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Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters were banned from watching their game against Aston Villa after police intelligence concluded the biggest risk of violence came from extremist fans of the Israeli club.
According to sources, police intelligence said:
Scores of extreme Maccabi fans with a past history of violence and shouting “racist taunts” were expected to travel to the Birmingham game.
Dutch police told their British counterparts that the Maccabi fans had instigated trouble in Amsterdam at a game last year.
They had randomly picked Muslims in Amsterdam to attack. That led to reprisal violence with some Dutch Jews attacked.
A huge Dutch police effort, involving 5,000 officers across three days, was needed to quell the trouble.
A community impact assessment by West Midlands police recorded that some Jewish people wanted the Maccabi fans banned because of the trouble that might ensue if they attended.
Any trouble started by Maccabi fans attending the Birmingham game could lead to reprisals from local people and further trouble.
The process did not consider whether the ban on fans of the Israeli club could be criticised as antisemitic itself or surrendering to antisemitism.
The ban on Maccabi fans was made by Birmingham’s Safety Advisory Group. It was decided after an intelligence assessment was conducted by West Midlands police, shared with the national UK football policing unit.
The UK football policing unit is understood to have backed the conclusions reached by local police.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Do they work in high positions in the IDF, police, judiciary, parliament etc? Do they have equal rights in Israeli society? Which Arabic Israeli has the highest position in Israel? I guess, Israel, being a completely equitable society, there are Arabs in approximately 21% of all important public positions. What are they?
Yes – there are Arab major generals in the IDF, Arab Supreme Court judges and many Arab members of the Knesset
Yes. And worth noting Christian Arabs are one of the best educated and wealthiest groups in Israeli society.
One (Majalli Wahabi) has been acting president; several have been government ministers.
While there is an issue with racism in Israeli football (Beitar Jerusalem being the worst offenders), two clubs from Arab towns play in the Israeli Premier League and a non-Arab Muslim captained the national team for several years.
1
Well, well, well! on 07:50 - Oct 24 with 1472 views
Yes – there are Arab major generals in the IDF, Arab Supreme Court judges and many Arab members of the Knesset
Yes. And worth noting Christian Arabs are one of the best educated and wealthiest groups in Israeli society.
One (Majalli Wahabi) has been acting president; several have been government ministers.
While there is an issue with racism in Israeli football (Beitar Jerusalem being the worst offenders), two clubs from Arab towns play in the Israeli Premier League and a non-Arab Muslim captained the national team for several years.
And of course in 2021, before Netanyahu cobbled together his coalition of far right terrorist supporting settlers, the Israeli government was made up of a coalition which included the United Arab List (Ra'am).
Well, well, well! on 14:37 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue
I haven't downplayed the actions of those Maccabi fans who took part in racist genocidal chanting and burning of Palestinian flags in Amsterdam. However, I've called it our for what it is. The disgusting actions of a minority. Why do you have a problem with that?
"a minority of Maccabi fans behaved appallingly. They took part in disgusting racism and genocidal chanting. If they got a kicking for their actions they deserved it."
Aston Villa banning away fans..... by GlasgowBlue16 Oct 19:09 You should read what is written. I've said at the time and i've said on this thread that a minority of Maccabi fans behaved appallingly. They took part in disgusting racism and genocidal chanting. If they goit a kicking for their actions they deserved it.
However, the attacks were coordinated against Jews days before any of this took place. And they were anti semitic. People were attacked for "helping Jews".
The reason given for Maccabi fans not being permitted to attend the Vila game is because of potential attacks similar to those seen in Amsterdam.
I can link more if you like.
I would suggest you have downplayed the violent actions of Maccabi fans in this very post. Well done you.
By describing the actions of Maccabis far right support as burning of Palestinian flags and singing genocidal songs ( is that the lovely tune about why there are no schools in Gaza?). But forgetting the part about the violent unprovoked attacks on Arab taxi drivers purely down to their race you are clearly downplaying their actions.
Surprised you can't see that.
You then go on to set out a framework in which ALL the attacks on Maccabi fans were premeditated attacks on Jews planned way in advance. And that EVERYONE involved in the reprisals were 100% doing so outta some kinda antisemitic feeling. (No mention of a minority here I noticed)
So what you appear to have done is had a look at the historical evidence available and failed to see it objectively. And instead set out a false narrative, in which a tiny minority of Maccabi fans were involved in some chanting. (No mention of violence). And that all the violence against Maccabi fans were premeditated antisemitism.
I would suggest that is clearly downplaying the actions of Maccabi fans
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Well, well, well! on 13:23 - Oct 24 with 1337 views
Well, well, well! on 13:20 - Oct 24 by leitrimblue
I would suggest you have downplayed the violent actions of Maccabi fans in this very post. Well done you.
By describing the actions of Maccabis far right support as burning of Palestinian flags and singing genocidal songs ( is that the lovely tune about why there are no schools in Gaza?). But forgetting the part about the violent unprovoked attacks on Arab taxi drivers purely down to their race you are clearly downplaying their actions.
Surprised you can't see that.
You then go on to set out a framework in which ALL the attacks on Maccabi fans were premeditated attacks on Jews planned way in advance. And that EVERYONE involved in the reprisals were 100% doing so outta some kinda antisemitic feeling. (No mention of a minority here I noticed)
So what you appear to have done is had a look at the historical evidence available and failed to see it objectively. And instead set out a false narrative, in which a tiny minority of Maccabi fans were involved in some chanting. (No mention of violence). And that all the violence against Maccabi fans were premeditated antisemitism.
I would suggest that is clearly downplaying the actions of Maccabi fans
There was a report of one taxi being attacked. Absolutely disgusting and I should not have left that out. I don't have any evidence, but would not be surprised if that sole attack on a taxi was an Islamophobic attack by some Maccabi fans.I won't defend or excuse that. And I condemn it. However, there has been no conviction for that attack so it's difficult to comment any further.
The convictions in the Dutch courts were for pre meditated anti semitic attacks. That is a matter of record.
Your next point:
"You then go on to set out a framework in which ALL the attacks on Maccabi fans were premeditated attacks on Jews planned way in advance. And that EVERYONE involved in the reprisals were 100% doing so outta some kinda antisemitic feeling".
From the report by the Dutch Inspectorate of Justice and Security:
"Officers were reportedly taken aback by the speed and coordination of the confrontations, which appeared to be organized online and carried out using encrypted messaging services.
"In multiple incidents, authorities allegedly lost track of where the unrest was unfolding. Demonstrators moved rapidly between locations, targeting Jewish symbols and venues near the stadium, including the Orthodox synagogue and the kosher restaurant HaCarmel. In one instance, officers abandoned efforts to contain the chaos and focused on “preserving their own safety,”
"Around the time of the match, Maccabi Tel Aviv fans and people perceived to be Jewish were threatened, intimidated, and in some cases assaulted at multiple locations across Amsterdam".
"the events highlight a broader failure to monitor extremist activity online. The role of social media was decisive. Calls for violence spread rapidly and amplified existing tensions. This must be monitored better.”
It was a pre mediated and organised Jew hunt.
One of the messages used in court:
“jodenjacht” means Jew Hunt.
Not much more to be said. I'm not sure what your endgame is but downplaying an premeditated anti semitic attack is not a good look.
I think we are pretty much done here but you keep excusing the inexcusable by all means. I said when I returned I didn't want to get dragged into this type of debate again. But it's difficult seeing the usual suspects downplaying antisemitism.
edit. In fact it's easier just to hide the thread so as not to be dragged back in but you boys carry on. Although one of you will no doubt start a seperate thread about the same thing.
There was a report of one taxi being attacked. Absolutely disgusting and I should not have left that out. I don't have any evidence, but would not be surprised if that sole attack on a taxi was an Islamophobic attack by some Maccabi fans.I won't defend or excuse that. And I condemn it. However, there has been no conviction for that attack so it's difficult to comment any further.
The convictions in the Dutch courts were for pre meditated anti semitic attacks. That is a matter of record.
Your next point:
"You then go on to set out a framework in which ALL the attacks on Maccabi fans were premeditated attacks on Jews planned way in advance. And that EVERYONE involved in the reprisals were 100% doing so outta some kinda antisemitic feeling".
From the report by the Dutch Inspectorate of Justice and Security:
"Officers were reportedly taken aback by the speed and coordination of the confrontations, which appeared to be organized online and carried out using encrypted messaging services.
"In multiple incidents, authorities allegedly lost track of where the unrest was unfolding. Demonstrators moved rapidly between locations, targeting Jewish symbols and venues near the stadium, including the Orthodox synagogue and the kosher restaurant HaCarmel. In one instance, officers abandoned efforts to contain the chaos and focused on “preserving their own safety,”
"Around the time of the match, Maccabi Tel Aviv fans and people perceived to be Jewish were threatened, intimidated, and in some cases assaulted at multiple locations across Amsterdam".
"the events highlight a broader failure to monitor extremist activity online. The role of social media was decisive. Calls for violence spread rapidly and amplified existing tensions. This must be monitored better.”
It was a pre mediated and organised Jew hunt.
One of the messages used in court:
“jodenjacht” means Jew Hunt.
Not much more to be said. I'm not sure what your endgame is but downplaying an premeditated anti semitic attack is not a good look.
I think we are pretty much done here but you keep excusing the inexcusable by all means. I said when I returned I didn't want to get dragged into this type of debate again. But it's difficult seeing the usual suspects downplaying antisemitism.
edit. In fact it's easier just to hide the thread so as not to be dragged back in but you boys carry on. Although one of you will no doubt start a seperate thread about the same thing.
[Post edited 24 Oct 14:35]
So your still gonna stick to your false narrative that the violence and the genocidal chanting was just by a tiny tiny amount of loveable Maccabi fans. Whilst the attacks on Maccabi fans were carried out 100% by people with antisemitic intent?
Where in your articles does it state that? I'm struggling to find it.
I also find it a bit strange that you are more concerned about the rights of far right Arab hating supporters from another country, endorsed by Tommy Robinson to march through an area with a high Muslim population then you are about the rights for the Muslim communities living there.
I would also suggest that if your back to crying antisemitic wolf again every time someone disagrees with you another break may not be a bad thing
Well, well, well! on 15:18 - Oct 24 by leitrimblue
So your still gonna stick to your false narrative that the violence and the genocidal chanting was just by a tiny tiny amount of loveable Maccabi fans. Whilst the attacks on Maccabi fans were carried out 100% by people with antisemitic intent?
Where in your articles does it state that? I'm struggling to find it.
I also find it a bit strange that you are more concerned about the rights of far right Arab hating supporters from another country, endorsed by Tommy Robinson to march through an area with a high Muslim population then you are about the rights for the Muslim communities living there.
I would also suggest that if your back to crying antisemitic wolf again every time someone disagrees with you another break may not be a bad thing
Apparently, Macabi have non Jewish fans, so there should be no talk of antisemitism here.
The curious thing for me is that there could be a debate on the issue in Parliament without the contents of the report being disclosed.
That's not how things normally work.
[Post edited 22 Oct 21:52]
Why it has taken so long for this to emerge officially is puzzling.
The significant factor appears to be the following (quoting the words of the Chief Superintendent).
"What is probably quite unique in these circumstances is whereas often hooligans will clash with other hooligans and it will be contained within the football fan base, we've had examples where a section of Maccabi fans were targeting people not involved in football matches, and certainly we had an incident in Amsterdam last year which has informed some of our decision-making
Why it has taken so long for this to emerge officially is puzzling.
The significant factor appears to be the following (quoting the words of the Chief Superintendent).
"What is probably quite unique in these circumstances is whereas often hooligans will clash with other hooligans and it will be contained within the football fan base, we've had examples where a section of Maccabi fans were targeting people not involved in football matches, and certainly we had an incident in Amsterdam last year which has informed some of our decision-making
Surprisingly (or not), what was in the Sky News report doesn't seem to have been reported by any other UK news organisation but I did come across this from a Middle East Eye report from a couple of days ago.
"Dutch police told their British counterparts that over 200 Maccabi Tel Aviv football fans who wreaked havoc in Amsterdam in November 2024 were "linked to the Israel Defense Forces [IDF]", and that hundreds more were "experienced fighters", "highly organised" and "intent on causing serious violence".
The original police assessment, seen by MEE, records that Dutch police informed their British counterparts that "over 200" Maccabi Tel Aviv fans in Amsterdam last year were "linked to the Israel Defense Forces", Israel's army.
Dutch police reported that "significant numbers of Maccabi fans were actively involved in demonstrations and confrontations".
They said "500-600 fans" were "experienced fighters who were highly organised and co-ordinated. They were intent on serious violence and were not afraid of fighting with police."
Amsterdam City Council recently banned Maccabi Tel Aviv from the Dutch capital after the club's fans caused mayhem by rampaging through the city last November, before and after their Europa League match against Ajax.
According to the West Midlands Police assessment, the day before the fixture saw between 500 and 600 fans "apparently intentionally targeting Muslim communities and committing a variety of targeted, hate-motivated crimes, including serious assaults on Muslim taxi drivers, throwing innocent members of the public into the river, tearing down Palestine flags and singing hate-fuelled songs.
"Police attempts to disperse this group resulted in serious violence."
The day of the match saw fans "tearing down Palestinian flags and chanting anti-Arab slogans".
The assessment notes: "Several Maccabi fans were assaulted by masked groups believed to be pro-Palestinian protesters. There were running street battles between the two groups throughout the day.
"Significant incidents of vandalism and street violence, including several attacks on taxi drivers and local communities by Maccabi fans were experienced."
Surprisingly (or not), what was in the Sky News report doesn't seem to have been reported by any other UK news organisation but I did come across this from a Middle East Eye report from a couple of days ago.
"Dutch police told their British counterparts that over 200 Maccabi Tel Aviv football fans who wreaked havoc in Amsterdam in November 2024 were "linked to the Israel Defense Forces [IDF]", and that hundreds more were "experienced fighters", "highly organised" and "intent on causing serious violence".
The original police assessment, seen by MEE, records that Dutch police informed their British counterparts that "over 200" Maccabi Tel Aviv fans in Amsterdam last year were "linked to the Israel Defense Forces", Israel's army.
Dutch police reported that "significant numbers of Maccabi fans were actively involved in demonstrations and confrontations".
They said "500-600 fans" were "experienced fighters who were highly organised and co-ordinated. They were intent on serious violence and were not afraid of fighting with police."
Amsterdam City Council recently banned Maccabi Tel Aviv from the Dutch capital after the club's fans caused mayhem by rampaging through the city last November, before and after their Europa League match against Ajax.
According to the West Midlands Police assessment, the day before the fixture saw between 500 and 600 fans "apparently intentionally targeting Muslim communities and committing a variety of targeted, hate-motivated crimes, including serious assaults on Muslim taxi drivers, throwing innocent members of the public into the river, tearing down Palestine flags and singing hate-fuelled songs.
"Police attempts to disperse this group resulted in serious violence."
The day of the match saw fans "tearing down Palestinian flags and chanting anti-Arab slogans".
The assessment notes: "Several Maccabi fans were assaulted by masked groups believed to be pro-Palestinian protesters. There were running street battles between the two groups throughout the day.
"Significant incidents of vandalism and street violence, including several attacks on taxi drivers and local communities by Maccabi fans were experienced."
[Post edited 7 Nov 10:52]
I've not seen the Qatari-funded Hamas-lite Middle East Eye linked on here since Koonters was banned. Only a cesspit like the Middle East Eye would twist Israel’s compulsory conscription into a conspiratorial revelation.
I've not seen the Qatari-funded Hamas-lite Middle East Eye linked on here since Koonters was banned. Only a cesspit like the Middle East Eye would twist Israel’s compulsory conscription into a conspiratorial revelation.
I'm surprised you fell for this nonsense.
It doesn't mean they haven't seen or accurately reported the assessment, and my take on the article isn't yours given the article merely appeared to be quoting words from the assessment.
In addition, a journalist I respect, Peter Oborne, writes for them, having been ostracised in this country.
As it is, I always look at variety of sources, and the combination of this report, the one that Bankster mentioned in the OP and the Sky News report seem fairly consistent and suggest to me that it was best to leave the decision to the authorities who know the full facts.
Indeed, the interview with the Chief Superintendent on the video I linked is well worth watching in full.
It doesn't mean they haven't seen or accurately reported the assessment, and my take on the article isn't yours given the article merely appeared to be quoting words from the assessment.
In addition, a journalist I respect, Peter Oborne, writes for them, having been ostracised in this country.
As it is, I always look at variety of sources, and the combination of this report, the one that Bankster mentioned in the OP and the Sky News report seem fairly consistent and suggest to me that it was best to leave the decision to the authorities who know the full facts.
Indeed, the interview with the Chief Superintendent on the video I linked is well worth watching in full.
[Post edited 7 Nov 11:43]
"Peter Oborne, writes for them, having been ostracised in this country". Precisely. A disgraced Assad apologist.
Again, I refer you to the nonsense in trying to link Maccabi fans to the IDF in a country which has compulsory conscription.
"Peter Oborne, writes for them, having been ostracised in this country". Precisely. A disgraced Assad apologist.
Again, I refer you to the nonsense in trying to link Maccabi fans to the IDF in a country which has compulsory conscription.
[Post edited 7 Nov 12:22]
The difference between you and me is that I don't use personal smears in my discourse or in an attempt to win an argument, not least because they seem to me to be an attempt to shut down discussion.
Of course, it way well be that Oborne was wrong on Assad (I can't claim to have read everything he has written) but that doesn't mean one should then discount everything else he has written. Indeed, he was very good at exposing the Johnson lies, and as a result was ostracised by the right wing media in this country.
The expression "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" also springs to mind.
As regards the reference to the link of over 200 fans to the IDF, I took that to be something that went beyond the mere fact that they had been conscripts, given that I imagine virtually every adult male Macccabi fan would have served in the IDF.
Anyway, leaving aside the Middle East Eye report, and having regard to what the Chief Superintendent said, do you think it was the right decision to ban the Maccabi fans?
Why it has taken so long for this to emerge officially is puzzling.
The significant factor appears to be the following (quoting the words of the Chief Superintendent).
"What is probably quite unique in these circumstances is whereas often hooligans will clash with other hooligans and it will be contained within the football fan base, we've had examples where a section of Maccabi fans were targeting people not involved in football matches, and certainly we had an incident in Amsterdam last year which has informed some of our decision-making
It does seem a little harsh on Maccabi Tel Aviv fans. While there is acknowledgement within the club itself that there is a racist element among their fans, there is no appreciation from West Midlands Police that Maccabi Tel Aviv have the most ethical racist fans in world football.
The fact that Maccabi fans are being linked to the IDF, who are currently carrying out an ethical genocide in the Middle East, points to something quite ugly.
It doesn't mean they haven't seen or accurately reported the assessment, and my take on the article isn't yours given the article merely appeared to be quoting words from the assessment.
In addition, a journalist I respect, Peter Oborne, writes for them, having been ostracised in this country.
As it is, I always look at variety of sources, and the combination of this report, the one that Bankster mentioned in the OP and the Sky News report seem fairly consistent and suggest to me that it was best to leave the decision to the authorities who know the full facts.
Indeed, the interview with the Chief Superintendent on the video I linked is well worth watching in full.
[Post edited 7 Nov 11:43]
Indeed, Oborne was hardly alone in his scepticism around the events at Douma. Bellingcat was also brought into question at the same time, albeit for different reasons. But it is of little surprise that some malign actors would jump upon Oborne's coverage because it went against the establishment grain - even though he only questioned events rather than refuted anything known at the time.
His book The Rise of Political Lying is excellent, if you've not read it.
Why it has taken so long for this to emerge officially is puzzling.
The significant factor appears to be the following (quoting the words of the Chief Superintendent).
"What is probably quite unique in these circumstances is whereas often hooligans will clash with other hooligans and it will be contained within the football fan base, we've had examples where a section of Maccabi fans were targeting people not involved in football matches, and certainly we had an incident in Amsterdam last year which has informed some of our decision-making
Not wanting to get drawn into the very polarised arguments over this, but I still feel that in an ideal world, the individuals responsible are dealt with rather than a whole fanbase is banned based on their behaviour. Perhaps it is too large a number to deal with them. Perhaps the intelligence meant it was too high a risk.
I don't know what the answer should have been. I remain uncomfortable with the police dictating one set of fans could not attend.
Not wanting to get drawn into the very polarised arguments over this, but I still feel that in an ideal world, the individuals responsible are dealt with rather than a whole fanbase is banned based on their behaviour. Perhaps it is too large a number to deal with them. Perhaps the intelligence meant it was too high a risk.
I don't know what the answer should have been. I remain uncomfortable with the police dictating one set of fans could not attend.
Not wanting to get drawn into the very polarised arguments over this, but I still feel that in an ideal world, the individuals responsible are dealt with rather than a whole fanbase is banned based on their behaviour. Perhaps it is too large a number to deal with them. Perhaps the intelligence meant it was too high a risk.
I don't know what the answer should have been. I remain uncomfortable with the police dictating one set of fans could not attend.
I don't know how familiar people are with Whitton where Villa Park is. However, if even half of what is written about the intelligence is accurate, it would have been utterly stupid and negligent for the police to have left things to proceed. There are not many more heavily Asian / Muslim neighbourhoods to be found.
I don't know how familiar people are with Whitton where Villa Park is. However, if even half of what is written about the intelligence is accurate, it would have been utterly stupid and negligent for the police to have left things to proceed. There are not many more heavily Asian / Muslim neighbourhoods to be found.
It seems a terrible shame that the more peaceful fans of an Israeli club should be prevented from traveling to support their club. It's clear to all of us that despite having served in the IDF previously, these fans have nothing to do with the genocide which their democratically elected government is currently carrying out.
I wonder if there were any discussions about the possibility of the large Muslim population of Whitton being relocated away from the area during the time of the match, so not to provoke peaceful Maccabi fans with their presence. Not taking actions such as these and banning all Maccabi fans points to something very ugly and rather reminiscent of events in Europe 80 years ago.
It seems a terrible shame that the more peaceful fans of an Israeli club should be prevented from traveling to support their club. It's clear to all of us that despite having served in the IDF previously, these fans have nothing to do with the genocide which their democratically elected government is currently carrying out.
I wonder if there were any discussions about the possibility of the large Muslim population of Whitton being relocated away from the area during the time of the match, so not to provoke peaceful Maccabi fans with their presence. Not taking actions such as these and banning all Maccabi fans points to something very ugly and rather reminiscent of events in Europe 80 years ago.
Im not sure if that was supposed to be satire, or whether its just misconceived!
Im not sure if that was supposed to be satire, or whether its just misconceived!
It's satire of course. The fact that that's not startlingly obvious is quite sad.
I don't think there's really any other sort of post I can muster anymore when commenting on anything connected to the horrors committed by Israel at the moment and the fact that there are still people, including our PM, who are sympathising with some fans who have been chanting words which effectively celebrate the death of innocent children.
I am now in such utter disbelief at what my country is supporting, or failing to stop at best, that all I can do is mock them and those who support them.
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