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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257375 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

Poll: Which team thread should I participate in?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Nov 12 with 3747 viewsDJR

Al-Shifa hospital head of surgery: 'I am afraid that all of the babies will lose their lives'
Ruth Michaelson

(Warning: this post contains distressing images)

Inside a darkened operating theatre in Gaza’s largest hospital complex, staff swaddled dozens of tiny premature babies eight to a bed, in a desperate effort to keep the infants warm – and alive.

With no oxygen supplies or power for incubators, nurses attempted to provide what little care they could for 39 babies who were transferred from the neonatal unit in another part of the sprawling complex following a strike on Dar al-Shifa’s intensive care unit.

Just getting them to the theatre was a potentially deadly mission after staff reported strikes on anyone moving inside the hospital compound.

“The neonatal unit is not connected to the main surgical units within the al-Shifa medical complex; it was dangerous to go from the main building to get the babies,” said doctor Marwan Abu Sada, head of surgery at al-Shifa, once considered the heart of Gaza’s healthcare system, now operating under fire.

“We called the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Israelis just to ensure the passage of the babies from the neonatal ICU to the surgical area.”

36 infants managed to survive the transfer, but their conditions worsened over the weekend. “We lost the life of one baby today, yesterday we lost two and I am afraid that all of the babies will lose their lives,” said Abu Sada.

Al-Shifa previously had the largest neonatal unit in Gaza and nowhere else could care for the infants, he said, making evacuation impossible. “We no longer have any oxygen supplies, or even fuel to run a generator,” he said.

Hospitals across Gaza City are in a struggle for survival, with only one facility able to receive hundreds of wounded people arriving daily. Staff in Dar al-Shifa, the largest medical facility in the enclave, were working under bombardment and without power, clean water, or food.

“Shifa is besieged: No one can get out, and no one can enter,” said Abu Sada. “It is dangerous for us, even the medical staff, to look out the window. We are so afraid of the shooting,” he said.

Amid fears of sniper fire, hospital staff have moved all 600 remaining patients away from the windows and into corridors deeper inside the complex.

WARNING re photos below

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/fa6b8c2dc644402e6aa8430fe88744eab8ae175b/0_0_2678

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/618a606d6b8a6ac735226475208593fa6df32e6f/0_0_2562
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Are any Palestinian lives safe ? on 21:23 - Nov 12 with 3647 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Nov 12 by DJR

Al-Shifa hospital head of surgery: 'I am afraid that all of the babies will lose their lives'
Ruth Michaelson

(Warning: this post contains distressing images)

Inside a darkened operating theatre in Gaza’s largest hospital complex, staff swaddled dozens of tiny premature babies eight to a bed, in a desperate effort to keep the infants warm – and alive.

With no oxygen supplies or power for incubators, nurses attempted to provide what little care they could for 39 babies who were transferred from the neonatal unit in another part of the sprawling complex following a strike on Dar al-Shifa’s intensive care unit.

Just getting them to the theatre was a potentially deadly mission after staff reported strikes on anyone moving inside the hospital compound.

“The neonatal unit is not connected to the main surgical units within the al-Shifa medical complex; it was dangerous to go from the main building to get the babies,” said doctor Marwan Abu Sada, head of surgery at al-Shifa, once considered the heart of Gaza’s healthcare system, now operating under fire.

“We called the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Israelis just to ensure the passage of the babies from the neonatal ICU to the surgical area.”

36 infants managed to survive the transfer, but their conditions worsened over the weekend. “We lost the life of one baby today, yesterday we lost two and I am afraid that all of the babies will lose their lives,” said Abu Sada.

Al-Shifa previously had the largest neonatal unit in Gaza and nowhere else could care for the infants, he said, making evacuation impossible. “We no longer have any oxygen supplies, or even fuel to run a generator,” he said.

Hospitals across Gaza City are in a struggle for survival, with only one facility able to receive hundreds of wounded people arriving daily. Staff in Dar al-Shifa, the largest medical facility in the enclave, were working under bombardment and without power, clean water, or food.

“Shifa is besieged: No one can get out, and no one can enter,” said Abu Sada. “It is dangerous for us, even the medical staff, to look out the window. We are so afraid of the shooting,” he said.

Amid fears of sniper fire, hospital staff have moved all 600 remaining patients away from the windows and into corridors deeper inside the complex.

WARNING re photos below

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/fa6b8c2dc644402e6aa8430fe88744eab8ae175b/0_0_2678

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/618a606d6b8a6ac735226475208593fa6df32e6f/0_0_2562


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/12/israel-gaza-war-live-israeli- @21:31

'Palestinian Minister of Health Mai al-Kaila says Israeli forces “are not evacuating people from hospitals; instead they are forcibly evicting the wounded onto the streets, leaving them to face inevitable death”.'

I know these things happen when war is waged by the unprincipled but it seems below the lowest ebb at the moment.

Edit: Thread title changed and this from further down the page (21:00):

'The International Committee of the Red Cross says the conditions under which civilians are evacuating in the Gaza Strip are “precarious and unsafe”.

“Men, women, and children, waving white flags, walk for dozens of kilometres past dead bodies lying on the streets and without necessities like food and water,” the organisation said in a statement.'
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:00]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:27 - Nov 12 with 3634 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Nov 12 by DJR

Al-Shifa hospital head of surgery: 'I am afraid that all of the babies will lose their lives'
Ruth Michaelson

(Warning: this post contains distressing images)

Inside a darkened operating theatre in Gaza’s largest hospital complex, staff swaddled dozens of tiny premature babies eight to a bed, in a desperate effort to keep the infants warm – and alive.

With no oxygen supplies or power for incubators, nurses attempted to provide what little care they could for 39 babies who were transferred from the neonatal unit in another part of the sprawling complex following a strike on Dar al-Shifa’s intensive care unit.

Just getting them to the theatre was a potentially deadly mission after staff reported strikes on anyone moving inside the hospital compound.

“The neonatal unit is not connected to the main surgical units within the al-Shifa medical complex; it was dangerous to go from the main building to get the babies,” said doctor Marwan Abu Sada, head of surgery at al-Shifa, once considered the heart of Gaza’s healthcare system, now operating under fire.

“We called the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Israelis just to ensure the passage of the babies from the neonatal ICU to the surgical area.”

36 infants managed to survive the transfer, but their conditions worsened over the weekend. “We lost the life of one baby today, yesterday we lost two and I am afraid that all of the babies will lose their lives,” said Abu Sada.

Al-Shifa previously had the largest neonatal unit in Gaza and nowhere else could care for the infants, he said, making evacuation impossible. “We no longer have any oxygen supplies, or even fuel to run a generator,” he said.

Hospitals across Gaza City are in a struggle for survival, with only one facility able to receive hundreds of wounded people arriving daily. Staff in Dar al-Shifa, the largest medical facility in the enclave, were working under bombardment and without power, clean water, or food.

“Shifa is besieged: No one can get out, and no one can enter,” said Abu Sada. “It is dangerous for us, even the medical staff, to look out the window. We are so afraid of the shooting,” he said.

Amid fears of sniper fire, hospital staff have moved all 600 remaining patients away from the windows and into corridors deeper inside the complex.

WARNING re photos below

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/fa6b8c2dc644402e6aa8430fe88744eab8ae175b/0_0_2678

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/618a606d6b8a6ac735226475208593fa6df32e6f/0_0_2562


Looks like the situation has changed. Not putting this up for balance. Just hope it's true.

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/we-are-evacuating-babies-patients-and-staff-fr


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A memory from the Jasmine Revolution was stirred by this. on 21:31 - Nov 12 with 3638 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Nov 12 by DJR

Al-Shifa hospital head of surgery: 'I am afraid that all of the babies will lose their lives'
Ruth Michaelson

(Warning: this post contains distressing images)

Inside a darkened operating theatre in Gaza’s largest hospital complex, staff swaddled dozens of tiny premature babies eight to a bed, in a desperate effort to keep the infants warm – and alive.

With no oxygen supplies or power for incubators, nurses attempted to provide what little care they could for 39 babies who were transferred from the neonatal unit in another part of the sprawling complex following a strike on Dar al-Shifa’s intensive care unit.

Just getting them to the theatre was a potentially deadly mission after staff reported strikes on anyone moving inside the hospital compound.

“The neonatal unit is not connected to the main surgical units within the al-Shifa medical complex; it was dangerous to go from the main building to get the babies,” said doctor Marwan Abu Sada, head of surgery at al-Shifa, once considered the heart of Gaza’s healthcare system, now operating under fire.

“We called the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Israelis just to ensure the passage of the babies from the neonatal ICU to the surgical area.”

36 infants managed to survive the transfer, but their conditions worsened over the weekend. “We lost the life of one baby today, yesterday we lost two and I am afraid that all of the babies will lose their lives,” said Abu Sada.

Al-Shifa previously had the largest neonatal unit in Gaza and nowhere else could care for the infants, he said, making evacuation impossible. “We no longer have any oxygen supplies, or even fuel to run a generator,” he said.

Hospitals across Gaza City are in a struggle for survival, with only one facility able to receive hundreds of wounded people arriving daily. Staff in Dar al-Shifa, the largest medical facility in the enclave, were working under bombardment and without power, clean water, or food.

“Shifa is besieged: No one can get out, and no one can enter,” said Abu Sada. “It is dangerous for us, even the medical staff, to look out the window. We are so afraid of the shooting,” he said.

Amid fears of sniper fire, hospital staff have moved all 600 remaining patients away from the windows and into corridors deeper inside the complex.

WARNING re photos below

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/fa6b8c2dc644402e6aa8430fe88744eab8ae175b/0_0_2678

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/618a606d6b8a6ac735226475208593fa6df32e6f/0_0_2562


Having been close to (close enough to hear it even with my damaged hearing) sniper fire from rooftops that intended to (and in one instance actually did) kill civilians I can only read these reports with total disgust:

'Israeli snipers continue to fire at anyone near the al-Shifa Hospital, pinning thousands still trapped inside the besieged facility down without electricity, water, or food.

“They are outside, not far from the gates,” said Ahmed al-Boursh, a Gaza resident sheltering there, of Israeli troops.

The hospital’s last generator ran out of fuel Saturday, leading to the deaths of at least three premature babies and four other patients, according to the health ministry. It said another 36 babies in need of incubators are at risk of dying.'

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/12/israel-gaza-war-live-israeli- @21:10

Edit: thread title changed, it lets you know where I heard sniper fire.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:09]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:20 - Nov 13 with 3575 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:27 - Nov 12 by GlasgowBlue

Looks like the situation has changed. Not putting this up for balance. Just hope it's true.

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/we-are-evacuating-babies-patients-and-staff-fr



This is what the Guardian is reporting about the fuel.

"A Health Ministry spokesperson, Ashraf al-Qidra, told Al Jazeera the fuel would not be enough to operate the generator an hour. “This is a mockery towards the patients and children,” Al-Qidra said."

This follows on from an IDF spokesman on Saturday saying the babies formerly on incubators would be transferred to another hospital on Sunday but nothing to date appears to have been done given this, also from the Guardian.

"Health officials and people trapped inside Gaza’s largest hospital rejected Israel’s claims that it was helping babies and others evacuate Sunday, the Associated Press reports,"

As it is 20 out of 36 hospitals are no longer working, the last thing a territory with so many sick and injured people needs, so whatever happens from now on, it is really too late to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe. And this all at a time when the health authority in Gaza is no longer able to produce casualty figures, and the focus, especially in this country and on TWTD, has, as Sunak and Braverman intended, moved on to things like the march, rather than what the march was trying to highlight.

Of course, if this were Russia doing the attacking, one would expect no better. But to use the words of the IHRA definition, I am only requiring of Israel a behaviour expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. And the fact that other Western nations have on occasions fallen below such standards, does not detract from that because two wrongs don't make a right.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 7:33]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:28 - Nov 13 with 3559 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:20 - Nov 13 by DJR

This is what the Guardian is reporting about the fuel.

"A Health Ministry spokesperson, Ashraf al-Qidra, told Al Jazeera the fuel would not be enough to operate the generator an hour. “This is a mockery towards the patients and children,” Al-Qidra said."

This follows on from an IDF spokesman on Saturday saying the babies formerly on incubators would be transferred to another hospital on Sunday but nothing to date appears to have been done given this, also from the Guardian.

"Health officials and people trapped inside Gaza’s largest hospital rejected Israel’s claims that it was helping babies and others evacuate Sunday, the Associated Press reports,"

As it is 20 out of 36 hospitals are no longer working, the last thing a territory with so many sick and injured people needs, so whatever happens from now on, it is really too late to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe. And this all at a time when the health authority in Gaza is no longer able to produce casualty figures, and the focus, especially in this country and on TWTD, has, as Sunak and Braverman intended, moved on to things like the march, rather than what the march was trying to highlight.

Of course, if this were Russia doing the attacking, one would expect no better. But to use the words of the IHRA definition, I am only requiring of Israel a behaviour expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. And the fact that other Western nations have on occasions fallen below such standards, does not detract from that because two wrongs don't make a right.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 7:33]


Well said.

We’ve seen 4,500 children killed so far in the bombings, but I fear that the toll will be much, much higher if disease and illness starts sweeping through Gaza. With hundreds of thousands of babies, small children, the elderly and the already sick most at risk.

Totally unacceptable and criminal. Ceasefire now!

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:51 - Nov 13 with 3530 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:48 - Nov 12 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Indeed. Hamas can’t be destroyed, not militarily anyway. The ones that haven’t legged it will be replaced by thousands more volunteers. At the end of this we’ll just be left with an uninhabitable wasteland and thousands of dead civilians.

A long term peace plan is the only way.


“Biden also affirmed his vision for a future Palestinian state "where Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side with equal measures of stability and dignity," the White House said, adding that Hamas had long been an impediment to that.”

Good to hear the US talk of a longer term solution, though it could remain a pipe dream if Trump gets elected next year.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-qatari-emir-discuss-gaza-agree-a

Only 4 of 200 hostages have been released to date. Arab leaders should be calling for this, Isreal will find it hard to sell as ceasefire to their population without bringing them home.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:02 - Nov 13 with 3511 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:51 - Nov 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna

“Biden also affirmed his vision for a future Palestinian state "where Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side with equal measures of stability and dignity," the White House said, adding that Hamas had long been an impediment to that.”

Good to hear the US talk of a longer term solution, though it could remain a pipe dream if Trump gets elected next year.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-qatari-emir-discuss-gaza-agree-a

Only 4 of 200 hostages have been released to date. Arab leaders should be calling for this, Isreal will find it hard to sell as ceasefire to their population without bringing them home.


Sunak is apparently going to make a speech about this today, but this appears to me to be window-dressing and is really for the birds.

With Gaza on the brink of destruction, nearly 700,000 settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and hardening attitudes in Israel, any prospect of a two state solution has in my view gone forever.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 8:03]
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How many Palestinian lives must be sacrificed for peace ? on 08:29 - Nov 13 with 3474 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:02 - Nov 13 by DJR

Sunak is apparently going to make a speech about this today, but this appears to me to be window-dressing and is really for the birds.

With Gaza on the brink of destruction, nearly 700,000 settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and hardening attitudes in Israel, any prospect of a two state solution has in my view gone forever.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 8:03]


I disagree, an internationally imposed Palestinian state is now the only way that peace can come to the region and that a Jewish homeland can survive. The alternative is a never ending battle between extremists. It is going to be tough, there will be many losers and no one wants to carry out the establishment of a two state solution but nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:01]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:49 - Nov 13 with 3466 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives must be sacrificed for peace ? on 08:29 - Nov 13 by WeWereZombies

I disagree, an internationally imposed Palestinian state is now the only way that peace can come to the region and that a Jewish homeland can survive. The alternative is a never ending battle between extremists. It is going to be tough, there will be many losers and no one wants to carry out the establishment of a two state solution but nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:01]


I think an internationally protected Palestinian state or entity is needed as soon as possible. And needs to be seen in the context of a similarly internationally protected Israeli state.

No-one else, not Netanyahu or even Gantz, not Hamas or even Fatah can guarantee the rights of civilians on both sides. It’s testament to how far this gravely dangerous situation for civilians has been allowed to develop and become normalised, particularly over the past couple of decades.

I think that’s still only a mid-term solution. There needs to be a process of truth and reconciliation also. Not just because that is a proven step towards the future and helps them see that they share more than what separates them. But as regional neighbours they are bound to each other and need to find ways of cooperating. At some point, I think they will need to create some form of political and economic union that demands more cooperation as a way of keeping peace and preventing the extremists from pulling away from each other from behind national and no doubt ethno-religious borders.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:00 - Nov 13 with 3459 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:02 - Nov 13 by DJR

Sunak is apparently going to make a speech about this today, but this appears to me to be window-dressing and is really for the birds.

With Gaza on the brink of destruction, nearly 700,000 settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and hardening attitudes in Israel, any prospect of a two state solution has in my view gone forever.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 8:03]


I think we have to hold out hope, and perhaps this catastrophe will be seen as a turning point. In the near term a UN buffer zone, but with actual rules of engagement to protect against border incursions from either side.

Maybe wishful thinking, but the breakup of Yugoslavia shows that (although there is still a lot of bad blood), ethnic and territorial conflicts can be settled. The key there has been rapid economic growth, tourism, and achieving better standards of living (particularly Croatia given their accession to the EU.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:00 - Nov 13 with 3459 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives must be sacrificed for peace ? on 08:29 - Nov 13 by WeWereZombies

I disagree, an internationally imposed Palestinian state is now the only way that peace can come to the region and that a Jewish homeland can survive. The alternative is a never ending battle between extremists. It is going to be tough, there will be many losers and no one wants to carry out the establishment of a two state solution but nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:01]


Let's hope so, but I can't see Israel accepting anything internationally imposed.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:38 - Nov 13 with 3429 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives must be sacrificed for peace ? on 08:29 - Nov 13 by WeWereZombies

I disagree, an internationally imposed Palestinian state is now the only way that peace can come to the region and that a Jewish homeland can survive. The alternative is a never ending battle between extremists. It is going to be tough, there will be many losers and no one wants to carry out the establishment of a two state solution but nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:01]


There is zero chance of a two state solution, none.
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How can Israel be saved from itself ? on 11:22 - Nov 13 with 3361 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:38 - Nov 13 by Blueschev

There is zero chance of a two state solution, none.


Then Israel is finished, and having come so far that would be a tragedy.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 12:42]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:32 - Nov 13 with 3353 viewsBlueschev

How can Israel be saved from itself ? on 11:22 - Nov 13 by WeWereZombies

Then Israel is finished, and having come so far that would be a tragedy.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 12:42]


I would imagine there are many Israelis who would see the establishment of a Palestinian state as the beginning of the end for Israel.

I just fail to see how there is enough territory to accommodate a viable Palestinian state. The settlements are going nowhere.
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How can Palestinians be protected ? on 11:48 - Nov 13 with 3347 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:32 - Nov 13 by Blueschev

I would imagine there are many Israelis who would see the establishment of a Palestinian state as the beginning of the end for Israel.

I just fail to see how there is enough territory to accommodate a viable Palestinian state. The settlements are going nowhere.


Whoever gets put in charge of drawing boundaries will be castigated down through the ages but it has to be done. I just hope it is not a last minute appointment like the division of India to form Pakistan in 1948.

And if there isn't enough territory to accommodate a Palestinian state then there is not enough territory to accommodate the current population (even after all this bloodshed - unless the intention is to continue it for months and years) of Israel and the occupied territories. The bigger snag is a unitary Palestinian state with a connecting strip of land between the West Bank and Gaza, the logical solution to my way of thinking would be along Sinai and then north by the Jordanian border - which would indeed face stiff Israeli opposition but would give protection to Bedouins as well as Palestinians.

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 12:31]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:00 - Nov 13 with 3316 viewsBlueschev

How can Palestinians be protected ? on 11:48 - Nov 13 by WeWereZombies

Whoever gets put in charge of drawing boundaries will be castigated down through the ages but it has to be done. I just hope it is not a last minute appointment like the division of India to form Pakistan in 1948.

And if there isn't enough territory to accommodate a Palestinian state then there is not enough territory to accommodate the current population (even after all this bloodshed - unless the intention is to continue it for months and years) of Israel and the occupied territories. The bigger snag is a unitary Palestinian state with a connecting strip of land between the West Bank and Gaza, the logical solution to my way of thinking would be along Sinai and then north by the Jordanian border - which would indeed face stiff Israeli opposition but would give protection to Bedouins as well as Palestinians.

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 12:31]


It would take a huge shift the the political mood of Israel to even get the talk of a Palestinian state back on the table, and would almost certainly lead to civil war were it proposed that the settlements were to be dismantled. On the Palestinian side, accepting a state on what would be at very best 22% of the land would seem like betraying their entire national story, I just can't see it happening.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 12:02]
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There is a way out of this conflict and it doesn't involve war. on 12:11 - Nov 13 with 3290 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:00 - Nov 13 by Blueschev

It would take a huge shift the the political mood of Israel to even get the talk of a Palestinian state back on the table, and would almost certainly lead to civil war were it proposed that the settlements were to be dismantled. On the Palestinian side, accepting a state on what would be at very best 22% of the land would seem like betraying their entire national story, I just can't see it happening.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 12:02]


There is already talk of a Marshall Plan type of arrangement to rebuild Gaza City. Hamas and the Netanyahu administration could not be allowed to have any part of that if funded was required (and it would be) from the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia as well as the United States and Europe. Again, the logical follow on to protect that enormous investment would be the establishment of a Palestinian state to avoid falling back into warfare and destruction. It would have to be imposed on Israel and it would need a lot of boots on the ground. But if ordinary Israelis realised that it would give a home to the demographic time bomb (Arabs giving birth at a significantly faster rate) that is threatening to overwhelm them, and that it would minimise terrorist bombing then I think they would have to accept. They would complain like crazy but most Jews that I have met (I worked for sixteen months for a Jewish run company in Notting Hill Gate) are very intelligent and capable of accepting uncompromising reason.

Edit: Had to change the thread title yet again
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 12:26]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:53 - Nov 14 with 3176 viewsDJR

Dogs eating corpses now. This from the BBC.

Dr Mohamed Abu Selmia, manager of the key Al-Shifa hospital, has told the BBC 32 people have died in recent days.

Three premature babies and seven people had died due to a lack of oxygen, he said.

Several other patients needing dialysis risk dying in "the next couple of days" as the treatment is no longer available, he said.

The hospital is near out of fuel and other resources to keep functioning - with pre-mature babies having been taken out of no longer operational incubators. There are more than 600 injured patients there.

The BBC asked the doctor if the Israeli army had made any contact regarding the evacuation of patients or premature babies. Israel has said that it has sent fuel near to the hospital and other resources.

But the doctor said: "No, they haven’t reached out, instead we reached out to them... but until now we have received no response.

"There are negotiations regarding evacuating premature babies but until now nothing has happened."

Abu Selmia said the hospital had also been in touch with the Red Cross to try and co-ordinate the burial of the bodies, of which there were about 150 in the hospital - but was told that was currently not feasible.

He added - this is detail which some readers may find distressing - that dogs were eating the corpses.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:11 - Nov 14 with 3102 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:32 - Nov 13 by Blueschev

I would imagine there are many Israelis who would see the establishment of a Palestinian state as the beginning of the end for Israel.

I just fail to see how there is enough territory to accommodate a viable Palestinian state. The settlements are going nowhere.


This puts a further nail in the coffin, if that is not an inappropriate idiom to use.

Israeli minister says Israel no longer able to accept existence of Gaza, calls for 'voluntary emigration'

A senior member of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government said on Tuesday Gaza could not survive as an independent entity, and Palestinians there should agree to “voluntary emigration” and leave for other countries.

Finance minister Bezalel Smotrich said “I welcome the initiative of the voluntary emigration of Gaza Arabs to countries around the world. This is the right humanitarian solution for the residents of Gaza and the entire region after 75 years of refugees, poverty and danger. The State of Israel will no longer be able to accept the existence of an independent entity in Gaza
[Post edited 14 Nov 2023 13:12]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:38 - Nov 14 with 3063 viewsDJR

Biden says the attacks may have gone too far, so the Government, then Labour follow suit. But none of them is calling for a ceasefire.

It's all really window-dressing and crocodile tears but politicians in this country must be pleased the war has dropped down the news agenda, not least because of communication difficulties.

Whilst it is now impossible to produce proper casualty figures, I did read, however, yesterday that around 3,500 people are missing including around 1,700 children.

I said on TWTD early on that if the ratio of Gazan civilian deaths to Israeli deaths since 2008 were repeated we could be looking at over 25,000 civilian deaths in Gaza. As far as I can see, we must be now approaching 15,000 deaths at least, and the conflict isn't even over, with deaths from disease and the like surely likely to follow.

Where's the humanity?
[Post edited 14 Nov 2023 15:13]
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Mass graves, I ask you how is this acceptable by anyone ? on 15:42 - Nov 14 with 3017 viewsWeWereZombies

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67400490 @ 13:02

'Earlier, the BBC's Rushdi Abualouf reported that a contact still inside Gaza City's largest hospital, Al-Shifa, had told him 170 bodies were being buried in a mass grave there.

Since then, we’ve heard from the hospital’s director who says 179 people, including babies, have been buried in the grave within the hospital grounds.

"There are bodies littered in the hospital complex and there is no longer electricity at the morgues," Mohammad Abu Salmiyah is quoted by multiple news agencies as saying. "We were forced to bury them in a mass grave."

Salmiyah adds that the patients died after vital hospital equipment failed due to power cuts - this happens because of a lack of fuel needed to power generators.'

A further news item, at 14:40

'The BBC's Rushdi Abualouf has heard that no people, or any items of aid, have been allowed in or out of the Al-Shifa hospital for the last 48 hours, according to one of his contacts.

That source - one of the few remaining journalists in the hospital - says four people had tried to leave Al-Shifa yesterday, but were shot in the legs and left on the ground bleeding for around two hours.

Medics had to risk their lives to get them into the hospital for treatment, the source tells Abualouf.'

Hell on Earth, created by human beings.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:45 - Nov 14 with 2930 viewsDJR

Interesting opinion on what a humanitarian pause means to someone in Gaza.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/14/humanitarian-pause-gaza-pr

These are the key passages.

A “humanitarian” pause will only prolong our suffering. A humanitarian pause is nothing but a small bandage on an open wound and a way to draw this horror out longer. There is nothing humanitarian about starving, being made homeless, living in rubble. When the fighting resumes, we are forced to wonder: what good is a humanitarian pause for aid if the killing doesn’t stop? If you want to give aid and be humanitarian then the killing must stop, through an immediate ceasefire.

It won’t help the thousands of civilians, children, men and women who have already been killed, but it will prevent more deaths. Truly, the only humanitarian action for those of us still alive, to be able to survive, is an immediate ceasefire. And then, once the assaults have stopped, we can start going through the rubble of our homes, treating our wounded, burying our dead, and beginning to rebuild our lives.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:19 - Nov 14 with 2863 viewsnoggin

Makes ya proud to be English...

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There may be no end to the premature loss of Palestinian and Israeli lives on 23:23 - Nov 14 with 2846 viewsWeWereZombies

A summation of how things stand by Jeremy Bowen of the BBC today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67404110

'If this Gaza war was like all the others, a ceasefire would probably have been in force by now...But this war is not like that. It is not just because of the enormity of the killing, first by Hamas on 7 October, mostly of Israeli civilians, followed by Israel's "mighty vengeance" as its Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it, which has mostly killed Palestinian civilians...it comes at a time when the fault lines that divide the Middle East are rumbling. For at least two decades, the most serious rift in the region's fractured geopolitical landscape has been between the friends and allies of Iran, and the friends and allies of the United States...Iran is also getting closer to Russia and China. Iran has become a significant part of Russia's war effort in Ukraine. China buys a great deal of Iranian oil...On America's side are Israel, the Gulf oil states, Jordan and Egypt. The US continues to give strong support to Israel, even though it is clear that President Joe Biden is uncomfortable about the way Israel is killing so many Palestinian civilians...The second part of the American plan is for negotiations on a two-state solution, something that Benjamin Netanyahu has opposed throughout his political life...Leaderships change, eventually. If this terrible war in Gaza doesn't force the Israelis, Palestinians and their powerful friends to try again to make peace, then the only future is more war. '

I have cut down the text to try and give a manageable flavour of teh article but in the hope of encouraging anyone who has contributed to this thread to click on the link and read the full text, it deals with so much of what we have been discussing over the last nineteen pages.



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