic matters of New Labour (and by corollary Labour under Starmer) was a Radio 4 programme a couple of years after Brexit about EU enlargement in 2004, where Labour chose not to impose limitations on workers arriving from the new EU countries, when it could have done so.
The programme featured a couple of ministers at the time (David Blunkett and someone I can't now remember), and whilst the programme primarily focused on the consequences of the policy and the fact that the estimates of the number who would arrive were very wrong, an extraordinary admission from supposedly left leaning ministers emerged. This was that part of the motivation for allowing, say, the Poles to arrive was that it would give the UK a competitive advantage because it would help to drive down wages.
I would say that is about as neoliberal as you could get, but rather surprisingly the admission didn't get any publicity in the media. And I have never heard this justification mentioned before or since. [Post edited 12 Mar 2023 8:42]
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