| Proporitonal Representation 12:29 - Aug 28 with 998 views | balcombeblue |
https://www.theguardian.com/co
Appreciate this is just Polly being Polly, but I am not fully sure this has been thought through. If there had been PR at the last election, Labour would have had 183 fewer seats. Reform would have had 100. She then writes.
'The prospect of Farage winning a landslide on even less than Labour’s 34% that won 63% of the seats is unconscionable'
e.g. it's fine for one party to win a landslide on a tiny vote share, but not the other.
If Burnham invests any political capital in this at all then he (and probably Labour) are dead ducks. |  | | |  |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:40 - Aug 28 with 931 views | Kievthegreat |
"e.g. it's fine for one party to win a landslide on a tiny vote share, but not the other."
I'd read the article if I was you. She literally says in the 2nd paragraph that it's was unfair when Labour got that landslide.
"... the monster majority that first past the post had delivered so unfairly to Labour MPs" |  | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:43 - Aug 28 with 894 views | jayessess |
Both outcomes are unrepresentative, aren't they?
A change to some form of proportional representation is long overdue. We aren't a nation where you can just sort 80-90% of voters into one tribe or the other anymore and parliament should reflect that diversity.
First past the post doesn't produce representative governments. It incentivises parties to simply campaign against other parties, rather than properly articulate their own positive prospectus to the country. It encourages parties to cater to a narrow sliver of voters in "winnable constituencies" and ignore the views of millions of people who live in safe seats. It discourages the electorate from endorsing parties that actually reflect their views because they need to think strategically about what forces they want to keep out of parliament.
None of which is democratic. |  |
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| Proporitonal Representation on 12:48 - Aug 28 with 866 views | balcombeblue |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:40 - Aug 28 by Kievthegreat |
"e.g. it's fine for one party to win a landslide on a tiny vote share, but not the other."
I'd read the article if I was you. She literally says in the 2nd paragraph that it's was unfair when Labour got that landslide.
"... the monster majority that first past the post had delivered so unfairly to Labour MPs" |
Agreed, she does say that in the second paragraph. Her motivations for PR are still scrambled though. I have no idea what she thinks it will achieve, but it won't dampen Reform's vote or representation. Quite the opposite. | | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:50 - Aug 28 with 857 views | balcombeblue |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:43 - Aug 28 by jayessess |
Both outcomes are unrepresentative, aren't they?
A change to some form of proportional representation is long overdue. We aren't a nation where you can just sort 80-90% of voters into one tribe or the other anymore and parliament should reflect that diversity.
First past the post doesn't produce representative governments. It incentivises parties to simply campaign against other parties, rather than properly articulate their own positive prospectus to the country. It encourages parties to cater to a narrow sliver of voters in "winnable constituencies" and ignore the views of millions of people who live in safe seats. It discourages the electorate from endorsing parties that actually reflect their views because they need to think strategically about what forces they want to keep out of parliament.
None of which is democratic. |
On the other hand PR results in unrepresentative coalitions where fringe view hold the balance of power.
The squabbles are no better and potentially significantly worse. PR hasn't quelled the AfD in Germany. | | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:58 - Aug 28 with 811 views | jayessess |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:50 - Aug 28 by balcombeblue |
On the other hand PR results in unrepresentative coalitions where fringe view hold the balance of power.
The squabbles are no better and potentially significantly worse. PR hasn't quelled the AfD in Germany. |
I don't see what's unrepresentative about a coalition? You have to put together a government that commands the support of more than half the population. Each component of the coalition commands a pile of votes that corresponds to their support in the country.
Certainly more representative than 1/3 of the votes enabling you to do whatever the hell you like.
If half the country wants a particularly horrible government then the electoral system isn't going to stop that for very long anyway. | |
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| Proporitonal Representation on 13:02 - Aug 28 with 787 views | phillymark |
I think an excellent compromise is preferential voting within each constituency. |  | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 13:02 - Aug 28 with 784 views | JohnTy |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:48 - Aug 28 by balcombeblue |
Agreed, she does say that in the second paragraph. Her motivations for PR are still scrambled though. I have no idea what she thinks it will achieve, but it won't dampen Reform's vote or representation. Quite the opposite. |
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/po
Two years ago. Farage predicts pressure to change to PR if his party wins only a handful of seats. Don't know what his position is now, but I suspect that with tactical voting he will be very disappointed in the outcome of the next election. [Post edited 28 Aug 13:03]
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| Proporitonal Representation on 13:08 - Aug 28 with 746 views | balcombeblue |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:58 - Aug 28 by jayessess |
I don't see what's unrepresentative about a coalition? You have to put together a government that commands the support of more than half the population. Each component of the coalition commands a pile of votes that corresponds to their support in the country.
Certainly more representative than 1/3 of the votes enabling you to do whatever the hell you like.
If half the country wants a particularly horrible government then the electoral system isn't going to stop that for very long anyway. |
Unrepresentative in the sense that small parties hold significantly more power than the number of seats would ordinarily dictate. I am not sure what the answer is, but changing the electoral system in order to keep out those you don't like is not certain to work. It will definitely be wasted political capital for Burnham. | | | |
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| Proporitonal Representation on 13:09 - Aug 28 with 744 views | J2BLUE |
You seem worried.
PR is what the people want. The sooner the better. |  | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 13:14 - Aug 28 with 719 views | jayessess |
| Proporitonal Representation on 13:08 - Aug 28 by balcombeblue |
Unrepresentative in the sense that small parties hold significantly more power than the number of seats would ordinarily dictate. I am not sure what the answer is, but changing the electoral system in order to keep out those you don't like is not certain to work. It will definitely be wasted political capital for Burnham. |
If 5% vote for the Monster Raving Loonies, that's how much representation they get in parliament, that seems perfectly fair to me. If a bigger, more voted party wants their support for something, why shouldn't they have to convince that bloc (or pick another bloc) to vote for it? | |
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| Proporitonal Representation on 13:18 - Aug 28 with 699 views | balcombeblue |
| Proporitonal Representation on 13:14 - Aug 28 by jayessess |
If 5% vote for the Monster Raving Loonies, that's how much representation they get in parliament, that seems perfectly fair to me. If a bigger, more voted party wants their support for something, why shouldn't they have to convince that bloc (or pick another bloc) to vote for it? |
Yes, but what if that 5% is the make or break of a coalition and their demands are to enact fringe policies?
If Reform held the balance of power in a PR system, I'm sure there would be less acceptance of PR. | | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 13:26 - Aug 28 with 664 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Proporitonal Representation on 12:48 - Aug 28 by balcombeblue |
Agreed, she does say that in the second paragraph. Her motivations for PR are still scrambled though. I have no idea what she thinks it will achieve, but it won't dampen Reform's vote or representation. Quite the opposite. |
PR is not supposed to dampen Reform or any other party's vote - the whole point of PR is that it provides representation across the political spectrum - it is the FPTP system that supports monolithic parties that created Reform in the first place. |  |
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| Proporitonal Representation on 13:31 - Aug 28 with 644 views | jayessess |
| Proporitonal Representation on 13:18 - Aug 28 by balcombeblue |
Yes, but what if that 5% is the make or break of a coalition and their demands are to enact fringe policies?
If Reform held the balance of power in a PR system, I'm sure there would be less acceptance of PR. |
Winning support from a majority for your politics through compromise is politics, isn't it?
If your coalition partner's demands are so unreasonable then find other partners. And if your coalition partner's policies are so fringe, you aren't going to be able to pass them anyway. | |
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| Proporitonal Representation on 13:45 - Aug 28 with 605 views | DJR |
| Proporitonal Representation on 13:26 - Aug 28 by Ewan_Oozami |
PR is not supposed to dampen Reform or any other party's vote - the whole point of PR is that it provides representation across the political spectrum - it is the FPTP system that supports monolithic parties that created Reform in the first place. |
And I think you will find that those on the left who genuinely support PR (Clive Lewis springs to mind) favour it because it is more representative of the electorate.
That is certainly my motivation for supporting it, not least because I live in a seat where my vote will always be wasted.
I also feel that Labour winning 63% of the seats on less than 34% of the vote made a complete mockery of the current system from a democratic point of view.
But it is the prospect of Labour or the Tories winning a majority which has meant they have have never wanted to ditch it.
And despite his supposed enthusiasm, I wonder if Burnham will in the end follow through.
[Post edited 28 Aug 13:50]
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| Proporitonal Representation on 14:02 - Aug 28 with 514 views | balcombeblue |
| Proporitonal Representation on 13:45 - Aug 28 by DJR |
And I think you will find that those on the left who genuinely support PR (Clive Lewis springs to mind) favour it because it is more representative of the electorate.
That is certainly my motivation for supporting it, not least because I live in a seat where my vote will always be wasted.
I also feel that Labour winning 63% of the seats on less than 34% of the vote made a complete mockery of the current system from a democratic point of view.
But it is the prospect of Labour or the Tories winning a majority which has meant they have have never wanted to ditch it.
And despite his supposed enthusiasm, I wonder if Burnham will in the end follow through.
[Post edited 28 Aug 13:50]
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I get the point about wasted votes. I do like the connection with my local MP though, which again. appreciate has +&-. She's an excellent consituency MP and represents the area well.
With all the chat of the last few weeks, I am surprised there has not been more discontent about what Burnham has been doing. He is a PM who didn't stand under the last manifesto, he's reeling off token measures without parliamentary scrutiny, it's all a bit presidential for my liking.
I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up less popular amongst the Labour base than Starmer. The expectations are similarly high. | | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 14:13 - Aug 28 with 478 views | DanTheMan |
| Proporitonal Representation on 14:02 - Aug 28 by balcombeblue |
I get the point about wasted votes. I do like the connection with my local MP though, which again. appreciate has +&-. She's an excellent consituency MP and represents the area well.
With all the chat of the last few weeks, I am surprised there has not been more discontent about what Burnham has been doing. He is a PM who didn't stand under the last manifesto, he's reeling off token measures without parliamentary scrutiny, it's all a bit presidential for my liking.
I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up less popular amongst the Labour base than Starmer. The expectations are similarly high. |
There are varying degrees of PR. STV keeps the local MP with a decent level of PR. |  |
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| Proporitonal Representation on 14:29 - Aug 28 with 418 views | jayessess |
| Proporitonal Representation on 14:13 - Aug 28 by DanTheMan |
There are varying degrees of PR. STV keeps the local MP with a decent level of PR. |
Always seems odd to me anyway that we expect our national political representatives to act as ad-hoc citizen advice bureaux. | |
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| Proporitonal Representation on 15:55 - Aug 28 with 287 views | DJR |
| Proporitonal Representation on 14:13 - Aug 28 by DanTheMan |
There are varying degrees of PR. STV keeps the local MP with a decent level of PR. |
As does the Scottish system which has constituencies and regional lists on top.
Indeed, I liked the European elections because it meant that my vote counted for something in the South East, with one representative out of 10 based on the regional vote. | | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 15:58 - Aug 28 with 263 views | balcombeblue |
| Proporitonal Representation on 15:55 - Aug 28 by DJR |
As does the Scottish system which has constituencies and regional lists on top.
Indeed, I liked the European elections because it meant that my vote counted for something in the South East, with one representative out of 10 based on the regional vote. |
And then even that was stripped away from you! | | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 16:08 - Aug 28 with 233 views | DJR |
Another hurdle to overcome would be winning the inevitable referendum, especially given the fact that the media managed to persuade many people that Nick Clegg's modest changes would mean the end of civilisation.
Indeed, where I live and where at that time the Mail dwarfed by at least a metre any other paper on the new stands, I noticed, when present at the polling station as a representative of one of the parties, just how many more than usual at a local election (with which the vote was combined) turned out to give the proposals a kicking. [Post edited 28 Aug 16:16]
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| Proporitonal Representation on 16:41 - Aug 28 with 151 views | OldFootball |
Once you get PR, you can never vote out a party again. You will be stuck with them, until *they* decide. Don't underestimate the power of FPTP. |  | | |
| Proporitonal Representation on 17:08 - Aug 28 with 112 views | DJR |
| Proporitonal Representation on 14:02 - Aug 28 by balcombeblue |
I get the point about wasted votes. I do like the connection with my local MP though, which again. appreciate has +&-. She's an excellent consituency MP and represents the area well.
With all the chat of the last few weeks, I am surprised there has not been more discontent about what Burnham has been doing. He is a PM who didn't stand under the last manifesto, he's reeling off token measures without parliamentary scrutiny, it's all a bit presidential for my liking.
I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up less popular amongst the Labour base than Starmer. The expectations are similarly high. |
To be honest, a lot of what he has announced is tinkering at the edges, and some of things he said before he became leader he has gone back on.
And with the appointment of John Healey, it looks like he is carrying on with the same fiscal responsibility mantra as Starmer, unlike, say, Truss who tried to tear things up.
As regards the Labour base, it's only hovering at around 25% even with his election. But he is talking a good game at a time of great difficulty, so I agree there is a danger of building up false expectations.
Finally, I remain to be convinced about his devolution proposals. [Post edited 28 Aug 17:27]
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