| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media 14:58 - Sep 9 with 8898 views | NthQldITFC |
I've been listening to Radio 4, Radio 5 and the World Service today, and the tone of various interviews on the Palestine issue seems somehow different.
There have been some extraordinarily desperate (in my opinion) and awful rants from apologists for Israel's regime (Angela Epstein, West Bank settlers etc.) and on the other hand similarly extraordinary declarations from the likes of Erhud Olmert and other Jewish people who come across as so frustrated and angry with the misuse of the term 'antisemitism'. Notable that one or two BBC presenters have shown real frustration with some of the pro-Israel rants too.
Not sure what effect the UK, France, Canada et al will have on the actors who are really in control of the outcomes, but something certainly seems to have shifted in our media as a result of Labour's shift in stance. About fkn time. |  |
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 17:16 - Sep 25 with 1183 views | balcombeblue |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 13:12 - Sep 25 by NthQldITFC |
Putting aside that deliberate targeting of children alone IS very close to genocide, would you settle for total ethnic cleansing with ongoing methodical mass murder thrown in? All backed up with layers of bullsh!t and covered over with shameful international conspiracy and the extremely flexible deployment of the very sadly rather devalued blanket of 'antisemitism'?
It's not a 'situation' - that sounds almost passive - it's an ongoing genocide perpetrated by a western-backed state right under the noses of the international community, or it's the watered down version above. |
In a word, no.
We did the deliberate targeting of children in another thread, so best not to repeat.
Total ethnic cleansing in Gaza, that's a judgement that has many challenges. The majority of Gazans remain in the territory. Jews on the other hand have been ethnically cleansed by many Arab/Gulf countries (Iraq, Egypt, Morocco, Yemen). Thousands of innocent Jews were killed in these cleanses, despite living there for thousands of years.
I don't for one second suggest there is not suffering on an enormous scale in Gaza. I wish that wasn't the case. I wish Hamas hadn't killed 1200 on the 7th, I wish they weren't horrendously mistreating their people and I wish the Israeli government wasn't taking this action. However, I still stand by my defence and understanding of the terms 'Genocide, holocaust, ethnic cleansing' and so on. Jews know all too well what the consequences of these actions are.
Devalued anti-semitism? look at the attacks we are having in the UK in the last couple of years. |  | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 17:25 - Sep 25 with 1168 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 13:12 - Sep 25 by NthQldITFC |
Putting aside that deliberate targeting of children alone IS very close to genocide, would you settle for total ethnic cleansing with ongoing methodical mass murder thrown in? All backed up with layers of bullsh!t and covered over with shameful international conspiracy and the extremely flexible deployment of the very sadly rather devalued blanket of 'antisemitism'?
It's not a 'situation' - that sounds almost passive - it's an ongoing genocide perpetrated by a western-backed state right under the noses of the international community, or it's the watered down version above. |
Devalued antisemitism?
Maybe I should update this thread
It's getting fcuking scary for Jews around the world by GlasgowBlue 29 Oct 2023 19:04As per Dan's idea, this is the one thread for posting anti semitism awareness in the aftermath of the 7/11 pogrom.
It's getting fcuking scary for Jews around the world
https://x.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1718694433242145172?s=20
https://x.com/just_whatever/status/1718689335988375897?s=20
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1718691772715417642?s=20
https://x.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1718704281669206175?s=20
edit. Not updated since January 2025. Since then we've had Heaton Synagogue stabbings, Bondi Beach etc. Devalued indeed. I despair at times. [Post edited 25 Sep 17:41]
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 21:24 - Sep 25 with 1076 views | DJR |
Here's the trailer to NAZA.
https://www.theguardian.com/fi [Post edited 25 Sep 21:25]
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 07:41 - Sep 26 with 952 views | NthQldITFC |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 17:25 - Sep 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Devalued antisemitism?
Maybe I should update this thread
It's getting fcuking scary for Jews around the world by GlasgowBlue 29 Oct 2023 19:04As per Dan's idea, this is the one thread for posting anti semitism awareness in the aftermath of the 7/11 pogrom.
It's getting fcuking scary for Jews around the world
https://x.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1718694433242145172?s=20
https://x.com/just_whatever/status/1718689335988375897?s=20
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1718691772715417642?s=20
https://x.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1718704281669206175?s=20
edit. Not updated since January 2025. Since then we've had Heaton Synagogue stabbings, Bondi Beach etc. Devalued indeed. I despair at times. [Post edited 25 Sep 17:41]
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In case it really wasn't clear, I was talking about the devaluation of the term antisemitism by N*tanyahu and his chums, and frequently by users of messageboards alike.
https://www.independent.co.uk/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/
The corruption and devaluation of such an important term is really harmful to all the people of the world, but especially to Jewish people, and it's one that I regret greatly. | |
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 09:07 - Sep 26 with 911 views | wrightsrightglove |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 07:41 - Sep 26 by NthQldITFC |
In case it really wasn't clear, I was talking about the devaluation of the term antisemitism by N*tanyahu and his chums, and frequently by users of messageboards alike.
https://www.independent.co.uk/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/
The corruption and devaluation of such an important term is really harmful to all the people of the world, but especially to Jewish people, and it's one that I regret greatly. |
This is the second biggest issue for my Jewish friends right now, people who weaken the wording around antisemitism by throwing it about like it’s not a massively serious and significant term to use. Second only to a genocidal Israeli state committing war crimes |  | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:05 - Sep 26 with 849 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 17:25 - Sep 25 by GlasgowBlue |
Devalued antisemitism?
Maybe I should update this thread
It's getting fcuking scary for Jews around the world by GlasgowBlue 29 Oct 2023 19:04As per Dan's idea, this is the one thread for posting anti semitism awareness in the aftermath of the 7/11 pogrom.
It's getting fcuking scary for Jews around the world
https://x.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1718694433242145172?s=20
https://x.com/just_whatever/status/1718689335988375897?s=20
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1718691772715417642?s=20
https://x.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1718704281669206175?s=20
edit. Not updated since January 2025. Since then we've had Heaton Synagogue stabbings, Bondi Beach etc. Devalued indeed. I despair at times. [Post edited 25 Sep 17:41]
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Weird downvote.
User name is suitably ironic though. | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:08 - Sep 26 with 846 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 07:41 - Sep 26 by NthQldITFC |
In case it really wasn't clear, I was talking about the devaluation of the term antisemitism by N*tanyahu and his chums, and frequently by users of messageboards alike.
https://www.independent.co.uk/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/
The corruption and devaluation of such an important term is really harmful to all the people of the world, but especially to Jewish people, and it's one that I regret greatly. |
That is a very fair clarification.
Netanyahu is a joke though, and clearly doesn’t care about the global Jewish diaspora any more than he cares about Palestinians, given the incendiary language he uses. | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:13 - Sep 26 with 838 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 17:16 - Sep 25 by balcombeblue |
In a word, no.
We did the deliberate targeting of children in another thread, so best not to repeat.
Total ethnic cleansing in Gaza, that's a judgement that has many challenges. The majority of Gazans remain in the territory. Jews on the other hand have been ethnically cleansed by many Arab/Gulf countries (Iraq, Egypt, Morocco, Yemen). Thousands of innocent Jews were killed in these cleanses, despite living there for thousands of years.
I don't for one second suggest there is not suffering on an enormous scale in Gaza. I wish that wasn't the case. I wish Hamas hadn't killed 1200 on the 7th, I wish they weren't horrendously mistreating their people and I wish the Israeli government wasn't taking this action. However, I still stand by my defence and understanding of the terms 'Genocide, holocaust, ethnic cleansing' and so on. Jews know all too well what the consequences of these actions are.
Devalued anti-semitism? look at the attacks we are having in the UK in the last couple of years. |
It does feel like we are quibbling over semantics re genocide given the scale of civilian deaths in Gaza, and the fairly open admissions by some in Israel.
I’d say it’s probably not unfair to also class the Hamas Oct attacks as genocide too, given the only aim was to kill as many Israelis as possible (including kids). | | | |
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:16 - Sep 26 with 826 views | balcombeblue |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:13 - Sep 26 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
It does feel like we are quibbling over semantics re genocide given the scale of civilian deaths in Gaza, and the fairly open admissions by some in Israel.
I’d say it’s probably not unfair to also class the Hamas Oct attacks as genocide too, given the only aim was to kill as many Israelis as possible (including kids). |
I'm definitely trying not to quibble. It's not a semantic debate to me, it's actually a very important one.
Hamas have genocidal intent and displayed it on the 7th. I am surprised that many can't see the difference. | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:26 - Sep 26 with 816 views | NthQldITFC |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:16 - Sep 26 by balcombeblue |
I'm definitely trying not to quibble. It's not a semantic debate to me, it's actually a very important one.
Hamas have genocidal intent and displayed it on the 7th. I am surprised that many can't see the difference. |
Yes, Hamas have genocidal intent, but have no capacity to do anything about it at anything like the same sort of scale. Does it then just come down to scale and power and ongoing actual actions which are actually happening resulting in numbers of deaths? I suppose that's the difference.
Also, what's the strict definition of the geno- bit in genocide, given that we're genetically all related probably more so than many of us are prepared to admit?
What a bloody mess. And how easy would it all be to fix if people could forget their various twisted history books and fictions and just deal with the situation as it is right now. That's real. | |
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:13 - Sep 26 with 756 views | balcombeblue |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:26 - Sep 26 by NthQldITFC |
Yes, Hamas have genocidal intent, but have no capacity to do anything about it at anything like the same sort of scale. Does it then just come down to scale and power and ongoing actual actions which are actually happening resulting in numbers of deaths? I suppose that's the difference.
Also, what's the strict definition of the geno- bit in genocide, given that we're genetically all related probably more so than many of us are prepared to admit?
What a bloody mess. And how easy would it all be to fix if people could forget their various twisted history books and fictions and just deal with the situation as it is right now. That's real. |
It’s all a total mess. It’s impossible to see a solution. | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:20 - Sep 26 with 698 views | jayceee |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 10:05 - Sep 26 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Weird downvote.
User name is suitably ironic though. |
Not a weird downvote at all. (Was me.) As is often the case, GB took the wrong meaning of the initial post - that the tone is changing in the news, showing more frustration at the conflation of criticism of Israel's war crimes with antisemitism. Which DOES weaken or "Devalue" the term antisemitism. So instead of focusing on Israel's actions - which is all it should be - GB steers back to antisemitism.
Antisemitism is disgusting - and the attacks are horrific.
The same for racism, Islamophobia, or any attacks on minorities and any ethnicity.
"Of the total religious hate crime offences recorded in the year ending March 2025, 45% targeted Muslims, while 29% targeted Jewish people."
https://www.bbc.com/news/artic
So, we absolutely have to hunt down and prosecute all of these offenders, but to use actual antisemitism in a discussion about the WEAPONISATION of antisemitism (and the damage it does to the term) is further conflation. |  | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:42 - Sep 26 with 666 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:20 - Sep 26 by jayceee |
Not a weird downvote at all. (Was me.) As is often the case, GB took the wrong meaning of the initial post - that the tone is changing in the news, showing more frustration at the conflation of criticism of Israel's war crimes with antisemitism. Which DOES weaken or "Devalue" the term antisemitism. So instead of focusing on Israel's actions - which is all it should be - GB steers back to antisemitism.
Antisemitism is disgusting - and the attacks are horrific.
The same for racism, Islamophobia, or any attacks on minorities and any ethnicity.
"Of the total religious hate crime offences recorded in the year ending March 2025, 45% targeted Muslims, while 29% targeted Jewish people."
https://www.bbc.com/news/artic
So, we absolutely have to hunt down and prosecute all of these offenders, but to use actual antisemitism in a discussion about the WEAPONISATION of antisemitism (and the damage it does to the term) is further conflation. |
“Of the total religious hate crime offences recorded in the year ending March 2025, 45% targeted Muslims, while 29% targeted Jewish people."
So you’ve proven then that anti semitism is more rife, there are 12 times more Muslims than Jewish people in the UK, so you would expect 12 times more offences which isn’t remotely the case. If you are Jewish, you are therefore proportionately far, far more likely to be a victim of a hate crime.
Appreciate not quite the point of the thread, but I don’t think you understand how statistics work. It’s like saying the % of murder offences in the UK is much higher amongst British males than Russian males, well of course… | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 13:14 - Sep 26 with 618 views | jayceee |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:42 - Sep 26 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“Of the total religious hate crime offences recorded in the year ending March 2025, 45% targeted Muslims, while 29% targeted Jewish people."
So you’ve proven then that anti semitism is more rife, there are 12 times more Muslims than Jewish people in the UK, so you would expect 12 times more offences which isn’t remotely the case. If you are Jewish, you are therefore proportionately far, far more likely to be a victim of a hate crime.
Appreciate not quite the point of the thread, but I don’t think you understand how statistics work. It’s like saying the % of murder offences in the UK is much higher amongst British males than Russian males, well of course… |
My point remains - accusations of antisemitism against those critical of Israel are conflating Israel's crimes with a religion and weaken the term.
A discussion of the war crimes should be just that - a discussion of the war crimes, yet many defend it with accusations of antisemitism.
Some more bad stats from the article:
"Religious hate crimes targeted at Muslims rose by 19%, with a spike following the Southport murders and riots that followed last summer, the Home Office said.
The number of religious hate crimes directed at Jewish people fell by 18% in the year to March."
I get that it has been bad for Jewish people - or any minority under attack - it's all abhorrent, but when discussing Israel, the focus should be on Israel alone, and it comes across as disingenuous when shifting the focus to antisemitism all the time.
As for saying my username is ironic? Jayceee - what? Jesus Christ? Jeremy Corbyn? (A classic case of the weaponisation of antisemitism if ever there was one...), and the list is growing of prominent figures being called antisemitic for criticism of Israel. The whole Ed Sheeran saga is about the weaponisation and cancelling of critical voices. Btw - jc are my actual initials and my username here since the last millennium... | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 13:15 - Sep 26 with 616 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 09:47 - Sep 25 by leitrimblue |
I'd be interested to know exactly what the opposite of genocide is? |
I would have thought it would be the work of UNHCR in places like Gaza giving out basic foodstuff and water to a civilian population which have had their homes shelled and bombed, electricity and water utilities destroyed, and sewers smashed open.
Of course the IDF has targeted the queues for that food and water (as well as killing UNHCR and other humanitarian workers in deliberate strikes) thus contributing to the genocide, so it isn't as clear cut as I initially thought, is it?
Edit: changed an autocorrect of "thus" to "this" back to "thus" [Post edited 26 Sep 13:20]
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 14:38 - Sep 26 with 524 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 13:14 - Sep 26 by jayceee |
My point remains - accusations of antisemitism against those critical of Israel are conflating Israel's crimes with a religion and weaken the term.
A discussion of the war crimes should be just that - a discussion of the war crimes, yet many defend it with accusations of antisemitism.
Some more bad stats from the article:
"Religious hate crimes targeted at Muslims rose by 19%, with a spike following the Southport murders and riots that followed last summer, the Home Office said.
The number of religious hate crimes directed at Jewish people fell by 18% in the year to March."
I get that it has been bad for Jewish people - or any minority under attack - it's all abhorrent, but when discussing Israel, the focus should be on Israel alone, and it comes across as disingenuous when shifting the focus to antisemitism all the time.
As for saying my username is ironic? Jayceee - what? Jesus Christ? Jeremy Corbyn? (A classic case of the weaponisation of antisemitism if ever there was one...), and the list is growing of prominent figures being called antisemitic for criticism of Israel. The whole Ed Sheeran saga is about the weaponisation and cancelling of critical voices. Btw - jc are my actual initials and my username here since the last millennium... |
It was NthQld that brought up antisemitism in fairness, not Glasgow.
Weaponisation in the case of Netanyu is an entirely fair point to make since most of his claims are falsified to the point of farcical. It isn’t really relevant to the fact that British Jews are overwhelmingly the most likely minority group to suffer racism.
In the case of Labour it’s not valid - there was no falsification as the ECHR report proves. If they didn’t want it to be ‘weaponised’ then they could have tried not tolerating it. The crime there is not weaponisation - it’s being racist or tolerating racism. I’ve not seen that word used about any other type of racism it’s quite unsavoury. Even anti racist charities called out the acceptance of antisemitism under Corbyn’s Labour, which to his credit Starmer clamped down hard on. | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:03 - Sep 27 with 375 views | DJR |
https://www.theguardian.com/fi
But the US premiere Saturday held particular resonance, given the country’s annual $3.8bn in military assistance to Israel – a connection the film-makers noted to the New York City crowd.
“These soldiers are talking about what has been done with the taxpayer money of the people sitting here,” said Abraham.
He also responded to the protesters outside the theater invoking the attacks of October 7. “It’s in the film and it’s completely unjustified,” he said of the massacre, which killed 1,200 Israelis, most of them civilians. “But it also cannot justify what you’ve seen in the film. It doesn’t justify the slaughter of so many civilians in Gaza.”
“I don’t want to live in a world where rightful empathy to Israeli victims is weaponized by leaders like Netanyahu – cynical people who promise nothing other than perpetual occupation and war,” he added. “It’s weaponized to mean a lack of empathy to Palestinians, to mean this continuous killing and murder of people. I don’t think we should want to live in such a world. I think we should all refuse to play this zero-sum game.” [Post edited 27 Sep 11:04]
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:29 - Sep 27 with 346 views | balcombeblue |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:03 - Sep 27 by DJR |
https://www.theguardian.com/fi
But the US premiere Saturday held particular resonance, given the country’s annual $3.8bn in military assistance to Israel – a connection the film-makers noted to the New York City crowd.
“These soldiers are talking about what has been done with the taxpayer money of the people sitting here,” said Abraham.
He also responded to the protesters outside the theater invoking the attacks of October 7. “It’s in the film and it’s completely unjustified,” he said of the massacre, which killed 1,200 Israelis, most of them civilians. “But it also cannot justify what you’ve seen in the film. It doesn’t justify the slaughter of so many civilians in Gaza.”
“I don’t want to live in a world where rightful empathy to Israeli victims is weaponized by leaders like Netanyahu – cynical people who promise nothing other than perpetual occupation and war,” he added. “It’s weaponized to mean a lack of empathy to Palestinians, to mean this continuous killing and murder of people. I don’t think we should want to live in such a world. I think we should all refuse to play this zero-sum game.” [Post edited 27 Sep 11:04]
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Have you seen the film? Just wondering if I should watch.
Are the filmmakers balanced and unbiased? | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:36 - Sep 27 with 337 views | lowhouseblue |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:29 - Sep 27 by balcombeblue |
Have you seen the film? Just wondering if I should watch.
Are the filmmakers balanced and unbiased? |
haven't seen the film and have no views about it, so this an entirely tangential comment.
but i find anything getting a 25 minute standing ovation really weird. the film got this at cannes apparently. 25 minutes standing up and clapping!! why? surely just two minutes says that you're really really keen? at least with stalin you kept clapping cos otherwise you'd be shot, but why do 25 minutes when guns aren't involved? makes no sense to me. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:54 - Sep 27 with 300 views | balcombeblue |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:36 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
haven't seen the film and have no views about it, so this an entirely tangential comment.
but i find anything getting a 25 minute standing ovation really weird. the film got this at cannes apparently. 25 minutes standing up and clapping!! why? surely just two minutes says that you're really really keen? at least with stalin you kept clapping cos otherwise you'd be shot, but why do 25 minutes when guns aren't involved? makes no sense to me. |
Imagine if you didn't stand and clap? | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:13 - Sep 27 with 276 views | DJR |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:29 - Sep 27 by balcombeblue |
Have you seen the film? Just wondering if I should watch.
Are the filmmakers balanced and unbiased? |
I'm waiting for it to appear free on the Guardian.
But their Oscar-winning film about the West Bank, No Other Land, was good.
Nobody is unbiased but they are Israeli Jews and obviously come at things from a different perspective to Bibi. | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:17 - Sep 27 with 260 views | balcombeblue |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:13 - Sep 27 by DJR |
I'm waiting for it to appear free on the Guardian.
But their Oscar-winning film about the West Bank, No Other Land, was good.
Nobody is unbiased but they are Israeli Jews and obviously come at things from a different perspective to Bibi. |
I'm keen to see it. Not sure I will do a 25 min standing ovation though. | | | |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:26 - Sep 27 with 232 views | NthQldITFC |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 11:36 - Sep 27 by lowhouseblue |
haven't seen the film and have no views about it, so this an entirely tangential comment.
but i find anything getting a 25 minute standing ovation really weird. the film got this at cannes apparently. 25 minutes standing up and clapping!! why? surely just two minutes says that you're really really keen? at least with stalin you kept clapping cos otherwise you'd be shot, but why do 25 minutes when guns aren't involved? makes no sense to me. |
Guns are very much involved.
I think that's the whole point.
25 minutes isn't such a long time if you care about humanity.
Whether your post is a wind up, or whether you really don't get it, makes little difference. | |
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| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:27 - Sep 27 with 229 views | DJR |
| Today feels somehow different, at least in the UK media on 12:17 - Sep 27 by balcombeblue |
I'm keen to see it. Not sure I will do a 25 min standing ovation though. |
I will be giving it a 25 minute standing ovation in my living room, and will expect my wife to do the same. 
Interestingly, things seems so divided in Israel that even Reform synagogues are coming under attack.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news
The incidents have prompted Reform leaders to warn of escalating hostility toward their communities.
“This series of attacks cannot be treated as isolated incidents,” she said. “When incitement and hateful rhetoric against Reform Judaism are legitimized, the distance between them and violence and the vandalism of synagogues grows shorter.”
Kislanski called on police and other authorities to treat the attacks seriously and protect Reform communities, while vowing that the movement would not be intimidated.
“Our synagogues will remain open to everyone, and egalitarian, tolerant and inclusive prayer will continue,” she said
[Post edited 27 Sep 12:35]
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