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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:58 - Dec 5 by StokieBlue
"Btw beware of the numbers being reported. I am sure they are horrifically high but I believe the numbers as much as I believe in Father Christmas."
Can you please retract this statement? It's misinformation.
The numbers have been confirmed by numerous independent and external agencies, to cast doubt on them is pretty unacceptable and you've be all over it if someone did something similar the other way around.
SB
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 22:58]
What?!
You lot have hit the sherry early this year.
You think me questioning the numbers of a terrorist organisation is misinformation.
Am I wrong in saying the numbers are coming from the “Hamas health ministry”?
You prove to me the original source is not the “Hamas health ministry” and I’ll delete it.
If it is coming from the there then I hate to tell you but the tooth fairy isn’t real.
You’d rightly question Ukraine and Russia’s reporting of deaths in a war but not Hamas?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:26 - Dec 5 with 2875 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:26 - Dec 5 by Rob88
O I agree, but you miss my point.
Oh I don't. You think massive civilian casualties is just a consequence of the greater good of fighting terrorism. I want you to tell me what the Iraq war has achieved for global security, and what Israel's current violence against the Palestinian people, will do for Israel's own security.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:25 - Dec 5 by Rob88
What?!
You lot have hit the sherry early this year.
You think me questioning the numbers of a terrorist organisation is misinformation.
Am I wrong in saying the numbers are coming from the “Hamas health ministry”?
You prove to me the original source is not the “Hamas health ministry” and I’ll delete it.
If it is coming from the there then I hate to tell you but the tooth fairy isn’t real.
You’d rightly question Ukraine and Russia’s reporting of deaths in a war but not Hamas?
The numbers have been independently verified as being roughly correct. Attacking one source to discredit the numbers from multiple sources is a fallacy, it's poisoning the well.
The burden of proof is on you to show that the UN, MSF etc are wrong in their independent analysis.
There is also a quote in this thread (I'm on my phone so can't dig it out easily) where the US administration has also confirmed the numbers and even classified them as a "low end estimate". Will you be casting down on the US government as well?
Furthermore there is the independent analysis showing up to 51% of buildings in northern Gaza have been damaged, something that clearly leads to mass casualties.
If you're finding these numbers uncomfortable then perhaps you need to reflect on that rather than trying to sow doubt on something which has been independently verified and an approximate consensus found.
SB
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8
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:40 - Dec 5 with 2794 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:33 - Dec 5 by noggin
Oh I don't. You think massive civilian casualties is just a consequence of the greater good of fighting terrorism. I want you to tell me what the Iraq war has achieved for global security, and what Israel's current violence against the Palestinian people, will do for Israel's own security.
You are very good at putting words in my mouth. None of them actually correct or what I think.
The fallout from Iraq, what a sh!te show, although can I see why Blair took the call, yes. Saddam was a very nasty man at the head of an even worse regime.
The notion of the second part is why I joined in this thread in the first place. I am not going to repeat myself because there’s about 4 pages of prior posts to read.
Genuinely interested. How would you stop another Hamas atrocity?
Let’s say you were the prime minister of Israel. What would you have done on the 8th of October?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:47 - Dec 5 with 2775 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:36 - Dec 5 by StokieBlue
The numbers have been independently verified as being roughly correct. Attacking one source to discredit the numbers from multiple sources is a fallacy, it's poisoning the well.
The burden of proof is on you to show that the UN, MSF etc are wrong in their independent analysis.
There is also a quote in this thread (I'm on my phone so can't dig it out easily) where the US administration has also confirmed the numbers and even classified them as a "low end estimate". Will you be casting down on the US government as well?
Furthermore there is the independent analysis showing up to 51% of buildings in northern Gaza have been damaged, something that clearly leads to mass casualties.
If you're finding these numbers uncomfortable then perhaps you need to reflect on that rather than trying to sow doubt on something which has been independently verified and an approximate consensus found.
SB
I will happily stand corrected on the numbers but you don’t seem to disagree about the source of the numbers.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 23:48]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:52 - Dec 5 with 2769 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:40 - Dec 5 by Rob88
You are very good at putting words in my mouth. None of them actually correct or what I think.
The fallout from Iraq, what a sh!te show, although can I see why Blair took the call, yes. Saddam was a very nasty man at the head of an even worse regime.
The notion of the second part is why I joined in this thread in the first place. I am not going to repeat myself because there’s about 4 pages of prior posts to read.
Genuinely interested. How would you stop another Hamas atrocity?
Let’s say you were the prime minister of Israel. What would you have done on the 8th of October?
"Genuinely interested. How would you stop another Hamas atrocity?"
Firstly, I would show restraint. Retaliation is not the answer, as we have seen time and time again. I would immediately bulldoze the illegal settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem, and return the land to its rightful owners. I would also punish the settlers for their crimes against the Palestinian people. This would immediately show the world that Israel was serious about finding a solution to the conflict. Bombing civilian areas will never win the war on terror, quite the opposite, but you know this.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:52 - Dec 5 by noggin
"Genuinely interested. How would you stop another Hamas atrocity?"
Firstly, I would show restraint. Retaliation is not the answer, as we have seen time and time again. I would immediately bulldoze the illegal settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem, and return the land to its rightful owners. I would also punish the settlers for their crimes against the Palestinian people. This would immediately show the world that Israel was serious about finding a solution to the conflict. Bombing civilian areas will never win the war on terror, quite the opposite, but you know this.
So you would allow it to happen again?
Tbh your response reads as if you would almost actively encourage it by way of doing nothing.
With all of this I am most interested in why people think the things they do. You’ve answered it right there so thank you. A very revealing post, maybe more so than you realise.
It’s a scary world people.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 23:58]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:59 - Dec 5 with 2723 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:56 - Dec 5 by Rob88
So you would allow it to happen again?
Tbh your response reads as if you would almost actively encourage it by way of doing nothing.
With all of this I am most interested in why people think the things they do. You’ve answered it right there so thank you. A very revealing post, maybe more so than you realise.
It’s a scary world people.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 23:58]
Israel is quite capable of preventing it happening again. They took their eye off the ball in a somewhat schoolboy error. Believe me, they won't let it happen again.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:47 - Dec 5 by Rob88
I will happily stand corrected on the numbers but you don’t seem to disagree about the source of the numbers.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 23:48]
Why are you ignoring the independent analysis from multiple agencies whom agree the numbers are accurate? Why are you ignoring the statement from the US government which states that the numbers are very conservative?
The original source is irrelevant once independent analysis has been undertaken and is also irrelevant with regards to the US whom will have undertaken their own intelligence.
Your posting is fallacious and propagates misinformation on a thread concerned with the number of Palestinian deaths - please stop it now.
SB
[Post edited 6 Dec 2023 9:35]
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4
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:45 - Dec 6 with 2528 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:47 - Dec 5 by Rob88
I will happily stand corrected on the numbers but you don’t seem to disagree about the source of the numbers.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 23:48]
I'm sorry, but that's just a ridiculous thing to say. If you're now accepting the numbers are more or less accurate, why the hell does it matter in a reasonable, non-self-serving discussion, what the original source of those numbers is?
# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:17 - Dec 5 by Rob88
Have they independently verified them and if so how so?
I have questioned the numbers as I imagine it is bl00dy difficult to keep tally in such circumstances, in addition the numbers, as far as I understand it are originating from a terrorist organisation. I’ve never really trusted those kinds of things tbh.
Why do I think raping someone to death is different from someone losing their life as a tragic consequence of war. Seriously, are you asking me that?
So you think Hamas should exist?
I’ll tell you what I really think, the whole thing is a fcking mess.
The bit I struggle with is the lack of balance with some people.
I can completely understand the Israelis wanting to eliminate Hamas. Look at the American response (and most of the NATO counties) after 911. I think of it had happened on your street, your family, your friends, you’d feel the same. I am also able to hold two conflicting thoughts at once, so I also understand and sympathise with the plight of the ordinary Palestinian who want nothing to do with Israel, nothing to do with Hamas and just wants to live like you or I, at home in peace.
"Have they independently verified them and if so how so?
I have questioned the numbers as I imagine it is bl00dy difficult to keep tally in such circumstances, in addition the numbers, as far as I understand it are originating from a terrorist organisation. I’ve never really trusted those kinds of things tbh."
This has now been covered - the numbers are accurate and you should post using that context.
"Why do I think raping someone to death is different from someone losing their life as a tragic consequence of war. Seriously, are you asking me that?
As I have clearly stated, the methods are different and what Hamas did was utterly awful but the end result is similar - I doubt the 4000 dead children take much solace knowing they were killed by bombing. You also need to consider the context of the bombing which has been described as "disproportional" and "indiscriminate". This is not the approach of someone trying to avoid civilian casualties or someone taking the moral high ground.
So once again, when do you feel an equivalence can be made? Or are the number of Palestinian deaths not a factor in establishing an equivalence?
"So you think Hamas should exist?"
More utterly disingenuous posting from you - where have I said this? Please stop using emotive language with no substance to derail the debate.
"The bit I struggle with is the lack of balance with some people."
It's you not showing any balance and unfortunately you seem blind to the fact. This is easily highlighted by your refusal to accept independent analysis. Look at yourself before accusing others of lack of balance.
"I can completely understand the Israelis wanting to eliminate Hamas. Look at the American response (and most of the NATO counties) after 911. I think of it had happened on your street, your family, your friends, you’d feel the same. I am also able to hold two conflicting thoughts at once, so I also understand and sympathise with the plight of the ordinary Palestinian who want nothing to do with Israel, nothing to do with Hamas and just wants to live like you or I, at home in peace."
Actually, I wouldn't want the flattening of a civilian population or the driving of innocents from their homes so please don't make assumptions on my behalf.
With regards to 9/11 - at the start of this Biden directly appealed to the Israeli government not to make the mistakes that the US made after 9/11 so I am not sure using it as a comparison is entirely sensible given that.
I would also point out that pre-ceasefire the rate of deaths in Gaza was running at approximately 40 times that of the Iraq war - there is some analysis on the forum around this.
SB
[Post edited 6 Dec 2023 9:50]
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
7
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:39 - Dec 6 with 2443 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:52 - Dec 5 by noggin
"Genuinely interested. How would you stop another Hamas atrocity?"
Firstly, I would show restraint. Retaliation is not the answer, as we have seen time and time again. I would immediately bulldoze the illegal settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem, and return the land to its rightful owners. I would also punish the settlers for their crimes against the Palestinian people. This would immediately show the world that Israel was serious about finding a solution to the conflict. Bombing civilian areas will never win the war on terror, quite the opposite, but you know this.
The issue is that would come across as Hamas "winning" - that terrorism works. That their kidnapping, raping, torturing and murdering of Israelis budged government policy in their favour.
For th above to happen, there would have to be concessions from Hamas as well. Acknowledgement of the existence of the Israeli state within the internationally agreed borders and acceptance there will be no further attacks, either via land or air, on it.
The following reinforces my view that there is no prospect of a two-state solution because security will trump everything. And for those who say that things will be different when Netanyahu steps down, the current Israeli strategy is supported by all main parties in Israel.
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the Israeli military will retain open-ended security control over the Gaza Strip long after its war against Hamas ends.
In a news conference late Tuesday, Netanyahu said Gaza would have to remain demilitarized and that the only body capable of ensuring this would be the Israeli military, the AP and the Times of Israel reported.
“Gaza must be demilitarized. And in order for Gaza to be demilitarized, there is only one force which can ensure this demilitarization – and this force is the Israel Defense Forces,” said Netanyahu.
“No international force can be responsible for this,” he said.
Various proposals have been made about who would take charge of security in Gaza after the war, including the suggestion that Arab states could send troops, although this has been dismissed by Arab countries.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:04 - Dec 6 with 2381 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:55 - Dec 6 by DJR
The following reinforces my view that there is no prospect of a two-state solution because security will trump everything. And for those who say that things will be different when Netanyahu steps down, the current Israeli strategy is supported by all main parties in Israel.
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the Israeli military will retain open-ended security control over the Gaza Strip long after its war against Hamas ends.
In a news conference late Tuesday, Netanyahu said Gaza would have to remain demilitarized and that the only body capable of ensuring this would be the Israeli military, the AP and the Times of Israel reported.
“Gaza must be demilitarized. And in order for Gaza to be demilitarized, there is only one force which can ensure this demilitarization – and this force is the Israel Defense Forces,” said Netanyahu.
“No international force can be responsible for this,” he said.
Various proposals have been made about who would take charge of security in Gaza after the war, including the suggestion that Arab states could send troops, although this has been dismissed by Arab countries.
It seems clear to me that the end game is that life in Gaza becomes so unbearable that the Rafa crossing will be opened and the Palestinians of Gaza will resettle in other lands. Numerous Israeli politicians have floated this idea, and John Bolton also attested to it.
Meanwhile settlement building continues in the West Bank and is actively encouraged by the Israeli government. Those settlements are now far too big and established to be dismantled, and any attempt to do so would lead to a civil war.
The hard truth is, there is no room for a viable Palestinian state.
2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:10 - Dec 6 with 2358 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:04 - Dec 6 by Blueschev
It seems clear to me that the end game is that life in Gaza becomes so unbearable that the Rafa crossing will be opened and the Palestinians of Gaza will resettle in other lands. Numerous Israeli politicians have floated this idea, and John Bolton also attested to it.
Meanwhile settlement building continues in the West Bank and is actively encouraged by the Israeli government. Those settlements are now far too big and established to be dismantled, and any attempt to do so would lead to a civil war.
The hard truth is, there is no room for a viable Palestinian state.
On a two-state solution more generally, this is an interesting article which includes the following passage written at a time before the current conflict but even more apt now.
"With the advent of the new Biden administration in the United States, the phrase “two-state solution” appears to have returned to the forefront in the new U.S. administration’s “reset” of its policy priorities regarding the Palestinian-Israeli dispute.
The phrase is repeated daily by administration officials as well as by international leaders and organizations, as it was during the Obama and previous administrations.
However, as in the past, the phrase is again being bandied about as a form of collective and generalized “wishful thinking,” as the only panacea to the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, but without a full awareness of its history, its practical implications, and the feasibility of its implementation amidst the realities of that dispute."
And this is an interesting fact, from the following article in the Jerusalem Post, which I didn't know and in my view makes current talk of a two-state solution something of a dead cat.
"... the two-state solution did not appear in UN Security Council Resolution 242, Resolution 338 or in the 1993 Oslo Accords, or in any of its multiple implementation agreements that were generated over the years."
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:26 - Dec 6 with 2301 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:45 - Dec 6 by NthQldITFC
I'm sorry, but that's just a ridiculous thing to say. If you're now accepting the numbers are more or less accurate, why the hell does it matter in a reasonable, non-self-serving discussion, what the original source of those numbers is?
Who says I’m accepting. I didn’t. I’m waiting for SB to prove I am wrong about the source of the numbers.
I have only read that independent agencies don’t disbelieve the numbers. That’s not independent verification to me.
Why does it matter what the source of the numbers is? Why does it matter what the source of anything is? The world must be flat, some bloke said it was on the internet.
A little unsure why you lot have focused In so much on a factual, irrefutable statement rather than the wider conversation. Any who, I think Noggin probably summed up the real underlying view here quite nicely and has helped me better understand the thoughts and motives of those that show no balance in their thought or discussion and who make completely fallacious statements about “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide”. What’s happening is not right, and more needs to be done for the people of Palestine but that finger is only pointed at Israel by most on here. I did say 10:1, I think it’s 1000:1. Nobody is pointing it at Hamas, the governing authority, or the UN who should be arbiter and enforced in such a deeply troubled, tragic and complex affair.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:30 - Dec 6 with 2282 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:59 - Dec 5 by noggin
Israel is quite capable of preventing it happening again. They took their eye off the ball in a somewhat schoolboy error. Believe me, they won't let it happen again.
Hamas is quite capable of stopping all of this but they choose not to. And you defend them to the hilt in choosing not to. How many deaths will it take for you to condemn Hamas. How many deaths? Just need a number….etcetera etcetera.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:30 - Dec 6 with 2282 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:26 - Dec 6 by Rob88
Who says I’m accepting. I didn’t. I’m waiting for SB to prove I am wrong about the source of the numbers.
I have only read that independent agencies don’t disbelieve the numbers. That’s not independent verification to me.
Why does it matter what the source of the numbers is? Why does it matter what the source of anything is? The world must be flat, some bloke said it was on the internet.
A little unsure why you lot have focused In so much on a factual, irrefutable statement rather than the wider conversation. Any who, I think Noggin probably summed up the real underlying view here quite nicely and has helped me better understand the thoughts and motives of those that show no balance in their thought or discussion and who make completely fallacious statements about “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide”. What’s happening is not right, and more needs to be done for the people of Palestine but that finger is only pointed at Israel by most on here. I did say 10:1, I think it’s 1000:1. Nobody is pointing it at Hamas, the governing authority, or the UN who should be arbiter and enforced in such a deeply troubled, tragic and complex affair.
Absolutely vile individual
2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:38 - Dec 6 with 2249 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:26 - Dec 6 by Rob88
Who says I’m accepting. I didn’t. I’m waiting for SB to prove I am wrong about the source of the numbers.
I have only read that independent agencies don’t disbelieve the numbers. That’s not independent verification to me.
Why does it matter what the source of the numbers is? Why does it matter what the source of anything is? The world must be flat, some bloke said it was on the internet.
A little unsure why you lot have focused In so much on a factual, irrefutable statement rather than the wider conversation. Any who, I think Noggin probably summed up the real underlying view here quite nicely and has helped me better understand the thoughts and motives of those that show no balance in their thought or discussion and who make completely fallacious statements about “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide”. What’s happening is not right, and more needs to be done for the people of Palestine but that finger is only pointed at Israel by most on here. I did say 10:1, I think it’s 1000:1. Nobody is pointing it at Hamas, the governing authority, or the UN who should be arbiter and enforced in such a deeply troubled, tragic and complex affair.
You're using an argument from authority fallacy to try and dismiss figures you don't like.
By your logic, all numbers should be dismissed because they will come from a source with a vested interested - clearly a nonsensical position. By that measure we should also question the number of deaths on the 7th October given the source - something I have no reason to do because I accept figures that have been verified.
I really shouldn't have to do this, the burden of proof is on you but given you're derailing and undermining a thread on Palestinian deaths with your nonsense I'll have to do your job for you.
""We think they're very high, frankly," Barbara Leaf, assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, told a House Foreign Affairs Committee, "and it could be that they're even higher than are being cited."
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:30 - Dec 6 by Rob88
Hamas is quite capable of stopping all of this but they choose not to. And you defend them to the hilt in choosing not to. How many deaths will it take for you to condemn Hamas. How many deaths? Just need a number….etcetera etcetera.
"Nobody here has defended, or not been shocked/saddened by the attack on 7th Oct, it was evil. You however seem to be thoroughly encouraged by Israel's response. This is no longer Hamas using a few civilians as human shields, it's full on ethnic cleansing. Those Palestinians 'lucky' enough to still be alive are being advised to move to baron areas with no water, shelter or sanitation. That is equally evil to the Hamas attacks. Thousands of women and children killed by indiscriminate bombing and now thousands will likely die of disease. If you think that's acceptable, then you yourself are evil."
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:26 - Dec 6 by Rob88
Who says I’m accepting. I didn’t. I’m waiting for SB to prove I am wrong about the source of the numbers.
I have only read that independent agencies don’t disbelieve the numbers. That’s not independent verification to me.
Why does it matter what the source of the numbers is? Why does it matter what the source of anything is? The world must be flat, some bloke said it was on the internet.
A little unsure why you lot have focused In so much on a factual, irrefutable statement rather than the wider conversation. Any who, I think Noggin probably summed up the real underlying view here quite nicely and has helped me better understand the thoughts and motives of those that show no balance in their thought or discussion and who make completely fallacious statements about “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide”. What’s happening is not right, and more needs to be done for the people of Palestine but that finger is only pointed at Israel by most on here. I did say 10:1, I think it’s 1000:1. Nobody is pointing it at Hamas, the governing authority, or the UN who should be arbiter and enforced in such a deeply troubled, tragic and complex affair.
Ah, sorry, I misinterpreted your slightly ambiguous first line. I thought you were now happy to accept the numbers, but I now understand that the double negative in your second paragraph is your position.
I don't really understand your third paragraph - IF you had accepted the veracity of the numbers then the original source of them would only matter if it offended you on an emotional level, surely? Apologies if I'm missing something.
I agree that 'ethnic cleansing' is perhaps a somewhat devalued phrase (a little like 'terrorist') but with direct statements from within the Israeli government and with the consequences of the massive infrastructure destruction, massive bombing and herding of the population south, it certainly has the look of something along those lines. But perhaps Israel will rebuild Gaza for the Palestinian people afterwards, who knows? 'Genocide' I would agree is too strong a word though.
# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
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