| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska 20:42 - Aug 15 with 6778 views | ElderGrizzly |
While on a red carpet 🙄
They then drive off like best buddies in Trump’s car.
I don’t remember Zelensky getting such a warm welcome [Post edited 15 Aug 20:43]
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:38 - Aug 18 with 514 views | Radlett_blue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:04 - Aug 18 by Ryorry |
What I was saying is that you have no right whatsoever to surrender Ukraine on Ukrainians' behalf; nor give away any of their land against their will.
That's outrageously presumptious by you - no European leader has suggested it. Only Ukrainians can or should make that decision. |
If Ukraine isn't going to concede territory, a calamitous war - which they are losing - will continue. Putin isn't going to fold his tents and walk away with nothing. So the Ukrainians don't have many bargaining chips, as neither Europe nor the USA are going to start a war with Russia over this. And Putin knows this. What you may think about the morality of this is irrelevant to the reality. |  |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 15:37 - Aug 18 with 467 views | iamatractorboy |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 12:17 - Aug 18 by lowhouseblue |
but you're still not engaging with what i've posted. you can't meaningfully assess the morality of any voter without really understanding why they voted how they did. just imposing your own rationale on them ends up as name calling. their morality may be just as strong as yours even though they have different political views and values and see political trade offs and priorities differently. |
I am engaging! You're either not understanding what I am saying, or are being obtuse (I will give you the benefit of the doubt because maybe I haven't been clear enough). I have stated that in my opinion, voting for Trump is unforgivable. Across the line and a bad thing to do without mitigation. That's it. The scope of my argument/view has not gone as far as talking about engaging with Trump supporters
I am saying they are bad people by virtue of voting for him.
Edit: below is probably not relevant to what you put - sorry.
I'm not talking about practical/pragmatic means of changing their minds (I'm certain many are lost already and if he literally murdered someone on live Fox News they would still cheer for him). That is another issue and I really can't be bothered to start opening that can of worms on here. [Post edited 18 Aug 15:50]
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:12 - Aug 18 with 428 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 15:37 - Aug 18 by iamatractorboy |
I am engaging! You're either not understanding what I am saying, or are being obtuse (I will give you the benefit of the doubt because maybe I haven't been clear enough). I have stated that in my opinion, voting for Trump is unforgivable. Across the line and a bad thing to do without mitigation. That's it. The scope of my argument/view has not gone as far as talking about engaging with Trump supporters
I am saying they are bad people by virtue of voting for him.
Edit: below is probably not relevant to what you put - sorry.
I'm not talking about practical/pragmatic means of changing their minds (I'm certain many are lost already and if he literally murdered someone on live Fox News they would still cheer for him). That is another issue and I really can't be bothered to start opening that can of worms on here. [Post edited 18 Aug 15:50]
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You can disagree with their voting intentions, but you can't say 77 milion US citizens are bad people without knowing them. It is absurd. | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:55 - Aug 18 with 402 views | DJR |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:12 - Aug 18 by mellowblue |
You can disagree with their voting intentions, but you can't say 77 milion US citizens are bad people without knowing them. It is absurd. |
“It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.”
Oscar Wilde |  | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:56 - Aug 18 with 401 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 12:06 - Aug 18 by Whos_blue |
Odds on Trump throwing Zelensky under the bus today?
The lunatic's socials already laying the foundations.
I think the well meaning coalition of the willing know this, hence their joint visit to the White House in support of Zelensky.
And what of Trumps promised additional sanctions on Russia?
TACO strikes again.
F@cking charlatan. |
Crazy amount of pressure on Zelensky now with the socials and continual shifting goal posts. If he agrees any deal the accusation will be that he has grown weak and buckled under pressure. Really not the way to prepare groundwork for a deal. Z will not be able to take any deal back to his people and he will be accused of not wanting peace. Trump and Pootin will portray themselves as the peacemakers and Z as a warmonger. You can see it coming from a mile. He has already ruled out security guarantees with any form of NATO membership so what carrot is there for Z? None | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 17:16 - Aug 18 with 377 views | Whos_blue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:38 - Aug 18 by Radlett_blue |
If Ukraine isn't going to concede territory, a calamitous war - which they are losing - will continue. Putin isn't going to fold his tents and walk away with nothing. So the Ukrainians don't have many bargaining chips, as neither Europe nor the USA are going to start a war with Russia over this. And Putin knows this. What you may think about the morality of this is irrelevant to the reality. |
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on a credible solution Radders.
I've read with interest what you've said won't work but I haven't seen too much about what you think will.
It seems you may be suggesting there is no credible or likely way out of this for Ukraine without conceding land currently illegally occupied by Russia, but would be good to know how you think that might work if constitutionally Ukraine cannot currently implement that even if they wanted to.
Change their constitution? |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 19:44 - Aug 18 with 327 views | Ryorry |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:38 - Aug 18 by Radlett_blue |
If Ukraine isn't going to concede territory, a calamitous war - which they are losing - will continue. Putin isn't going to fold his tents and walk away with nothing. So the Ukrainians don't have many bargaining chips, as neither Europe nor the USA are going to start a war with Russia over this. And Putin knows this. What you may think about the morality of this is irrelevant to the reality. |
“What you may think about the morality of this is irrelevant to the reality”.
I agree - that was exactly my point - it’s not my shout, or MellowBlue’s, whose presumptiousness it was in saying “this will have to be accepted” that I was objecting to. |  |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 20:30 - Aug 18 with 267 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:04 - Aug 18 by Ryorry |
What I was saying is that you have no right whatsoever to surrender Ukraine on Ukrainians' behalf; nor give away any of their land against their will.
That's outrageously presumptious by you - no European leader has suggested it. Only Ukrainians can or should make that decision. |
Presumptuous. Don't know. Believe me, my head is not so big that I wish to foist my will on the Ukrainian people.
I probably phrased it badly. Grammatically I should have said would, rather than will. An extension of the theory that if there is to be a peace treaty it would end up being on terms that would favour Moscow as they have the upper hand on the battlefield and do not need to come to terms. And that would have to be accepted by the Ukrainian people.Meaning Zelensky would need to put it to his people. His executive powers do not extend as far as to make a binding decision, I believe he needs a mandate from the people, As you say that decision is in their hands,
At least the meeting today went better than the last one in the Oval Office. Hopefully something positive might come out of it. [Post edited 18 Aug 20:56]
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 22:10 - Aug 18 with 217 views | Radlett_blue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 17:16 - Aug 18 by Whos_blue |
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on a credible solution Radders.
I've read with interest what you've said won't work but I haven't seen too much about what you think will.
It seems you may be suggesting there is no credible or likely way out of this for Ukraine without conceding land currently illegally occupied by Russia, but would be good to know how you think that might work if constitutionally Ukraine cannot currently implement that even if they wanted to.
Change their constitution? |
Ukraine doesn't have any choice, unless they think continuing an awful war that looks totally unwinnable is preferable. Yes, I'm aware that constitutionally they cannot concede land, so they need their own Boris Johnson to prorogue the Ukrainian Parliament. | |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:30 - Aug 19 with 124 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 22:10 - Aug 18 by Radlett_blue |
Ukraine doesn't have any choice, unless they think continuing an awful war that looks totally unwinnable is preferable. Yes, I'm aware that constitutionally they cannot concede land, so they need their own Boris Johnson to prorogue the Ukrainian Parliament. |
We can at least agree that there is no solution where everyone gets what they want, if they want to end the war. One side or other would need to massively compromise and it would probably be career-ending for either Putin or Zelensky depending who has to compromise and take the bad news back home. A tripping point is the subject of security guarantees and whether they would be worth the paper they will be written on. You would forgive the Ukrainians for being sceptical when Trump flip flops so much. | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:53 - Aug 19 with 82 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:30 - Aug 19 by mellowblue |
We can at least agree that there is no solution where everyone gets what they want, if they want to end the war. One side or other would need to massively compromise and it would probably be career-ending for either Putin or Zelensky depending who has to compromise and take the bad news back home. A tripping point is the subject of security guarantees and whether they would be worth the paper they will be written on. You would forgive the Ukrainians for being sceptical when Trump flip flops so much. |
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in return sovereignty was guaranteed by, amongst others, UK & USA. Fat lot of good it has done them.
Should Russia gain the whole of Donbas then it would be difficult for Ukraine to withstand Russian aggression next time around, |  |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 12:15 - Aug 19 with 52 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:53 - Aug 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in return sovereignty was guaranteed by, amongst others, UK & USA. Fat lot of good it has done them.
Should Russia gain the whole of Donbas then it would be difficult for Ukraine to withstand Russian aggression next time around, |
Agree, Ukraine needs to keep hold of the part of Donbas they still hold, high ground and impregnable so far. | | | |
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