| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska 20:42 - Aug 15 with 7878 views | ElderGrizzly |
While on a red carpet 🙄
They then drive off like best buddies in Trump’s car.
I don’t remember Zelensky getting such a warm welcome [Post edited 15 Aug 20:43]
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:38 - Aug 18 with 972 views | Radlett_blue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:04 - Aug 18 by Ryorry |
What I was saying is that you have no right whatsoever to surrender Ukraine on Ukrainians' behalf; nor give away any of their land against their will.
That's outrageously presumptious by you - no European leader has suggested it. Only Ukrainians can or should make that decision. |
If Ukraine isn't going to concede territory, a calamitous war - which they are losing - will continue. Putin isn't going to fold his tents and walk away with nothing. So the Ukrainians don't have many bargaining chips, as neither Europe nor the USA are going to start a war with Russia over this. And Putin knows this. What you may think about the morality of this is irrelevant to the reality. |  |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 15:37 - Aug 18 with 925 views | iamatractorboy |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 12:17 - Aug 18 by lowhouseblue |
but you're still not engaging with what i've posted. you can't meaningfully assess the morality of any voter without really understanding why they voted how they did. just imposing your own rationale on them ends up as name calling. their morality may be just as strong as yours even though they have different political views and values and see political trade offs and priorities differently. |
I am engaging! You're either not understanding what I am saying, or are being obtuse (I will give you the benefit of the doubt because maybe I haven't been clear enough). I have stated that in my opinion, voting for Trump is unforgivable. Across the line and a bad thing to do without mitigation. That's it. The scope of my argument/view has not gone as far as talking about engaging with Trump supporters
I am saying they are bad people by virtue of voting for him.
Edit: below is probably not relevant to what you put - sorry.
I'm not talking about practical/pragmatic means of changing their minds (I'm certain many are lost already and if he literally murdered someone on live Fox News they would still cheer for him). That is another issue and I really can't be bothered to start opening that can of worms on here. [Post edited 18 Aug 15:50]
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:12 - Aug 18 with 886 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 15:37 - Aug 18 by iamatractorboy |
I am engaging! You're either not understanding what I am saying, or are being obtuse (I will give you the benefit of the doubt because maybe I haven't been clear enough). I have stated that in my opinion, voting for Trump is unforgivable. Across the line and a bad thing to do without mitigation. That's it. The scope of my argument/view has not gone as far as talking about engaging with Trump supporters
I am saying they are bad people by virtue of voting for him.
Edit: below is probably not relevant to what you put - sorry.
I'm not talking about practical/pragmatic means of changing their minds (I'm certain many are lost already and if he literally murdered someone on live Fox News they would still cheer for him). That is another issue and I really can't be bothered to start opening that can of worms on here. [Post edited 18 Aug 15:50]
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You can disagree with their voting intentions, but you can't say 77 milion US citizens are bad people without knowing them. It is absurd. | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:55 - Aug 18 with 860 views | DJR |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:12 - Aug 18 by mellowblue |
You can disagree with their voting intentions, but you can't say 77 milion US citizens are bad people without knowing them. It is absurd. |
“It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.”
Oscar Wilde |  | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:56 - Aug 18 with 860 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 12:06 - Aug 18 by Whos_blue |
Odds on Trump throwing Zelensky under the bus today?
The lunatic's socials already laying the foundations.
I think the well meaning coalition of the willing know this, hence their joint visit to the White House in support of Zelensky.
And what of Trumps promised additional sanctions on Russia?
TACO strikes again.
F@cking charlatan. |
Crazy amount of pressure on Zelensky now with the socials and continual shifting goal posts. If he agrees any deal the accusation will be that he has grown weak and buckled under pressure. Really not the way to prepare groundwork for a deal. Z will not be able to take any deal back to his people and he will be accused of not wanting peace. Trump and Pootin will portray themselves as the peacemakers and Z as a warmonger. You can see it coming from a mile. He has already ruled out security guarantees with any form of NATO membership so what carrot is there for Z? None | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 17:16 - Aug 18 with 835 views | Whos_blue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:38 - Aug 18 by Radlett_blue |
If Ukraine isn't going to concede territory, a calamitous war - which they are losing - will continue. Putin isn't going to fold his tents and walk away with nothing. So the Ukrainians don't have many bargaining chips, as neither Europe nor the USA are going to start a war with Russia over this. And Putin knows this. What you may think about the morality of this is irrelevant to the reality. |
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on a credible solution Radders.
I've read with interest what you've said won't work but I haven't seen too much about what you think will.
It seems you may be suggesting there is no credible or likely way out of this for Ukraine without conceding land currently illegally occupied by Russia, but would be good to know how you think that might work if constitutionally Ukraine cannot currently implement that even if they wanted to.
Change their constitution? |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 19:44 - Aug 18 with 785 views | Ryorry |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:38 - Aug 18 by Radlett_blue |
If Ukraine isn't going to concede territory, a calamitous war - which they are losing - will continue. Putin isn't going to fold his tents and walk away with nothing. So the Ukrainians don't have many bargaining chips, as neither Europe nor the USA are going to start a war with Russia over this. And Putin knows this. What you may think about the morality of this is irrelevant to the reality. |
“What you may think about the morality of this is irrelevant to the reality”.
I agree - that was exactly my point - it’s not my shout, or MellowBlue’s, whose presumptiousness it was in saying “this will have to be accepted” that I was objecting to. |  |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 20:30 - Aug 18 with 725 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 14:04 - Aug 18 by Ryorry |
What I was saying is that you have no right whatsoever to surrender Ukraine on Ukrainians' behalf; nor give away any of their land against their will.
That's outrageously presumptious by you - no European leader has suggested it. Only Ukrainians can or should make that decision. |
Presumptuous. Don't know. Believe me, my head is not so big that I wish to foist my will on the Ukrainian people.
I probably phrased it badly. Grammatically I should have said would, rather than will. An extension of the theory that if there is to be a peace treaty it would end up being on terms that would favour Moscow as they have the upper hand on the battlefield and do not need to come to terms. And that would have to be accepted by the Ukrainian people.Meaning Zelensky would need to put it to his people. His executive powers do not extend as far as to make a binding decision, I believe he needs a mandate from the people, As you say that decision is in their hands,
At least the meeting today went better than the last one in the Oval Office. Hopefully something positive might come out of it. [Post edited 18 Aug 20:56]
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 22:10 - Aug 18 with 675 views | Radlett_blue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 17:16 - Aug 18 by Whos_blue |
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on a credible solution Radders.
I've read with interest what you've said won't work but I haven't seen too much about what you think will.
It seems you may be suggesting there is no credible or likely way out of this for Ukraine without conceding land currently illegally occupied by Russia, but would be good to know how you think that might work if constitutionally Ukraine cannot currently implement that even if they wanted to.
Change their constitution? |
Ukraine doesn't have any choice, unless they think continuing an awful war that looks totally unwinnable is preferable. Yes, I'm aware that constitutionally they cannot concede land, so they need their own Boris Johnson to prorogue the Ukrainian Parliament. | |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:30 - Aug 19 with 582 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 22:10 - Aug 18 by Radlett_blue |
Ukraine doesn't have any choice, unless they think continuing an awful war that looks totally unwinnable is preferable. Yes, I'm aware that constitutionally they cannot concede land, so they need their own Boris Johnson to prorogue the Ukrainian Parliament. |
We can at least agree that there is no solution where everyone gets what they want, if they want to end the war. One side or other would need to massively compromise and it would probably be career-ending for either Putin or Zelensky depending who has to compromise and take the bad news back home. A tripping point is the subject of security guarantees and whether they would be worth the paper they will be written on. You would forgive the Ukrainians for being sceptical when Trump flip flops so much. | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:53 - Aug 19 with 540 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:30 - Aug 19 by mellowblue |
We can at least agree that there is no solution where everyone gets what they want, if they want to end the war. One side or other would need to massively compromise and it would probably be career-ending for either Putin or Zelensky depending who has to compromise and take the bad news back home. A tripping point is the subject of security guarantees and whether they would be worth the paper they will be written on. You would forgive the Ukrainians for being sceptical when Trump flip flops so much. |
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in return sovereignty was guaranteed by, amongst others, UK & USA. Fat lot of good it has done them.
Should Russia gain the whole of Donbas then it would be difficult for Ukraine to withstand Russian aggression next time around, |  |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 12:15 - Aug 19 with 510 views | mellowblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:53 - Aug 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in return sovereignty was guaranteed by, amongst others, UK & USA. Fat lot of good it has done them.
Should Russia gain the whole of Donbas then it would be difficult for Ukraine to withstand Russian aggression next time around, |
Agree, Ukraine needs to keep hold of the part of Donbas they still hold, high ground and impregnable so far. | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 09:32 - Aug 21 with 360 views | Ryorry |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 13:56 - Aug 18 by mellowblue |
Stick by it, if you think Ukraine can win this, I will be VERY happy to be wrong. Generally in wars WW11 a notable exception, wars aren't fought to to complete triumph/ surrender. Deals are made to save face, to save an eventual save need to surrender, but in those circumstance the country doing worse makes concessions. It has happened countless times in history. Sometimes the peace treaties work e.g WW1 though the terms insisted on ultimately led to ww11, Sometimes they don't e.g The Treaty of Amiens 1802 or 3 between us and Napoleonic France. And none insist on the word surrender. But if you want it to continue with Ukraine slowly haemorrhaging land and lives, well okay. Peace treaty is a legal norm and is the recognized name for such an agreement between two countries. It is not a word I am using in a descriptive nature. It might not lead to eternal peace. Have you a solution? If a peace treaty happens with the expected concessions and let's face it, it is unlikely, history will deem Putin the winner. |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 09:36 - Aug 21 with 359 views | Ryorry |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 13:56 - Aug 18 by mellowblue |
Stick by it, if you think Ukraine can win this, I will be VERY happy to be wrong. Generally in wars WW11 a notable exception, wars aren't fought to to complete triumph/ surrender. Deals are made to save face, to save an eventual save need to surrender, but in those circumstance the country doing worse makes concessions. It has happened countless times in history. Sometimes the peace treaties work e.g WW1 though the terms insisted on ultimately led to ww11, Sometimes they don't e.g The Treaty of Amiens 1802 or 3 between us and Napoleonic France. And none insist on the word surrender. But if you want it to continue with Ukraine slowly haemorrhaging land and lives, well okay. Peace treaty is a legal norm and is the recognized name for such an agreement between two countries. It is not a word I am using in a descriptive nature. It might not lead to eternal peace. Have you a solution? If a peace treaty happens with the expected concessions and let's face it, it is unlikely, history will deem Putin the winner. |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 09:56 - Aug 21 with 307 views | iamatractorboy |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 16:12 - Aug 18 by mellowblue |
You can disagree with their voting intentions, but you can't say 77 milion US citizens are bad people without knowing them. It is absurd. |
And I'm saying they are bad precisely because they voted for him. They knew what they were getting. And they like it. I don't understand why it's so hard to get this. They are bad because they voted for him. That's it. | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:08 - Aug 21 with 282 views | Radlett_blue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:53 - Aug 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in return sovereignty was guaranteed by, amongst others, UK & USA. Fat lot of good it has done them.
Should Russia gain the whole of Donbas then it would be difficult for Ukraine to withstand Russian aggression next time around, |
Yes, I think the Ukrainians realise that their future security is probably the #1 issue. The long term threat from Putin (or his successor) wanting to keep recreating the Soviet style empire will still be there, but how much faith can they put in guarantees from Trump or European politicians? Ukraine originally tried to be a neutral state, but understandably it later saw joining with NATO as the best means of securing its borders. This is a red rag to Putin & Trump also opposes it so it's not going to happen any time soon. | |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:34 - Aug 21 with 234 views | lowhouseblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 09:56 - Aug 21 by iamatractorboy |
And I'm saying they are bad precisely because they voted for him. They knew what they were getting. And they like it. I don't understand why it's so hard to get this. They are bad because they voted for him. That's it. |
so, amongst the reported opinions* of people who voted for trump are:
that the democrats had failed to protect them from a cost of living crisis that had made them poorer - in the past 4 years the economy had failed them;
that the democrats had failed to control immigration which was now out of control;
that over decades they had been economically failed by globalisation which had reduced good blue collar jobs in america and replaced them with imports;
that they no longer trusted the democrats and saw them as elitist, corrupt, self-serving, benefitting from globalisation, not sharing their values, and that they had lied about and concealed biden's fitness.
you undoubtedly disagree with those views - but are people really 'bad' if the cast their votes focusing on the basis of those opinions and priorities? why do you need to conflate political disagreement with morality? the things i have listed can be debated and challenged - but why do you need to write people off because they have different views and priorities from you?
* these are not my views. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:53 - Aug 21 with 188 views | Radlett_blue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:34 - Aug 21 by lowhouseblue |
so, amongst the reported opinions* of people who voted for trump are:
that the democrats had failed to protect them from a cost of living crisis that had made them poorer - in the past 4 years the economy had failed them;
that the democrats had failed to control immigration which was now out of control;
that over decades they had been economically failed by globalisation which had reduced good blue collar jobs in america and replaced them with imports;
that they no longer trusted the democrats and saw them as elitist, corrupt, self-serving, benefitting from globalisation, not sharing their values, and that they had lied about and concealed biden's fitness.
you undoubtedly disagree with those views - but are people really 'bad' if the cast their votes focusing on the basis of those opinions and priorities? why do you need to conflate political disagreement with morality? the things i have listed can be debated and challenged - but why do you need to write people off because they have different views and priorities from you?
* these are not my views. |
Exactly. In the USA, the lives of most ordinary people haven't got much better for a long time & it's understandable that many of them felt they had little to lose by rolling the dice & electing a non-politician like Trump., although I doubt he has many answers. Much the same is going in in Western Europe, especially Britain with the huge rise in support for Reform. Apparently, many of their supporters know that their sums don't add up, but they're happy to take a chance, helped by the touchstone of uncontrolled small boat immigration, which they see as a great example of how both of the 2 main UK parties bluster, but don't have any answers. | |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:21 - Aug 21 with 141 views | iamatractorboy |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 10:34 - Aug 21 by lowhouseblue |
so, amongst the reported opinions* of people who voted for trump are:
that the democrats had failed to protect them from a cost of living crisis that had made them poorer - in the past 4 years the economy had failed them;
that the democrats had failed to control immigration which was now out of control;
that over decades they had been economically failed by globalisation which had reduced good blue collar jobs in america and replaced them with imports;
that they no longer trusted the democrats and saw them as elitist, corrupt, self-serving, benefitting from globalisation, not sharing their values, and that they had lied about and concealed biden's fitness.
you undoubtedly disagree with those views - but are people really 'bad' if the cast their votes focusing on the basis of those opinions and priorities? why do you need to conflate political disagreement with morality? the things i have listed can be debated and challenged - but why do you need to write people off because they have different views and priorities from you?
* these are not my views. |
So, if you're not happy, it's morally acceptable to vote for someone you know is going to bring immense misery to millions of other people, because I'm alright Jack? Is that it? I'm not going to get into the argument over Democrats vs Republicans in terms of making people's lives better because frankly I am losing the will with this thread. | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:31 - Aug 21 with 122 views | lowhouseblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:21 - Aug 21 by iamatractorboy |
So, if you're not happy, it's morally acceptable to vote for someone you know is going to bring immense misery to millions of other people, because I'm alright Jack? Is that it? I'm not going to get into the argument over Democrats vs Republicans in terms of making people's lives better because frankly I am losing the will with this thread. |
people hold different views from you. it's how democracy works - it's how we collectively negotiate conflicts, trade offs and difficult choices. it's called politics. it seems that your view of such trade offs is the only one that can ever be legitimately or morally held.
i'm starting to wonder whether religion might be more of your thing rather than politics. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:46 - Aug 21 with 94 views | iamatractorboy |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:31 - Aug 21 by lowhouseblue |
people hold different views from you. it's how democracy works - it's how we collectively negotiate conflicts, trade offs and difficult choices. it's called politics. it seems that your view of such trade offs is the only one that can ever be legitimately or morally held.
i'm starting to wonder whether religion might be more of your thing rather than politics. |
I've already been over this with you. And earlier in the thread, you agreed that voting for a (hypothetical) nazi would be immoral. I explained that my moral line is well short of a nazi (time will tell just how bad Trump and his lot get though so it may no longer be hypothetical). Therefore, voting for him is immoral. You can disagree with where the line is, obviously, but you agreed with my logic that there IS a line. | | | |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:59 - Aug 21 with 68 views | lowhouseblue |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:46 - Aug 21 by iamatractorboy |
I've already been over this with you. And earlier in the thread, you agreed that voting for a (hypothetical) nazi would be immoral. I explained that my moral line is well short of a nazi (time will tell just how bad Trump and his lot get though so it may no longer be hypothetical). Therefore, voting for him is immoral. You can disagree with where the line is, obviously, but you agreed with my logic that there IS a line. |
if you draw your line so as to other 77 million people, and label them all as 'bad', 'immoral', 'morally reprehensible', 'uninformed' etc etc then that is intolerant and lacking in empathy. religious fundamentalists are less closed minded. but we're clearly not going anywhere with this, so back to all the dramatic and fast moving transfer news. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 12:22 - Aug 21 with 34 views | iamatractorboy |
| Clapping Putin as he arrives in Alaska on 11:59 - Aug 21 by lowhouseblue |
if you draw your line so as to other 77 million people, and label them all as 'bad', 'immoral', 'morally reprehensible', 'uninformed' etc etc then that is intolerant and lacking in empathy. religious fundamentalists are less closed minded. but we're clearly not going anywhere with this, so back to all the dramatic and fast moving transfer news. |
Finally something we agree on. No not the close minded thing, the transfer news. Hey at least we kept it cordial!! | | | |
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