| cheery stuff 10:25 - Feb 24 with 1524 views | giant_stow |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpv4n0dg3v3o
"Significantly, the forthcoming chancellor put Donald Trump's America on a par with Russia - widely viewed here as a security threat to Europe more broadly. "We are under such massive pressure from two sides that my absolute priority now really is to create unity in Europe," Merz said."
"German voters worry about security in Europe - including the future of the 35,000 American soldiers stationed in Germany.
France and the UK are nuclear powers. Germany is not. Even its conventional military is woefully understaffed and underequipped (to the immense irritation of European partners), so Germany fears it's a soft target. |  |
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| cheery stuff on 10:54 - Feb 24 with 1437 views | J2BLUE |
I know I am as much to blame as the other idiots for Brexit but we really should be talking about a new referendum on re-joining on the same terms if the EU would accept that. The world has changed significantly. |  |
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| cheery stuff on 11:03 - Feb 24 with 1403 views | baxterbasics |
| cheery stuff on 10:54 - Feb 24 by J2BLUE |
I know I am as much to blame as the other idiots for Brexit but we really should be talking about a new referendum on re-joining on the same terms if the EU would accept that. The world has changed significantly. |
I don't see EU membership as particularly important when it comes to defence matters, we are quite able to work together over this on the outside. This concerns a number of European countries not inside the EU in addition to the UK. If anything, the EU as an institution is not well fit for dealing with such things, it's too slow and bureaucratic. You need to be flexible and dynamic in dealing with defence matters. It's old-school realist power that counts here - so UK, France and Germany will lead on this, if they have the will. |  |
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| cheery stuff on 11:15 - Feb 24 with 1373 views | giant_stow |
| cheery stuff on 10:54 - Feb 24 by J2BLUE |
I know I am as much to blame as the other idiots for Brexit but we really should be talking about a new referendum on re-joining on the same terms if the EU would accept that. The world has changed significantly. |
If we're to be part of a new European defense pact with Germany, France and Poland, I'd hope we could achieve a quiet softening of some of the rough brexit edges, at the least. Particularly if our nukes, with France's form a new nuke brolly - that can't come for free - we're too skint for that.. | |
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| cheery stuff on 11:30 - Feb 24 with 1310 views | nrb1985 |
| cheery stuff on 10:54 - Feb 24 by J2BLUE |
I know I am as much to blame as the other idiots for Brexit but we really should be talking about a new referendum on re-joining on the same terms if the EU would accept that. The world has changed significantly. |
These points were all outlined in the referendum - sure, Trump hadn't been elected then but the case against being a tiny island p1ssing in the wind, with America on one side and China and Russia on the other was clearly laid out.
People knew all of this, made their bed and decided to sleep in it. |  | | |
| cheery stuff on 11:35 - Feb 24 with 1284 views | J2BLUE |
| cheery stuff on 11:30 - Feb 24 by nrb1985 |
These points were all outlined in the referendum - sure, Trump hadn't been elected then but the case against being a tiny island p1ssing in the wind, with America on one side and China and Russia on the other was clearly laid out.
People knew all of this, made their bed and decided to sleep in it. |
Not defending voting for it but I think it's fair to say America back then were a key ally and NATO was strong (at least theoretically). Trump 2.0 is something no one saw coming. I don't mean him being re-elected. I mean him returning like this. Trump version one was bad. This one is monstrous. | |
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| cheery stuff on 15:01 - Feb 24 with 1016 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Europe is counting the cost of complacency and bad leadership. Germany’s decision to rely on Russian gas, and believing Russia could be tamed through trade and supply chains was dreadfully naive. Getmany as an industrial powerhouse, therefore has taken the biggest economic hit since the Ukraine war started and sanctions came in. Germany and Europe (to an extent the UK) as a whole should have been paying their fair share of defence costs and now they are panicking about security in their doorstop. Germany famously sent Ukraine some missiles which were mouldy and unusable - how did their leaders let the largest economy in Europe (multitudes bigger than Russia) get in such a state. The writing was on the wall post Crimea, the UK and US provided training to the Ukrainian army post invasion (of Crimea) and provided equipment such as the mobile anti-tank missiles whilst Europe didn’t get involved to avoid upsetting Putin.
None of this means Trump is right of course, but Europe shoulders a lot of the blame for the situation they now find themselves in. [Post edited 24 Feb 15:05]
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| cheery stuff on 15:09 - Feb 24 with 967 views | baxterbasics |
| cheery stuff on 15:01 - Feb 24 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Europe is counting the cost of complacency and bad leadership. Germany’s decision to rely on Russian gas, and believing Russia could be tamed through trade and supply chains was dreadfully naive. Getmany as an industrial powerhouse, therefore has taken the biggest economic hit since the Ukraine war started and sanctions came in. Germany and Europe (to an extent the UK) as a whole should have been paying their fair share of defence costs and now they are panicking about security in their doorstop. Germany famously sent Ukraine some missiles which were mouldy and unusable - how did their leaders let the largest economy in Europe (multitudes bigger than Russia) get in such a state. The writing was on the wall post Crimea, the UK and US provided training to the Ukrainian army post invasion (of Crimea) and provided equipment such as the mobile anti-tank missiles whilst Europe didn’t get involved to avoid upsetting Putin.
None of this means Trump is right of course, but Europe shoulders a lot of the blame for the situation they now find themselves in. [Post edited 24 Feb 15:05]
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One thing Trump has a point on, and there aren't many, is on Europe needing to take more responsibility for her defence and contribution to NATO. It was perhaps inevitable that after 80 odd years of acting as guarantor for peace in Europe, the USA would eventually decide it had done enough. Trump has gone about it in typical clumsy hamfisted fashion, but it's really just sped up the inevitable, in my opinion. If he follows through and really does step back big time, I would be surprised to see future US administrations rolling back to the current status quo. | |
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| cheery stuff on 15:26 - Feb 24 with 914 views | DJR |
| cheery stuff on 15:09 - Feb 24 by baxterbasics |
One thing Trump has a point on, and there aren't many, is on Europe needing to take more responsibility for her defence and contribution to NATO. It was perhaps inevitable that after 80 odd years of acting as guarantor for peace in Europe, the USA would eventually decide it had done enough. Trump has gone about it in typical clumsy hamfisted fashion, but it's really just sped up the inevitable, in my opinion. If he follows through and really does step back big time, I would be surprised to see future US administrations rolling back to the current status quo. |
I think we need to get a bit of perspective here.
The US spends 3.4% of GDP on defence, but its focus these days is Asia (including China) and the Pacific.
Indeed, according to the following there are 128,000 US troops in East Asia, Southeast Asia, and Pacific Ocean (as well as 20,000 in Alaska), and only 63,000 in Europe. There are also 1 million troops based in the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments#:~:text=The%20m
That being the case, it presumably spends less than 1.7% of its GDP on areas in which NATO has an interest, which is probably less than nearly every European nation.
[Post edited 24 Feb 15:29]
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| cheery stuff on 15:49 - Feb 24 with 850 views | WeWereZombies |
| cheery stuff on 15:09 - Feb 24 by baxterbasics |
One thing Trump has a point on, and there aren't many, is on Europe needing to take more responsibility for her defence and contribution to NATO. It was perhaps inevitable that after 80 odd years of acting as guarantor for peace in Europe, the USA would eventually decide it had done enough. Trump has gone about it in typical clumsy hamfisted fashion, but it's really just sped up the inevitable, in my opinion. If he follows through and really does step back big time, I would be surprised to see future US administrations rolling back to the current status quo. |
But there is a structural point here too (underlined by the statistics in the post by DJR after yours.)
If the United States wants a stronger relationship with Russia (lots of resources still to tap into in the World's biggest nation state) then a degree of unsuitability as an ally subsists. At best it will have to take a back seat in NATO, straightforward enough for a defensively stronger Europe but what about Canada ? Probably richer in resources than Russia and with an ever increasing threat of encroachment as the Arctic sea ice melts [Post edited 24 Feb 16:37]
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| cheery stuff on 16:18 - Feb 24 with 811 views | NthQldITFC |
| cheery stuff on 11:15 - Feb 24 by giant_stow |
If we're to be part of a new European defense pact with Germany, France and Poland, I'd hope we could achieve a quiet softening of some of the rough brexit edges, at the least. Particularly if our nukes, with France's form a new nuke brolly - that can't come for free - we're too skint for that.. |
I certainly don't agree with a lot of the new German chancellor's policies, particularly the environmental ones, but I like the noises he's making wrt breaking away form the US. Shame the coalition didn't require Green input.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/policies-german-election-favourites-cdu-con |  |
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| cheery stuff on 23:21 - Feb 24 with 669 views | WeWereZombies |
| cheery stuff on 15:01 - Feb 24 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Europe is counting the cost of complacency and bad leadership. Germany’s decision to rely on Russian gas, and believing Russia could be tamed through trade and supply chains was dreadfully naive. Getmany as an industrial powerhouse, therefore has taken the biggest economic hit since the Ukraine war started and sanctions came in. Germany and Europe (to an extent the UK) as a whole should have been paying their fair share of defence costs and now they are panicking about security in their doorstop. Germany famously sent Ukraine some missiles which were mouldy and unusable - how did their leaders let the largest economy in Europe (multitudes bigger than Russia) get in such a state. The writing was on the wall post Crimea, the UK and US provided training to the Ukrainian army post invasion (of Crimea) and provided equipment such as the mobile anti-tank missiles whilst Europe didn’t get involved to avoid upsetting Putin.
None of this means Trump is right of course, but Europe shoulders a lot of the blame for the situation they now find themselves in. [Post edited 24 Feb 15:05]
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It's taken me a while to get around to one of the many long reads on the BBC website but this is a good bit of graveyard humour:
'As Russian troops massed on Ukraine's borders, Germany delivered 5,000 ballistic combat helmets instead of offensive weapons. Vitali Klitschko, the mayor of Kyiv and once heavyweight boxing champion of the world, complained to a German newspaper that it was "a joke… What kind of support will Germany send next, pillows?"'
BBC News - Three years on, Ukraine's extinction nightmare has returned - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2xngznyego [Post edited 24 Feb 23:22]
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