| Covid vaccine harm 06:24 - Feb 18 with 3609 views | gtsb1966 |
22,000 claims yet only a 1% pay out but at a cost of £50m to the tax payer. Covid, the disease that keeps on giving, for some.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/art |  | | |  |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:07 - Feb 19 with 396 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 23:56 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman |
No, I'm not. I'm making a point about where you draw the line when it comes to other people's health.
I believe if there is a bout of covid going round, healthy people should not be vaccinated or locked up. |
You're definitely constructing a false equivalence.
Nobody was forced to have vaccinations in this country, it was offered as it lowered the chance of serious infection and hospitalisation. To keep insinuating that it was mandatory is also false.
Whether restrictions are put in place for the unvaccinated is a different matter and one for society rather than the individual. Look at where we are currently heading with measles with vaccination levels too low to ensure herd immunity yet many people expect others to be vaccinated to maintain their herd immunity.
Some countries do restrict services for the unvaccinated such as children not being able to attend state school in France if they aren't vaccinated but that hasn't happened here so to say people don't have body autonomy as you've implied in other posts isn't correct.
SB |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:14 - Feb 19 with 366 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:05 - Feb 19 by reusersfreekicks |
You do know that a lot of previously healthy people died during covid?
How would you have felt as an exhausted nurse or doctor tending to a previously proud anti vaxer now very ill and begging, all to late for the vaccine?
By your logic maybe they shouldn't have been able to access health care.
Or was that fake government and big pharma propaganda.
People still pushing anti vaccine conspiracy nonsense is tedious and offensive |
I'm not an anti-vaxxer and I know very few. One thing is for sure, none of the people who I know who chose not to take the Covid vaccine, especially the previously healthy ones, would be begging anyone for the vaccine, intubation or remdesivir in hospital.
You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:17 - Feb 19 with 362 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:14 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm not an anti-vaxxer and I know very few. One thing is for sure, none of the people who I know who chose not to take the Covid vaccine, especially the previously healthy ones, would be begging anyone for the vaccine, intubation or remdesivir in hospital.
You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. |
"None of the people you knew."
Well that must be a statistically significant sample size and we should all draw conclusions based on that... |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:18 - Feb 19 with 360 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:07 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
You're definitely constructing a false equivalence.
Nobody was forced to have vaccinations in this country, it was offered as it lowered the chance of serious infection and hospitalisation. To keep insinuating that it was mandatory is also false.
Whether restrictions are put in place for the unvaccinated is a different matter and one for society rather than the individual. Look at where we are currently heading with measles with vaccination levels too low to ensure herd immunity yet many people expect others to be vaccinated to maintain their herd immunity.
Some countries do restrict services for the unvaccinated such as children not being able to attend state school in France if they aren't vaccinated but that hasn't happened here so to say people don't have body autonomy as you've implied in other posts isn't correct.
SB |
I live in France.
Do my comments in this thread about state coercion make sense to you now? [Post edited 19 Feb 0:31]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 00:53 - Feb 19 with 318 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:17 - Feb 19 by reusersfreekicks |
"None of the people you knew."
Well that must be a statistically significant sample size and we should all draw conclusions based on that... |
You fail to understand that many people who decided not to get vaccinated did so at the expense of their jobs. It's not a decision you make lightly.
I work as a psychologist and yes, the number of educated people who gave up their jobs or were forced into vaccination is significant. Nurses, doctors, ambulance workers, military personnel, chemists, parapharmacists... I'm sorry that my personal experience of that time is different to your own.
Before you spout off about your own little world, spare a thought for those people, far more intelligent than you, and far more knowledgeable about vaccines than you, who were under so much stress and pressure to conform to something that they didn't agree with for perfectly valid reasons that resulted in countless job losses, divorces (including my own) and the resulting effect that has on those families' children's mental health, addictions and in some cases suicides. [Post edited 19 Feb 1:07]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 01:00 - Feb 19 with 315 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:53 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
You fail to understand that many people who decided not to get vaccinated did so at the expense of their jobs. It's not a decision you make lightly.
I work as a psychologist and yes, the number of educated people who gave up their jobs or were forced into vaccination is significant. Nurses, doctors, ambulance workers, military personnel, chemists, parapharmacists... I'm sorry that my personal experience of that time is different to your own.
Before you spout off about your own little world, spare a thought for those people, far more intelligent than you, and far more knowledgeable about vaccines than you, who were under so much stress and pressure to conform to something that they didn't agree with for perfectly valid reasons that resulted in countless job losses, divorces (including my own) and the resulting effect that has on those families' children's mental health, addictions and in some cases suicides. [Post edited 19 Feb 1:07]
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So yes, I do have "skin in the game" of sorts, but I chose my words carefully. Perhaps you with your narrow perspective gained from your small world will understand now that is why I've continued to state that I'm not antivax, but I'm pro choice concerning this matter. Apparently, you're not. | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 01:06 - Feb 19 with 307 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Covid vaccine harm on 14:54 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman |
I have little skin in the game on this topic, but I'm fascinated to know how you can claim that it "can’t be argued that vaccines saved millions or billions of lives across the globe".
What real data do you have to support this claim? |
There might be an aging population in many countries but “Billions” is an insane claim when you look at the amount of people on the planet and every single dataset about the virus and deaths globally. |  |
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| Covid vaccine harm on 01:15 - Feb 19 with 297 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 01:06 - Feb 19 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
There might be an aging population in many countries but “Billions” is an insane claim when you look at the amount of people on the planet and every single dataset about the virus and deaths globally. |
You realise, I'm sure, that I was quoting another poster. | | | |
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| Covid vaccine harm on 01:23 - Feb 19 with 266 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Covid vaccine harm on 01:15 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
You realise, I'm sure, that I was quoting another poster. |
Yes! | |
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| Covid vaccine harm on 08:05 - Feb 19 with 189 views | Axeldalai_lama |
And they've said they were talking about all vaccines, before this thread went down a rabbit hole. |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:07 - Feb 19 with 178 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:18 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I live in France.
Do my comments in this thread about state coercion make sense to you now? [Post edited 19 Feb 0:31]
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Not especially.
In France it's not new vaccines like covid that they currently expect people to have, it's very well tested and highly used vaccines such as MMR. There is still body autonomy, however if you decide to do something that effects other people, such as not take MMR and reduce herd immunity against measles then there are consequences to that decision.
I actually think we should have a similar stance in the UK.
SB | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:07 - Feb 19 with 178 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:14 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm not an anti-vaxxer and I know very few. One thing is for sure, none of the people who I know who chose not to take the Covid vaccine, especially the previously healthy ones, would be begging anyone for the vaccine, intubation or remdesivir in hospital.
You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. |
"You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers."
Why don't you tell us then instead of skirting around that point?
SB | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:57 - Feb 19 with 124 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:07 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
"You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers."
Why don't you tell us then instead of skirting around that point?
SB |
I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
Suffice to say, I think we all reserve the right not impose on or insert in others, medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm.
Say all you like about evidence, misinformation, scaremongering or being dangerous. I have heard every point of view a thousand times and that is why I hold the position that I do. It's not an anti-vax position, it's a bodily sovereignty position.
Insult me all you like, neither of us will be changing our positions on this matter this week so I have no intention of defending a minority view of this nature on a football forum with people who appear to have a considerable interest in changing the behaviours of others.
Cheerio. [Post edited 19 Feb 8:59]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 08:58 - Feb 19 with 123 views | LeoMuff |
| Covid vaccine harm on 01:15 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
You realise, I'm sure, that I was quoting another poster. |
As you also realise the post was on all vaccines. Covid vaccine is in the 10s of millions. |  |
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:04 - Feb 19 with 105 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:57 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
Suffice to say, I think we all reserve the right not impose on or insert in others, medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm.
Say all you like about evidence, misinformation, scaremongering or being dangerous. I have heard every point of view a thousand times and that is why I hold the position that I do. It's not an anti-vax position, it's a bodily sovereignty position.
Insult me all you like, neither of us will be changing our positions on this matter this week so I have no intention of defending a minority view of this nature on a football forum with people who appear to have a considerable interest in changing the behaviours of others.
Cheerio. [Post edited 19 Feb 8:59]
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Where have I insulted you? I think that's an unfair accusation that you should retract.
The large-scale French study I posted isn't exactly what you asked for but it does deal with longer term mortality risk from the vaccine with a very large sample size. Did you read that and did you have any thoughts on it?
Do you not consider the MMR vaccine to be thoroughly tested by this point? You've focused on covid vaccines in many of your replies but you do also mention vaccines in the general case and clearly not all are the same.
Are people trying to change your behaviour? People are asking for some actual substance and evidence which you are reluctant to provide. There is no mandate for vaccines so your body autonomy point seems a stretch.
You're right though that we are all hitting an impasse.
Have a good day.
SB [Post edited 19 Feb 9:09]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:07 - Feb 19 with 100 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:58 - Feb 19 by LeoMuff |
As you also realise the post was on all vaccines. Covid vaccine is in the 10s of millions. |
Yes, I realise that.
You can link me to thousands of documents detailing the effectiveness of vaccines, and I will agree with most of it. I've stated my position on bodily sovereignty countless times now - a position which was a majority one outside of autocratic regimes until quite recently. | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:17 - Feb 19 with 90 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:04 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
Where have I insulted you? I think that's an unfair accusation that you should retract.
The large-scale French study I posted isn't exactly what you asked for but it does deal with longer term mortality risk from the vaccine with a very large sample size. Did you read that and did you have any thoughts on it?
Do you not consider the MMR vaccine to be thoroughly tested by this point? You've focused on covid vaccines in many of your replies but you do also mention vaccines in the general case and clearly not all are the same.
Are people trying to change your behaviour? People are asking for some actual substance and evidence which you are reluctant to provide. There is no mandate for vaccines so your body autonomy point seems a stretch.
You're right though that we are all hitting an impasse.
Have a good day.
SB [Post edited 19 Feb 9:09]
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I have not accused you of insulting me, so there's nothing to retract.
You should retract your demands for a retraction.
"People are asking for some actual substance and evidence which you are reluctant to provide."
What "substance" do I need to share to support my position of bodily sovereignty? I think you need to read my last reply to you again. [Post edited 19 Feb 9:21]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:21 - Feb 19 with 74 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:17 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I have not accused you of insulting me, so there's nothing to retract.
You should retract your demands for a retraction.
"People are asking for some actual substance and evidence which you are reluctant to provide."
What "substance" do I need to share to support my position of bodily sovereignty? I think you need to read my last reply to you again. [Post edited 19 Feb 9:21]
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It read that way to me but in which case I retract :).
I read your reply, there were 4 pages of people asking for evidence before it which you didn't really engage with. I don't really think you should decide this "things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion" for other people though and use it as an get-out to not post evidence.
Did you look at the study?
Anyway, as you rightly pointed out we won't agree so best leave it there.
SB
Edit: I see you've made an edit. I wasn't asking for evidence on body sovereignty and I don't think others were either. You have alleged on numerous occasions in the thread that vaccines may not be safe over the longer term, people were asking for evidence around that. It was why I refocused to MMR which has a long history of usage with a large number of doses. [Post edited 19 Feb 9:24]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:32 - Feb 19 with 52 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:21 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
It read that way to me but in which case I retract :).
I read your reply, there were 4 pages of people asking for evidence before it which you didn't really engage with. I don't really think you should decide this "things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion" for other people though and use it as an get-out to not post evidence.
Did you look at the study?
Anyway, as you rightly pointed out we won't agree so best leave it there.
SB
Edit: I see you've made an edit. I wasn't asking for evidence on body sovereignty and I don't think others were either. You have alleged on numerous occasions in the thread that vaccines may not be safe over the longer term, people were asking for evidence around that. It was why I refocused to MMR which has a long history of usage with a large number of doses. [Post edited 19 Feb 9:24]
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Thank you for your retraction.
You say "You have alleged on numerous occasions in the thread that vaccines may not be safe over the longer term, people were asking for evidence around that."
If you can provide any evidence in this thread where I have alleged anything of the sort, go ahead. If not, I will assume that this is another case of you reading something wrongly and I'd like another retraction while you are handing them out so freely. | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:43 - Feb 19 with 34 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:32 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
Thank you for your retraction.
You say "You have alleged on numerous occasions in the thread that vaccines may not be safe over the longer term, people were asking for evidence around that."
If you can provide any evidence in this thread where I have alleged anything of the sort, go ahead. If not, I will assume that this is another case of you reading something wrongly and I'd like another retraction while you are handing them out so freely. |
This certainly reads that way to me but perhaps I am not reading it as you intended?
"medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm"
I don't think your point on body autonomy is valid, nobody is forcing you to have any vaccines.
SB [Post edited 19 Feb 9:44]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:46 - Feb 19 with 24 views | MattinLondon |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:57 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
Suffice to say, I think we all reserve the right not impose on or insert in others, medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm.
Say all you like about evidence, misinformation, scaremongering or being dangerous. I have heard every point of view a thousand times and that is why I hold the position that I do. It's not an anti-vax position, it's a bodily sovereignty position.
Insult me all you like, neither of us will be changing our positions on this matter this week so I have no intention of defending a minority view of this nature on a football forum with people who appear to have a considerable interest in changing the behaviours of others.
Cheerio. [Post edited 19 Feb 8:59]
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I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
In layman’s speak - I have no real hard evidence at all. |  | | |
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