| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. 16:47 - Sep 16 with 4596 views | noggin |
Brace yourselves for the “We can’t afford it” overreaction. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:42 - Sep 17 with 595 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:28 - Sep 17 by Churchman |
The economy is £3.5tn. We can afford it. U.K. state pension provision is about the worst of all western countries, by a large margin with most of them. They can afford it, why can’t we? I believe it’s more to do with how the government view pensioners, especially ones that have paid in all their lives.
This government sees pensioners as useless mouths that largely don’t vote for them so they, like farmers and certain other sections of our society are fair game - wring out the old codgers - they are a drain on ‘the hard working tax payer’, cluttering hospital beds and surgeries. Just look at Reeves’ spiteful winter fuel nonsense. It was never going to save much money. All it was going to do was create further hardship amongst the poorest. It certainly told us all we needed to know about how they saw pensioners.
But pensioners spend money in the economy. Take that out and it’s hardly going to help anyone. Many, like myself, pay taxes too. A lot of it.
We had best pension provision in the world back in the late 80s. It was a mix of final salary schemes, money purchase schemes, savings, assets and state provision. It broadly worked. Since then successive governments starting with the tories ‘pension holidays’ but especially Blair’s and his numbskull successors has seen pensions as a larder to raid. Pension provision now is a mess.
The triple lock? It was brought in to try and address the pathetic level of state pension provision and in that it’s been largely successful.
The idea ‘I’ve got other priorities. Kids, daily living’ doesn’t wash with me. I know what it’s like to be in my 20s and 30s. I didn’t give a stuff about pensions. Not interested. That was for old crusties. I needed the money now and in any case I’d never get old like the coffin dodgers. Then I reached mid/late 30s and was between jobs and it suddenly dawned on me I might have to rely on state crumbs. So I took provision seriously from then.
I sacrificed spending then for sufficient money now. I do not see why I should be penalised for that by means testing or any other dopey idea. I paid in (I’m guessing more than the majority I’m guessing) so it’s only right that I should get something out. ‘It doesn’t work like that’? I think it does and should. Otherwise they should make paying NI voluntary. Watch the NI £££ collapse then! Alternatively, pay me back all my contributions adjusted to today’s values and me and the govt can call it quits.
Solutions?
I’d end triple lock but link to inflation. Bin Christmas £10 and winter fuel and adjust state pension to the equivalent.
I’d make pension provision compulsory from working age. 16 - if the government says people can vote at that age, they can start saving for a pension. This includes self employed. How? Ive ideas but not thought them through.
First and foremost I’d end this nonsense about not being able to afford it. The government finds money when it needs to, whether it’s £7bn and rising on illegal migration without a peep about the cost by HMG or £billions found by the last shower lining the pockets of their mates during Covid with dodgy contracts and shaky schemes. |
The size of the economy is irrelevant - it doesn’t make us wealthy, our per capita wealth has flatlined or fallen for over a decade. We are behind our European peers in many metrics. India has a huge economy- it certainly isn’t wealthy. The £7bn you reference is peanuts compared to the £140bn (and rising) annual cost of the state pension. The Europeans are also reviewing their pension ages and costs because it’s isn’t affordable (civil servant pensions alone have billions in unfunded liabilities).
Again - no one here has suggested current pensioners should be penalised, but the OBR and virtually every forecasting institution agrees the current Ponzi scheme is unsustainable. |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:07 - Sep 17 with 538 views | Churchman |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:42 - Sep 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
The size of the economy is irrelevant - it doesn’t make us wealthy, our per capita wealth has flatlined or fallen for over a decade. We are behind our European peers in many metrics. India has a huge economy- it certainly isn’t wealthy. The £7bn you reference is peanuts compared to the £140bn (and rising) annual cost of the state pension. The Europeans are also reviewing their pension ages and costs because it’s isn’t affordable (civil servant pensions alone have billions in unfunded liabilities).
Again - no one here has suggested current pensioners should be penalised, but the OBR and virtually every forecasting institution agrees the current Ponzi scheme is unsustainable. |
So what you are saying is that per capita this is the poorest country in Europe and cannot afford to pay even a meagre state pension to people who have contributed and worked in many cases all their lives. Fair enough.
Attached is a short summary on state provision. It’s a little out of date but it captures basic differences between countries.
https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commentary/uk-state-pension-really-worst-europe-ii
As for civil servants unfunded pension liabilities, that’s a choice a previous governments made. It took people’s contributions there and then and spent them. Jam today, s0d tomorrow because we won’t be in power anyway was basically what they did. They could have invested those contributions into pension funds.
In a sense, the hard working taxpayer had their money up front, some of it from people who never lived to get a penny out of their pension so the government and the people got a good deal. If the taxpayer (including me) has to pay now, so be it.
Since the govt have ended final salary schemes and replaced them with rubbish average ones payable at state retirement age or money purchase schemes, the ‘problem’ is literally dying away anyway.
Lastly, I don’t see £7bn as peanuts given it is the equivalent of 1p a in the £1 income tax raise or 25% raise in social care spending. |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:26 - Sep 17 with 504 views | bluejacko |
Ok basic ‘solution’ I will happily pay tax and NI if you pay me the basic living wage,no pension credits,no council tax exemptions,no free this or that just everyone gets the same! It looks expensive but when all the costs of running our pension system etc is cut there can be money saved!
Easy isn’t it?😂 | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:28 - Sep 17 with 484 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:07 - Sep 17 by Churchman |
So what you are saying is that per capita this is the poorest country in Europe and cannot afford to pay even a meagre state pension to people who have contributed and worked in many cases all their lives. Fair enough.
Attached is a short summary on state provision. It’s a little out of date but it captures basic differences between countries.
https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commentary/uk-state-pension-really-worst-europe-ii
As for civil servants unfunded pension liabilities, that’s a choice a previous governments made. It took people’s contributions there and then and spent them. Jam today, s0d tomorrow because we won’t be in power anyway was basically what they did. They could have invested those contributions into pension funds.
In a sense, the hard working taxpayer had their money up front, some of it from people who never lived to get a penny out of their pension so the government and the people got a good deal. If the taxpayer (including me) has to pay now, so be it.
Since the govt have ended final salary schemes and replaced them with rubbish average ones payable at state retirement age or money purchase schemes, the ‘problem’ is literally dying away anyway.
Lastly, I don’t see £7bn as peanuts given it is the equivalent of 1p a in the £1 income tax raise or 25% raise in social care spending. |
It’s very much out of date because state pension ages are rising all across Europe, and likely will continue to do so. France is in a particularly perilous place in terms of national debt and it’s inevitable they’ll have to reform their scheme. I don’t see why shifting the burden to the private sector is controversial. The original state pension was only expected to be paid to claimants for a couple of years post retirement- not a couple of decades.
The issue is people who’ve contributed haven’t contributed enough, and those contributions weren’t ever set aside, they were spent. That’s the government’s fault and to reemphasise I’m not suggesting current pensioners should be penalised. I’m simply suggesting that demographics have changed, and will continue to do so. No amount of immigration is going to change that unless there is a rapid fall in life expectancy. State pension in its current form is a drag on public services and therefore on quality of life and economic growth (across Western Europe). We can reform it without putting current pensioners in poverty (this govt have already done that to some with WFA). | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:29 - Sep 17 with 480 views | Radlett_blue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:07 - Sep 17 by Churchman |
So what you are saying is that per capita this is the poorest country in Europe and cannot afford to pay even a meagre state pension to people who have contributed and worked in many cases all their lives. Fair enough.
Attached is a short summary on state provision. It’s a little out of date but it captures basic differences between countries.
https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commentary/uk-state-pension-really-worst-europe-ii
As for civil servants unfunded pension liabilities, that’s a choice a previous governments made. It took people’s contributions there and then and spent them. Jam today, s0d tomorrow because we won’t be in power anyway was basically what they did. They could have invested those contributions into pension funds.
In a sense, the hard working taxpayer had their money up front, some of it from people who never lived to get a penny out of their pension so the government and the people got a good deal. If the taxpayer (including me) has to pay now, so be it.
Since the govt have ended final salary schemes and replaced them with rubbish average ones payable at state retirement age or money purchase schemes, the ‘problem’ is literally dying away anyway.
Lastly, I don’t see £7bn as peanuts given it is the equivalent of 1p a in the £1 income tax raise or 25% raise in social care spending. |
The government has not "ended final salary schemes". Most state employees still have defined benefit schemes. Employees are very aware of their huge value & become very militant if they are threatened. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:30 - Sep 17 with 477 views | Churchman |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:26 - Sep 17 by bluejacko |
Ok basic ‘solution’ I will happily pay tax and NI if you pay me the basic living wage,no pension credits,no council tax exemptions,no free this or that just everyone gets the same! It looks expensive but when all the costs of running our pension system etc is cut there can be money saved!
Easy isn’t it?😂 |
How about the Spartans solution? If you are beyond your usefulness, out onto the hillside on a cold night you go. Sorted! | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:46 - Sep 17 with 424 views | mellowblue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 22:09 - Sep 16 by soupytwist |
Can we please stop making the argument along the lines of "I've paid in so I should be due £x or £y". National insurance has not for decades been, if it ever was, a hypothecated tax reserved for your pension.
Today's taxes pay for today's state pensions and the taxes of 10,20 or 30 years ago paid for the state pensions of those times. |
I think most on here know that, but contributions are contributions. Why do the government not streamline the tax system by doing away with N.I all together and raise income tax to make up the shortfall. Save a lot of admin. | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:49 - Sep 17 with 421 views | DanTheMan |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 10:28 - Sep 17 by Churchman |
The economy is £3.5tn. We can afford it. U.K. state pension provision is about the worst of all western countries, by a large margin with most of them. They can afford it, why can’t we? I believe it’s more to do with how the government view pensioners, especially ones that have paid in all their lives.
This government sees pensioners as useless mouths that largely don’t vote for them so they, like farmers and certain other sections of our society are fair game - wring out the old codgers - they are a drain on ‘the hard working tax payer’, cluttering hospital beds and surgeries. Just look at Reeves’ spiteful winter fuel nonsense. It was never going to save much money. All it was going to do was create further hardship amongst the poorest. It certainly told us all we needed to know about how they saw pensioners.
But pensioners spend money in the economy. Take that out and it’s hardly going to help anyone. Many, like myself, pay taxes too. A lot of it.
We had best pension provision in the world back in the late 80s. It was a mix of final salary schemes, money purchase schemes, savings, assets and state provision. It broadly worked. Since then successive governments starting with the tories ‘pension holidays’ but especially Blair’s and his numbskull successors has seen pensions as a larder to raid. Pension provision now is a mess.
The triple lock? It was brought in to try and address the pathetic level of state pension provision and in that it’s been largely successful.
The idea ‘I’ve got other priorities. Kids, daily living’ doesn’t wash with me. I know what it’s like to be in my 20s and 30s. I didn’t give a stuff about pensions. Not interested. That was for old crusties. I needed the money now and in any case I’d never get old like the coffin dodgers. Then I reached mid/late 30s and was between jobs and it suddenly dawned on me I might have to rely on state crumbs. So I took provision seriously from then.
I sacrificed spending then for sufficient money now. I do not see why I should be penalised for that by means testing or any other dopey idea. I paid in (I’m guessing more than the majority I’m guessing) so it’s only right that I should get something out. ‘It doesn’t work like that’? I think it does and should. Otherwise they should make paying NI voluntary. Watch the NI £££ collapse then! Alternatively, pay me back all my contributions adjusted to today’s values and me and the govt can call it quits.
Solutions?
I’d end triple lock but link to inflation. Bin Christmas £10 and winter fuel and adjust state pension to the equivalent.
I’d make pension provision compulsory from working age. 16 - if the government says people can vote at that age, they can start saving for a pension. This includes self employed. How? Ive ideas but not thought them through.
First and foremost I’d end this nonsense about not being able to afford it. The government finds money when it needs to, whether it’s £7bn and rising on illegal migration without a peep about the cost by HMG or £billions found by the last shower lining the pockets of their mates during Covid with dodgy contracts and shaky schemes. |
> The economy is £3.5tn.
This is largely irrelevant - we may have a big economy, but the underlying issue is around how much money the Government has available and how big a portion of the pie we spend on pensions.
> U.K. state pension provision is about the worst of all western countries, by a large margin with most of them. They can afford it, why can’t we?
Some can't. France is going through the same issue. It's also very hard to compare when they have very different systems from ours. For example Spain has larger payouts, but their mandatory contribution rates are much higher, around 5% minimum for an employee and then I think it's well over 25% for an employer. Given how much of a kerfuffle the NI increase caused, can you imagine the backlash if we turned around to businesses and said they'd need to contribute 25% for every employee? That's a 400% increase.
And this is at the heart of the problem. I don't think people really know what they want out of our pension scheme. We could, of course, make it incredibly generous if everyone agrees that everyone needs to pay loads of money in. It does grate on me a little bit that the people saying that the working people need to pay more are people who are retired or approaching it, because they know it's not going to affect them.
> The idea ‘I’ve got other priorities. Kids, daily living’ doesn’t wash with me. I know what it’s like to be in my 20s and 30s.
Do you? Are you currently in your 20s or 30s with kids? I don't know how people manage, especially those with children. And the later you start saving, the harder it is.
> but especially Blair’s and his numbskull successors has seen pensions as a larder to raid
I'm going to be clear here: there was and has never been a magic pot of pension money set aside, it has always gone into the same pot. This is one of the most frustrating things about NI being some separate thing; people assume that it's like an actual pension. It is not.
> . I paid in (I’m guessing more than the majority I’m guessing) so it’s only right that I should get something out. ‘It doesn’t work like that’? I think it does and should.
But it doesn't work like that and never has. You paid for the pensioners whenever you worked. It's all in one pot.
On the topic of solutions, one simple one is to peg it to average earnings, so it is predictable and you don't end up with weird scenarios where the workers are being hit and tax is down, but that tax needs to pay for increasing pensions. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:52 - Sep 17 with 407 views | bluejacko |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:30 - Sep 17 by Churchman |
How about the Spartans solution? If you are beyond your usefulness, out onto the hillside on a cold night you go. Sorted! |
Obviously my post was tongue in cheek but honestly our pension system is rubbish!
I have a full state pension and a small army one so I pay tax on that.
A person not on a full pension can claim pension credit which brings them up to £3 a week behind me,then because they are on credit they can claim all sorts of extra benefits which actually makes them better off from me!
Sooo to save administrative costs etc get everyone on the same pension,maybe increase it a bit and cut ALL the benefits that come with pension credit etc! Now surely that would save money or have I got it massively wrong? | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:54 - Sep 17 with 400 views | bracknell_blue |
Good. Food inflation is near 5%, my water bill just went up 33%, my occupational pension gets taxed at over 30% because I have some savings. It gets harder every year to keep up with essentials.
The state pension is very poor compared with most European countries. If you don't have a private pension you are completely knackered these days |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 12:34 - Sep 17 with 330 views | Churchman |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 11:29 - Sep 17 by Radlett_blue |
The government has not "ended final salary schemes". Most state employees still have defined benefit schemes. Employees are very aware of their huge value & become very militant if they are threatened. |
That depends on the definition of ‘ended’. Nobody could join a final salary scheme after 2007. The existing schemes (classic, classic plus, Premium) continued for existing members until 2015 and to retirement if scheme retirement age 60 was imminent.
The existing schemes were essentially closed though accrued benefits calculated to final salary up to 2022. The rest of their contributions beyond 2015 were bunged into Alpha average scheme that paid out on state retirement age, not 60 as the old schemes did.
When Civil Service pension schemes were reviewed in the 2000s Lord Hutton warned against the government engaging in a race to the bottom. A bit like public enquiry recommendations for WASPI women and state pensions, of which Mrs C is one, that went in the bin.
Thanks politicians you have done your work well. [Post edited 17 Sep 13:40]
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 13:19 - Sep 17 with 276 views | mellowblue |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 08:11 - Sep 17 by DJR |
I was not suggesting removing pension increases on the state pension just not having the triple lock, and given the tax advantages of investing in pensions, I can't see outcome being the behaviour you suggest. [Post edited 17 Sep 8:21]
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apologies, I think I replied to the wrong message. I'm becoming an old codger as well ! | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 13:22 - Sep 17 with 268 views | DJR |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 13:19 - Sep 17 by mellowblue |
apologies, I think I replied to the wrong message. I'm becoming an old codger as well ! |
No worries at all. |  | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 13:45 - Sep 17 with 216 views | J2BLUE |
Scrap pensions and benefits. Replace them with UBI beginning at the start of the next parliament.
Who is going to pay for it?
How about Amazon who are well on their way to employing more robots than humans? how about Morrisons who are introducing AI trolleys? How about Sainsburys/Tesco/Asda who increase the number of self service tills every year and get rid of checkout staff? that's just off the top of my head.
In the near future we will have self driving cars on a much wider scale. We will have customer service jobs filled by AI programs. Sales jobs, admin jobs, driving jobs...even flight attendants according to Microsoft.
We need everyone to share in this disruptive technology. Gary Stevenson talks about the asset economy. This is just going to make it worse. Shareholder of Amazon? Great. Random pleb? Oh well, who cares?
We need to be planning for this now because i bet these companies are planning their defence of why the benefits can't be shared. Instead we face the very real threat of Reform coming in, replacing the NHS with health insurance and giving the ordinary person absolutely nothing. We must choose now. Demand that everyone benefits from AI and robotics for a new of prosperity or willingly accept becoming a national (and world) where there are the mega wealthy and the plebs.
Oh and I know TWTD always remembers. I did post recently that my entire stock portfolio is now a big bet on AI/robotics/quantum computing/biotech etc but I would much rather everyone benefitted. We do not have to sell out the masses for 'shareholder value'. We should be negotiating with Europe to form a power block so when America tries to bully us not to tax their companies we can at least have some chance of success.
If people choose to vote for Reform (and i'm not calling anyone stupid, I voted for Brexit...) just know you are bringing the wrong future closer unless you are independently wealthy. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:32 - Sep 17 with 152 views | mutters |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 13:45 - Sep 17 by J2BLUE |
Scrap pensions and benefits. Replace them with UBI beginning at the start of the next parliament.
Who is going to pay for it?
How about Amazon who are well on their way to employing more robots than humans? how about Morrisons who are introducing AI trolleys? How about Sainsburys/Tesco/Asda who increase the number of self service tills every year and get rid of checkout staff? that's just off the top of my head.
In the near future we will have self driving cars on a much wider scale. We will have customer service jobs filled by AI programs. Sales jobs, admin jobs, driving jobs...even flight attendants according to Microsoft.
We need everyone to share in this disruptive technology. Gary Stevenson talks about the asset economy. This is just going to make it worse. Shareholder of Amazon? Great. Random pleb? Oh well, who cares?
We need to be planning for this now because i bet these companies are planning their defence of why the benefits can't be shared. Instead we face the very real threat of Reform coming in, replacing the NHS with health insurance and giving the ordinary person absolutely nothing. We must choose now. Demand that everyone benefits from AI and robotics for a new of prosperity or willingly accept becoming a national (and world) where there are the mega wealthy and the plebs.
Oh and I know TWTD always remembers. I did post recently that my entire stock portfolio is now a big bet on AI/robotics/quantum computing/biotech etc but I would much rather everyone benefitted. We do not have to sell out the masses for 'shareholder value'. We should be negotiating with Europe to form a power block so when America tries to bully us not to tax their companies we can at least have some chance of success.
If people choose to vote for Reform (and i'm not calling anyone stupid, I voted for Brexit...) just know you are bringing the wrong future closer unless you are independently wealthy. |
Am interested in hearing about what your stock portfolio is invested in? I've got exposure to the majority of the sectors you state but am always keen to learn more. |  |
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| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:45 - Sep 17 with 132 views | naa |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 17:17 - Sep 16 by Radlett_blue |
The Triple Lock has become another sacred cow of entitlement that no government will risk abolishing, especially as pensioners have a greater propensity to vote. |
I don't understand why the triple lock exists. Why does the pension need to rise by more than inflation? It shouldn't slip behind but why does it need to grow by more (admittedly only when inflation is low)?
That is definitely an unsustainable amount. | | | |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:57 - Sep 17 with 101 views | mutters |
| The state pension will rise by 4.7% next year. on 14:45 - Sep 17 by naa |
I don't understand why the triple lock exists. Why does the pension need to rise by more than inflation? It shouldn't slip behind but why does it need to grow by more (admittedly only when inflation is low)?
That is definitely an unsustainable amount. |
It was put in place back on 2010 as the state pension was then being left behind by the rising cost of living. Whether it's still valid in today's world who knows. | |
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