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Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 10:48 - Mar 10 by Ryorry
He opened Pandora's Box. No-one can possibly know or predict with any certainty where it will end.
Good point about his oil-loving mates - wonder how many shares the orange turd has. The one thing even I predicted at minute 1 of Day 1 of the war was a massive hoick in oil prices.
20pc of the world’s oil passes through the Hormuz Straight - a big chunk of it to Asia which is why the Asian indexes are some of the worst hit.
‘A price worth paying’ though apparently.
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Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 11:56 - Mar 10 with 398 views
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 07:43 - Mar 10 by GlasgowBlue
This outrageous EG. Not only have you spread false propaganda without a shred of evidence, but when you have been corrected, instead of rowing back you double down by using an age old anti semitic trope. And not a single person has blinked. Even worse somebody has up voted your use of anti semitic language.
Calling Israel a "puppeteer"—specifically in the context of controlling other governments, leaders, or world events—is widely considered an antisemitic trope. Here is a breakdown of why this imagery is problematic:
Echoes Historical Tropes: The image of a "puppet master" or "puppeteer" manipulating world events has been a staple of anti-Jewish propaganda for over a century, famously used in Nazi propaganda to portray Jews as secret controllers of nations.
Conspiracy Theories: Phrases like "puppet controlled by the Zionist lobby" are often used to invoke conspiracy theories about undue Jewish influence over foreign governments, particularly the United States.
Context Matters: While political criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic, using the specific visual or verbal language of a "puppeteer" often crosses the line from legitimate criticism into the use of antisemitic stereotypes.
Examples of Controversy: Descriptions of the U.S. government as a "puppet" of Israel have been condemned as anti-Semitic by organisations like the Anti-Defamation League (ADL).
Artwork or cartoons depicting Israeli officials as puppeteers holding strings (e.g., of U.S. leaders or other entities) are frequently cited as evoking Nazi-era imagery.
In summary, while criticism of Israeli policy is not antisemitic, using the "puppeteer" motif is viewed as a direct invocation of historical, anti-Jewish conspiracy theories.
I’m sure there was no intent to slip into anti semiotic language. Nothing you have posted before suggests anything to the contrary. Probably best to edit.
Let's spend hours and hours and pages and pages deflecting from the true victims of this conflict (the people you claim so disingenuously to care about) by exhausting everyone with tired and inaccurate charges of antisemitism.
It doesn't matter if the labelling of antisemitism is fair or not. It always works. In fact the more ludicrous the accusation is, the better, because push back is then labelled antisemitism denial.
Shulamit Aloni says it best: "Well it's a trick, we always use it" - because it works.
[Post edited 10 Mar 11:59]
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Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 12:36 - Mar 10 with 323 views
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 10:58 - Mar 10 by Ryorry
Sorry GB, but I see that (edit - I mean the "puppeteer" comment) as being wholly directed at *Israel*, not at Jewish people - and therefore not antisemitic.
You have to allow for context.
Speaking as someone who usually supports you on your admirable long fight against antisemitism.
[Post edited 10 Mar 11:02]
I wasn't coming back to this, but quite a few posters seem to be under the misapprehension what I posted was my interpretation of using the word puppeteer. It isn't. What I posted was a quote.
"Calling Israel a "puppeteer"—specifically in the context of controlling other governments, leaders, or world events—is widely considered an antisemitic trope"
That's not my interpretation but one from major bodies and guidelines, such as those related to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) working definition of antisemitism.
EG could have said that Trump is being influenced by Netanyahu. That Netanyahu is setting the agenda and trump following his lead. But in two seperate threads he used the Puppeteer trope. Once on this thread when he doubled down on who bombed the school and on another thread where he accused two Jews, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, of pulling the strings.
Once may have been careless but the second was posted 45 minutes after I had pulled him up on this thread. He could have accepted that the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition and edited his words. He has chosen not to.
[Post edited 10 Mar 12:41]
FREE IRAN FROM THE MULLAHS - FREE PALESTINE FROM HAMAS - FREE LEBANON FROM HEZBOLLAH
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 07:43 - Mar 10 by GlasgowBlue
This outrageous EG. Not only have you spread false propaganda without a shred of evidence, but when you have been corrected, instead of rowing back you double down by using an age old anti semitic trope. And not a single person has blinked. Even worse somebody has up voted your use of anti semitic language.
Calling Israel a "puppeteer"—specifically in the context of controlling other governments, leaders, or world events—is widely considered an antisemitic trope. Here is a breakdown of why this imagery is problematic:
Echoes Historical Tropes: The image of a "puppet master" or "puppeteer" manipulating world events has been a staple of anti-Jewish propaganda for over a century, famously used in Nazi propaganda to portray Jews as secret controllers of nations.
Conspiracy Theories: Phrases like "puppet controlled by the Zionist lobby" are often used to invoke conspiracy theories about undue Jewish influence over foreign governments, particularly the United States.
Context Matters: While political criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic, using the specific visual or verbal language of a "puppeteer" often crosses the line from legitimate criticism into the use of antisemitic stereotypes.
Examples of Controversy: Descriptions of the U.S. government as a "puppet" of Israel have been condemned as anti-Semitic by organisations like the Anti-Defamation League (ADL).
Artwork or cartoons depicting Israeli officials as puppeteers holding strings (e.g., of U.S. leaders or other entities) are frequently cited as evoking Nazi-era imagery.
In summary, while criticism of Israeli policy is not antisemitic, using the "puppeteer" motif is viewed as a direct invocation of historical, anti-Jewish conspiracy theories.
I’m sure there was no intent to slip into anti semiotic language. Nothing you have posted before suggests anything to the contrary. Probably best to edit.
That first paragraph feels very harsh Glassers. Whilst the subsequent points you make serve as a useful historical reminder and I also recognise there is a more concillitory tone in your last paragraph, I can't help but feel you've responded to something that just isn't there. Grizzers is forthright in his views, as you and others are, but not every anti Israel post, especially when it is clearly aimed at either yahoo or the IDF should not necessarily be forensically examined through an anti semitism filter. Maybe I'm blind to the sensitivities somewhat, but I can't think of any posts they have made that have been overtly hateful in any way. As always, I'll stand corrected. In truth, in describing the current situation in the middle east I don't doubt for a moment I would have used similar language and would have meant it framed within the common cultural usage the idiom is generally known for and not as an anti semetic trope. Maybe it isn't possible given the players involved, but given Rubio's comments, how might the situation be better explained?
Edit: I had to pause for a while midway through typing this and hadn't seen the reply that partially answers my last question.
[Post edited 10 Mar 13:04]
Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.
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Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 13:01 - Mar 10 with 257 views
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 10:50 - Mar 10 by DJR
In my view it is not an accurate description.
The US has been a staunch supporter of Israel from its creation, and during the Gaza war under both Biden and Trump has supplied billions of dollars in weapons.
What we now have is a US President willing to go militarily after arguably the three biggest bogeymen for the Republican right, namely, Venezuela, Cuba and Iran.
It seems to me therefore that the interests of Trump and Netanyahu are completely in step., and Trump wouldn't have moved a vast amount of military resources to the Middle East just for fun. And I don't believe Netanyahu acted without some sort of military collusion with the US, given how quickly the US got involved.
And just last week the US voted through vast amounts of further military aid to Israel, not the sign of a country that objects to what is going on in Iran.
[Post edited 10 Mar 10:57]
If we are going to be picking up on words, then I think your use of the word "war" in the context of Gaza was a bit disingenuous - if it was a war, it was the most one-sided war I've ever heard of....
You are the obsolete SRN4 to my Fairey Rotodyne....
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 13:01 - Mar 10 by Ewan_Oozami
If we are going to be picking up on words, then I think your use of the word "war" in the context of Gaza was a bit disingenuous - if it was a war, it was the most one-sided war I've ever heard of....
Fair enough.
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Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 13:05 - Mar 10 with 240 views
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 12:57 - Mar 10 by Whos_blue
That first paragraph feels very harsh Glassers. Whilst the subsequent points you make serve as a useful historical reminder and I also recognise there is a more concillitory tone in your last paragraph, I can't help but feel you've responded to something that just isn't there. Grizzers is forthright in his views, as you and others are, but not every anti Israel post, especially when it is clearly aimed at either yahoo or the IDF should not necessarily be forensically examined through an anti semitism filter. Maybe I'm blind to the sensitivities somewhat, but I can't think of any posts they have made that have been overtly hateful in any way. As always, I'll stand corrected. In truth, in describing the current situation in the middle east I don't doubt for a moment I would have used similar language and would have meant it framed within the common cultural usage the idiom is generally known for and not as an anti semetic trope. Maybe it isn't possible given the players involved, but given Rubio's comments, how might the situation be better explained?
Edit: I had to pause for a while midway through typing this and hadn't seen the reply that partially answers my last question.
[Post edited 10 Mar 13:04]
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children by GlasgowBlue10 Mar 12:36 I wasn't coming back to this, but quite a few posters seem to be under the misapprehension what I posted was my interpretation of using the word puppeteer. It isn't. What I posted was a quote.
"Calling Israel a "puppeteer"—specifically in the context of controlling other governments, leaders, or world events—is widely considered an antisemitic trope"
That's not my interpretation but one from major bodies and guidelines, such as those related to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) working definition of antisemitism.
EG could have said that Trump is being influenced by Netanyahu. That Netanyahu is setting the agenda and trump following his lead. But in two seperate threads he used the Puppeteer trope. Once on this thread when he doubled down on who bombed the school and on another thread where he accused two Jews, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, of pulling the strings.
Once may have been careless but the second was posted 45 minutes after I had pulled him up on this thread. He could have accepted that the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition and edited his words. He has chosen not to.
There are plenty of ways to describe the situation without using the Puppeteer trope. These tropes are easy to avoid. Just as it's unacceptable to use the octopus trope, the blood libel trope, the fat banker trope, the Jesus killer trope, the vampire trope, the dual loyalty trope or the rat trope.
There are so many ways to criticise the Israeli state without falling back on anti semitic tropes. And most people would correct those tropes is it was pointed out to them. Not go onto another thread and repeat them again.
edit. Listen, I could have saved myself. lot of grief, read EG's thread and let it go. But that would have been cowardly and completely at odds with my principles. I saw anti semitic language used and made an attempt to get the op to edit it.
[Post edited 10 Mar 13:16]
FREE IRAN FROM THE MULLAHS - FREE PALESTINE FROM HAMAS - FREE LEBANON FROM HEZBOLLAH
Deeply anti semitic. As was the previous version which had Obama rather than Biden. Steve Bell, previously of the Guardian got into trouble over something similar.
FREE IRAN FROM THE MULLAHS - FREE PALESTINE FROM HAMAS - FREE LEBANON FROM HEZBOLLAH
Regarding the puppeteer trope I think it's ridiculous to suggest America are acting just because Israel are telling them to. That is not Trump. If he doesn't want to do something he won't do it. Maybe Israel took the lead on it, but the administration was and is fully behind the action.
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 13:05 - Mar 10 by GlasgowBlue
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children by GlasgowBlue10 Mar 12:36 I wasn't coming back to this, but quite a few posters seem to be under the misapprehension what I posted was my interpretation of using the word puppeteer. It isn't. What I posted was a quote.
"Calling Israel a "puppeteer"—specifically in the context of controlling other governments, leaders, or world events—is widely considered an antisemitic trope"
That's not my interpretation but one from major bodies and guidelines, such as those related to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) working definition of antisemitism.
EG could have said that Trump is being influenced by Netanyahu. That Netanyahu is setting the agenda and trump following his lead. But in two seperate threads he used the Puppeteer trope. Once on this thread when he doubled down on who bombed the school and on another thread where he accused two Jews, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, of pulling the strings.
Once may have been careless but the second was posted 45 minutes after I had pulled him up on this thread. He could have accepted that the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition and edited his words. He has chosen not to.
There are plenty of ways to describe the situation without using the Puppeteer trope. These tropes are easy to avoid. Just as it's unacceptable to use the octopus trope, the blood libel trope, the fat banker trope, the Jesus killer trope, the vampire trope, the dual loyalty trope or the rat trope.
There are so many ways to criticise the Israeli state without falling back on anti semitic tropes. And most people would correct those tropes is it was pointed out to them. Not go onto another thread and repeat them again.
edit. Listen, I could have saved myself. lot of grief, read EG's thread and let it go. But that would have been cowardly and completely at odds with my principles. I saw anti semitic language used and made an attempt to get the op to edit it.
[Post edited 10 Mar 13:16]
Remaining true to your principles is always the right thing to do. I've been a decades long campaigner for equality, long before it was sexy and on occaision it has blown up in my face. I'm fairly confident I've been consistent on here and have called it out when I've seen it. I'm not familiar with all the tropes you mention, so can educate myself on those. The point I was making is that whilst the terminology can and has been used to denigrate jews, I simply didn't see it in that way and would have probably used similar terminology myself, given it's popular use. I don't know Grizzers, but I can't think of anytime he has used deliberately derogatory language regarding any of the protected characteristics. Some here do. I think we're probably on a similar page Glassers. We're just interpreting the text differently. If people here intentionally use any derogatory trope, it's always incumbent on us to call it out, but on this occasion we're just disagreeing whether the intent was there. I think you've said it is (I've lost track a bit!), I'm not so sure it was. It's ok.
Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.
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Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 15:04 - Mar 10 with 39 views
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 12:36 - Mar 10 by GlasgowBlue
I wasn't coming back to this, but quite a few posters seem to be under the misapprehension what I posted was my interpretation of using the word puppeteer. It isn't. What I posted was a quote.
"Calling Israel a "puppeteer"—specifically in the context of controlling other governments, leaders, or world events—is widely considered an antisemitic trope"
That's not my interpretation but one from major bodies and guidelines, such as those related to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) working definition of antisemitism.
EG could have said that Trump is being influenced by Netanyahu. That Netanyahu is setting the agenda and trump following his lead. But in two seperate threads he used the Puppeteer trope. Once on this thread when he doubled down on who bombed the school and on another thread where he accused two Jews, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, of pulling the strings.
Once may have been careless but the second was posted 45 minutes after I had pulled him up on this thread. He could have accepted that the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition and edited his words. He has chosen not to.
[Post edited 10 Mar 12:41]
It's different from the other tropes you quote though in that whilst those are primarily used as antisemitic, "puppeteer" is a very commonly & widely used general term for a whole range of other situations, people & organisations, particularly political.
Maybe your antennae are set a wee bit high - which is understandable, but sometimes things do need to be taken at face value & with interpretive nuance for context - it can be counterproductive to call *everything* out.
Not content with killing hundreds of Iranian children on 13:50 - Mar 10 by pointofblue
Regarding the puppeteer trope I think it's ridiculous to suggest America are acting just because Israel are telling them to. That is not Trump. If he doesn't want to do something he won't do it. Maybe Israel took the lead on it, but the administration was and is fully behind the action.
I think you need to understand the Epstein files and his son inlaw, plus who has bailed him out of bankruptcy. How do you think he got put in as president? Presidents are selected not elected.
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