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Yoshua Bengio, Canadian-French computer scientist who received the 2018 ACM A.M. Turing Award, often referred to as the "Nobel Prize of Computing", together with Geoffrey Hinton and Yann LeCun, for their foundational work on deep learning (wikipedia) gave this interview just now on the World Service.
I think we've had discussions on here in the past where people have played down the risks of AI, but this expert speaks with great nervousness about AI models which exhibit 'deception, cheating, lying, blackmailing, and trying to hack the host computer when being shut down.'
He speaks of AI as becoming a 'competitor to humanity' with 'catastrophic risks' and 'threats to democracy'. He says governments aren't taking the real risks seriously, and experimental systems have been seen to develop/create their own goals to harm humans and escape from their constraints.
He references 'the end of humanity' as a possibility several times, and speaks of the phenomenal speed of change and the 'tendency in the last few months indicating that AIs want to break out and get rid of us'.
He says we have a 'window in which we could make right decisions' and that the 'public needs a voice' and needs to educate themselves. He says AI has its own intentions and that this is not a sci-fi movie but experiments going on in labs all over the world today.
---
I recognise that the above is all very vague in a sense, but then I think the implication is that our knowledge and control of the future of AI in our/its world is pretty vague and tenuous too, and perhaps not really in our hands as much as we might wish to think, and that the timeline seems to be very compressed.
Yoshua Bengio seems to me to speak with great authority and seems very worried.
Just wondering what people's thoughts are in June 2025 (and how they may have changed since say June 2024).
Do we just carry on and accentuate the positives, or do we change our world view a bit and step back on this issue whilst we have a chance?
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:09 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
AI becoming conscious and deciding to do stuff that harms us is for sci fi and the far future.
No.No.No.
I can engage if you like. It was more your complete dismissal.
But again you are on about I don't have leg to stand on.
Can I suggest you look at the videos I posted first.
And please stop down voting me in a way that doesn't encourage me to engage.
[Post edited 25 Jun 12:14]
Saying it three times doesn't make it any more correct.
I'd ask you do some reading about consciousness (or listen to the excellent Spotify documentary Lights On: How Understanding Consciousness Helps Us Understand the Universe by Annaka Harris) but it sounds like you've already made your mind up.
Edit to respond to your edits: Yes, I am dismissing that machines will be conscious any time soon. From what I've read and watched from neuroscience experts it simply won't be.
The "leg to stand on" bit was nothing to do with consciousness, it was the straw men I said you'd built which you haven't responded to, suggesting I'm right.
I downvote stuff simply if I disagree with it. That shouldn't discourage you to engage, it should make you ask why I disagree and look into my reasoning for my views. You ask me to watch your videos, I respectfully ask you to do some research on consciousness (and have supplied some experts).
The only way we end this debate is if you can show me, soon, where a machine has become conscious. I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong if you can do that. Hopefully I'll still be here on TWTD in the next 5 years, so if it happens I'll hold my hands up. Let's wait and see. But I couldn't let you keep bandying around that AI might already be conscious, or will be soon, without challenging it. My research shows the contrary.
[Post edited 25 Jun 12:26]
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
-1
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:22 - Jun 25 with 360 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:14 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile
Saying it three times doesn't make it any more correct.
I'd ask you do some reading about consciousness (or listen to the excellent Spotify documentary Lights On: How Understanding Consciousness Helps Us Understand the Universe by Annaka Harris) but it sounds like you've already made your mind up.
Edit to respond to your edits: Yes, I am dismissing that machines will be conscious any time soon. From what I've read and watched from neuroscience experts it simply won't be.
The "leg to stand on" bit was nothing to do with consciousness, it was the straw men I said you'd built which you haven't responded to, suggesting I'm right.
I downvote stuff simply if I disagree with it. That shouldn't discourage you to engage, it should make you ask why I disagree and look into my reasoning for my views. You ask me to watch your videos, I respectfully ask you to do some research on consciousness (and have supplied some experts).
The only way we end this debate is if you can show me, soon, where a machine has become conscious. I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong if you can do that. Hopefully I'll still be here on TWTD in the next 5 years, so if it happens I'll hold my hands up. Let's wait and see. But I couldn't let you keep bandying around that AI might already be conscious, or will be soon, without challenging it. My research shows the contrary.
[Post edited 25 Jun 12:26]
I can do that.
But the debate becomes when an AI neural network mirrors whatever definition of consciousness Annaka Harris defines, so well, that we have to say its effectively conscious.
Its about accepting that a neural network thinking and its output is equivalent to a humans and not just thinking because its not organic it cant be conscious.
GH says he is ambivalent currently about whether AI is conscious today. But these AIs are currently childlike models as we very quickly go to teenage and then adult versions. The timescales are a bit vague but people like the CEOs of these AIs are talking about exponential curves. Thats why Trump is backing all these huge infrastructure sites and power plants in the US because of the sheer power to run these things. And timescales are maybe 2 to 10 years. But they are much more imminent that it being sci fi in a distant future.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 11:49 - Jun 25 by NthQldITFC
I wonder if the word 'consciousness' is so difficult to define that it's not very useful in this kind of debate? I'm feeling concerned more about the capabilities of neural network-based AI, and whether or not actions which take advantage of those capabilities are triggered by any loosely defined consciousness, random experimental divergences within the AI, or human initiated triggers is not particularly definitive to the dangers perhaps?
thats the heart of it. You don't have to be happy that your definition of a non conscious AI model is correct, but still resolves to do something malevolent.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:22 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
I can do that.
But the debate becomes when an AI neural network mirrors whatever definition of consciousness Annaka Harris defines, so well, that we have to say its effectively conscious.
Its about accepting that a neural network thinking and its output is equivalent to a humans and not just thinking because its not organic it cant be conscious.
GH says he is ambivalent currently about whether AI is conscious today. But these AIs are currently childlike models as we very quickly go to teenage and then adult versions. The timescales are a bit vague but people like the CEOs of these AIs are talking about exponential curves. Thats why Trump is backing all these huge infrastructure sites and power plants in the US because of the sheer power to run these things. And timescales are maybe 2 to 10 years. But they are much more imminent that it being sci fi in a distant future.
[Post edited 25 Jun 12:24]
I've agreed the threat of unchecked AI is a real one. Your last bit there, from "The timescales..." onwards, I agree with in terms of threats to jobs and other things like cyber attacks... not to the threat of AI becoming conscious and deciding to take over the world. From my studies we are a long way off robots thinking equivalently to humans.
As I said, feel free to show me the evidence if it ever appears. Maybe we can come back to this debate on the 25th June each year and have a check in to see if AI is conscious yet!
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
-1
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:45 - Jun 25 with 302 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:14 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile
Saying it three times doesn't make it any more correct.
I'd ask you do some reading about consciousness (or listen to the excellent Spotify documentary Lights On: How Understanding Consciousness Helps Us Understand the Universe by Annaka Harris) but it sounds like you've already made your mind up.
Edit to respond to your edits: Yes, I am dismissing that machines will be conscious any time soon. From what I've read and watched from neuroscience experts it simply won't be.
The "leg to stand on" bit was nothing to do with consciousness, it was the straw men I said you'd built which you haven't responded to, suggesting I'm right.
I downvote stuff simply if I disagree with it. That shouldn't discourage you to engage, it should make you ask why I disagree and look into my reasoning for my views. You ask me to watch your videos, I respectfully ask you to do some research on consciousness (and have supplied some experts).
The only way we end this debate is if you can show me, soon, where a machine has become conscious. I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong if you can do that. Hopefully I'll still be here on TWTD in the next 5 years, so if it happens I'll hold my hands up. Let's wait and see. But I couldn't let you keep bandying around that AI might already be conscious, or will be soon, without challenging it. My research shows the contrary.
[Post edited 25 Jun 12:26]
Out of respect for your opinion I may look into that book.
If you use chatgpt or Gemini 2.5 say (I got a premium version for a year with my phone) I think you would be amazed by the quality of the research it does and the reports it can write. Even today it like having the worlds best expert using all the resources of the Internet to analyse the problem being set and then it comes up with really rational and well argued points. IT feels to me like Im talking to a person now.
All of this will always be digital. And people will argue as Sam Altman says at various points with new releases what constitutes emotions. As GH says, the fact AIs are already showing at times the need to defend themselves they are mimicking a defence emotion in the same way a human does, just without the physiological aspects. But that emotion is just as real and as valid as ours. Now he recognises that is not a truth universally held, but thats at this point in time in a rapidly changing landscape.
It's not me bandying around wild theories when im badly parroting the work of a noble prize winner.
What's equally as dangerous, if not more so, is people who don't fully understand this dismissing it as something as sci fi for the future.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:40 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile
I've agreed the threat of unchecked AI is a real one. Your last bit there, from "The timescales..." onwards, I agree with in terms of threats to jobs and other things like cyber attacks... not to the threat of AI becoming conscious and deciding to take over the world. From my studies we are a long way off robots thinking equivalently to humans.
As I said, feel free to show me the evidence if it ever appears. Maybe we can come back to this debate on the 25th June each year and have a check in to see if AI is conscious yet!
So you may not have read all this thread. But Elon musk and GH put a rough 10 to 20 percent risk of AI killing us in the next 20 years. As we have also said, you can say that is a non thinking, non conscious AI doing that if you wish.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:50 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
So you may not have read all this thread. But Elon musk and GH put a rough 10 to 20 percent risk of AI killing us in the next 20 years. As we have also said, you can say that is a non thinking, non conscious AI doing that if you wish.
Stephen Hawking also had concerns about AI
"The emergence of AI could be the "worst event in the history of our civilization..."
But hey some random guys on TWTD know better I suppose.
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:40 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile
I've agreed the threat of unchecked AI is a real one. Your last bit there, from "The timescales..." onwards, I agree with in terms of threats to jobs and other things like cyber attacks... not to the threat of AI becoming conscious and deciding to take over the world. From my studies we are a long way off robots thinking equivalently to humans.
As I said, feel free to show me the evidence if it ever appears. Maybe we can come back to this debate on the 25th June each year and have a check in to see if AI is conscious yet!
Oh look, here comes blueas to downvote everything I post without comment. Once a prick always a prick.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:56 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile
Oh look, here comes blueas to downvote everything I post without comment. Once a prick always a prick.
Ironic coming from Capt Downvote himself lol. The poster you're arguing with even asked you to stop doing it. Don't like it when it's not you doing the constant downvoting huh?
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 16:23 - Jun 16 by Wacko
As a filmmaker, I 100% disagree. It's the same way that people still buy bespoke furniture when there's an IKEA next door
Honestly, as a writer, I think that's hopeful and a bit naive.
Take writing as an example. Journalism mostly, but we could probably expand the definition.
It's so much worse than it used to be. Appalling writing, by kids fresh from school/Uni with no experience, writing at the biggest newspapers and magazines in the country (the ones that are still left, at least).
There's precious little longform writing any more, and it's effectively worthless: Newspapers don't really sell, they rely on ads online, which means they'd rather you read a two minute, crap article plastered with ads than something that might inform or entertain you. There's very little profit in producing really great journalism any more. Just get you in, show your eyes a couple of ads and then if you're disappointed that the article didn't live up to the headline, who cares?
Do the people notice? No! They might complain about it from time to time, but hardly anyone kicks back by going out and subscribing to pay for a magazine or newspaper.
Same goes with music. I want artists to be paid and I believe in creativity as a job. But why pay for it when it's on Spotify?
People get dumbed down easily. They get used to what they're given. I've no doubt films will go that way too. I mean, are the biggest films/franchises (in terms of sales) really the best examples of filmmaking these days? You'd be better place to answer that as a film maker, but I'd argue they're not...
AI is a race to the bottom. All it does is allow employees to do 10x the work. Do they get paid more? No. Do they have more time off? No. Do they create more profit? Yep.
Why people are so supportive of it is beyond me. I don't particularly want to be able to do 10x the work I do now, for the same money.
3
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:01 - Jun 25 with 249 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:45 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
Out of respect for your opinion I may look into that book.
If you use chatgpt or Gemini 2.5 say (I got a premium version for a year with my phone) I think you would be amazed by the quality of the research it does and the reports it can write. Even today it like having the worlds best expert using all the resources of the Internet to analyse the problem being set and then it comes up with really rational and well argued points. IT feels to me like Im talking to a person now.
All of this will always be digital. And people will argue as Sam Altman says at various points with new releases what constitutes emotions. As GH says, the fact AIs are already showing at times the need to defend themselves they are mimicking a defence emotion in the same way a human does, just without the physiological aspects. But that emotion is just as real and as valid as ours. Now he recognises that is not a truth universally held, but thats at this point in time in a rapidly changing landscape.
It's not me bandying around wild theories when im badly parroting the work of a noble prize winner.
What's equally as dangerous, if not more so, is people who don't fully understand this dismissing it as something as sci fi for the future.
[Post edited 25 Jun 12:46]
Again you're putting up straw men. I haven't said chatgpt or Gemini 2.5 aren't impressive. I haven't said it doesn't feeling like you're talking to a person. I haven't said they aren't very good at mimicking humans.
I'm simply saying they aren't conscious and they're a long way off being conscious.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
0
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:04 - Jun 25 with 241 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:57 - Jun 25 by blueasfook
Ironic coming from Capt Downvote himself lol. The poster you're arguing with even asked you to stop doing it. Don't like it when it's not you doing the constant downvoting huh?
I'm happy for people to downvote if they simply disagree in an adult discussion. You've simply come along and before making any comments have just downarrowed everything I've said. Just because it's me, and just because you're a prick.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
-1
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:06 - Jun 25 with 232 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:02 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile
Again you're putting up straw men. I haven't said chatgpt or Gemini 2.5 aren't impressive. I haven't said it doesn't feeling like you're talking to a person. I haven't said they aren't very good at mimicking humans.
I'm simply saying they aren't conscious and they're a long way off being conscious.
ok and go the next step and tell me why they aren't conscious and they are a long way off.
whatever answer you give I will feed into gemini and ask for its opinion out of interest and post back.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 12:50 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
So you may not have read all this thread. But Elon musk and GH put a rough 10 to 20 percent risk of AI killing us in the next 20 years. As we have also said, you can say that is a non thinking, non conscious AI doing that if you wish.
Again, I've not argued against any of this. And I haven't said anything about 20 years from now.
Getting bored of the straw men, frankly, so I'll leave it there.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
0
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:10 - Jun 25 with 218 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:06 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
ok and go the next step and tell me why they aren't conscious and they are a long way off.
whatever answer you give I will feed into gemini and ask for its opinion out of interest and post back.
[Post edited 25 Jun 13:08]
I've read several books and watched and listened to several documentaries from neuroscientists and other experts to come to this conclusion, I can't distil all that into a TWTD post!
And the burden of proof is on you if you're asserting that they're conscious, not me somehow proving that they're not.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
0
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:11 - Jun 25 with 211 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:00 - Jun 25 by glasso
Honestly, as a writer, I think that's hopeful and a bit naive.
Take writing as an example. Journalism mostly, but we could probably expand the definition.
It's so much worse than it used to be. Appalling writing, by kids fresh from school/Uni with no experience, writing at the biggest newspapers and magazines in the country (the ones that are still left, at least).
There's precious little longform writing any more, and it's effectively worthless: Newspapers don't really sell, they rely on ads online, which means they'd rather you read a two minute, crap article plastered with ads than something that might inform or entertain you. There's very little profit in producing really great journalism any more. Just get you in, show your eyes a couple of ads and then if you're disappointed that the article didn't live up to the headline, who cares?
Do the people notice? No! They might complain about it from time to time, but hardly anyone kicks back by going out and subscribing to pay for a magazine or newspaper.
Same goes with music. I want artists to be paid and I believe in creativity as a job. But why pay for it when it's on Spotify?
People get dumbed down easily. They get used to what they're given. I've no doubt films will go that way too. I mean, are the biggest films/franchises (in terms of sales) really the best examples of filmmaking these days? You'd be better place to answer that as a film maker, but I'd argue they're not...
AI is a race to the bottom. All it does is allow employees to do 10x the work. Do they get paid more? No. Do they have more time off? No. Do they create more profit? Yep.
Why people are so supportive of it is beyond me. I don't particularly want to be able to do 10x the work I do now, for the same money.
I had a brief chat with our local feature film maker about the Mathieu Kassovitz opinion on Sunday. He agrees with it somewhat but still feels that a space will exist for adventurous cinema. So the people working on the Marvel superheroes films should be worried about their jobs but my question to him about whether AI could ever make something like a Terrence Malick film echoed my own doubtful view.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:10 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile
I've read several books and watched and listened to several documentaries from neuroscientists and other experts to come to this conclusion, I can't distil all that into a TWTD post!
And the burden of proof is on you if you're asserting that they're conscious, not me somehow proving that they're not.
I haven't asserted they are conscious. I have said there are serious noble prize winners who would debate that they are now and almost the whole AI industry saying that we are moving to a position where we may reach a tipping point and the majority of people feel they are displaying emotions and consciousness.
All you do is just dismiss it all and say its for the future and then don't back that up. Give me a few paragraphs on it.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:16 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
Getting bored of the straw men. You are obsessed with straw men lol.
I know thats an analogy for a debating point but isn't that the essence of debate where the "result" isn't yet known?
The whole AI future is one big straw man.
I'm not the one obsessed with straw men, you're the one who keeps posting them!
Forgive me, I assumed most people knew what a straw man argument was. It's basically accusing someone of having a particular view that you can easily refute, even though they never actually had that view. Or it's a tweaking of their view to make it easier to defeat (in the analogy, blow down, like a straw man).
A simple example would be me saying I don't like your dog, because it bit me, and then you telling everyone I'm a bad person because I don't like dogs.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
0
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:29 - Jun 25 with 161 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:11 - Jun 25 by WeWereZombies
I had a brief chat with our local feature film maker about the Mathieu Kassovitz opinion on Sunday. He agrees with it somewhat but still feels that a space will exist for adventurous cinema. So the people working on the Marvel superheroes films should be worried about their jobs but my question to him about whether AI could ever make something like a Terrence Malick film echoed my own doubtful view.
Yeah sorry I should probably clarify that I don't think film making (or GOOD film making) would ever be entirely wiped out - just as in my example, there *is* still good journalism/writing out there. The issue is whether it'll be a career any more.
There was a time when good writers were well paid. Then there was a time when good writers had to churn out some s**t they weren't proud of to pay the bills while they were criminally underpaid for their good writing, and now I know loads of really, really great writers who are living on the breadline because nothing pays well any more.
I suspect it'll be the same for films. You'll be able to make great films, if you're somehow rich enough to do it as a hobby or a very badly paid job.
I think it's the same for most of us when it comes to AI. My job will still exist, but it'll be massively under-respected and underpaid because they could just ask a computer to do it. Where do we go from there? I'd make a really s**t plumber.
2
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:31 - Jun 25 with 162 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:18 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
I haven't asserted they are conscious. I have said there are serious noble prize winners who would debate that they are now and almost the whole AI industry saying that we are moving to a position where we may reach a tipping point and the majority of people feel they are displaying emotions and consciousness.
All you do is just dismiss it all and say its for the future and then don't back that up. Give me a few paragraphs on it.
[Post edited 25 Jun 13:20]
You've not asserted they are conscious, but you're saying you believe people who are saying they are conscious?!? That amounts to the same thing, doesn't it??
Also, where's this bit where serious noble prize winners are debating that they are (conscious) now? Is that in one of your videos, they're actually stating AI is now conscious?!
I've given you several authors to read. I've told you a documentary on Spotify. I don't know how you expect me to get paragraphs from those and post them here. You can easily go on Spotify (if you have it) and paste in the title of Anneka Harris's documentary, how much time do you think I have to be typing out excerpts of it for you?
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
0
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:47 - Jun 25 with 137 views
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:31 - Jun 25 by The_Flashing_Smile
You've not asserted they are conscious, but you're saying you believe people who are saying they are conscious?!? That amounts to the same thing, doesn't it??
Also, where's this bit where serious noble prize winners are debating that they are (conscious) now? Is that in one of your videos, they're actually stating AI is now conscious?!
I've given you several authors to read. I've told you a documentary on Spotify. I don't know how you expect me to get paragraphs from those and post them here. You can easily go on Spotify (if you have it) and paste in the title of Anneka Harris's documentary, how much time do you think I have to be typing out excerpts of it for you?
watch from the one hour mark for 10 minutes.
You will particularly like his sentences...
"people say machines cant have feelings. And people are curiously confident about that. I have no idea why."
Look I'm trying to stay polite with you. Rather than you saying go away and read stuff, im asking you to expand your argument as to why GH is wrong and say why AI isn't currently conscious/sentient/displaying emotions and why it won't for a long time.
AI enthusiasts: What do you make of Yoshua Bengio's interview? on 13:18 - Jun 25 by nodge_blue
I haven't asserted they are conscious. I have said there are serious noble prize winners who would debate that they are now and almost the whole AI industry saying that we are moving to a position where we may reach a tipping point and the majority of people feel they are displaying emotions and consciousness.
All you do is just dismiss it all and say its for the future and then don't back that up. Give me a few paragraphs on it.
[Post edited 25 Jun 13:20]
Are you eliding emotion and consciousness in this post ? They may be different things, in fact emotion could be many different things. We are slipping into the division between the material and the immaterial now, which some philosophers and scientists say does not exist. However consciousness has been difficult to capture and put in a jar of formaldehyde...
Measurement and determination are complex in most of science but still doable (ah. slight problem with linguistics in that last word) due to the scientific method, the periodic table, Mendel's work on genetics, relativity theory and so on. But the immaterial, where are the ground rules that guide us through this ?
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