| Southgate 19:42 - Jun 4 with 3181 views | cressi |
Not a elite manager one down brings on Phillips a defensive midfielder he will never be brave enough to win anything a Yes man
I'm afraid |  | | |  |
| Southgate on 19:49 - Jun 4 with 2370 views | jeera |
How the heck is he a 'yes man'?
He dropped an old era and set to work on creating a new.
That's not a yes man.
I think you're just lazily using a term you're familiar with. [Post edited 4 Jun 2022 19:51]
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| Southgate on 20:24 - Jun 4 with 2299 views | Bobsthename |
Absolutely correct mate. | | | |
| Southgate on 20:33 - Jun 4 with 2288 views | tractordownsouth |
Yes that game was rubbish but Southgate-bashing is always over the top after the odd defeat in a game that largely doesn't matter. He's the second most successful England manager of all time and even though he got the Euros final tactics wrong, he made some brave calls against Croatia and Germany and got them spot on.
Besides, barely any international teams have an "elite manager", all the best ones are in the club game. Apart from Luis Enrique (Spain) and Hansi Flick (Germany) I can't think of any. And Roberto Mancini failed to even get Italy to the tournament.
Who would we get that's better than Southgate at this time? |  |
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| Southgate on 20:59 - Jun 4 with 2219 views | Bobsthename |
| Southgate on 20:33 - Jun 4 by tractordownsouth |
Yes that game was rubbish but Southgate-bashing is always over the top after the odd defeat in a game that largely doesn't matter. He's the second most successful England manager of all time and even though he got the Euros final tactics wrong, he made some brave calls against Croatia and Germany and got them spot on.
Besides, barely any international teams have an "elite manager", all the best ones are in the club game. Apart from Luis Enrique (Spain) and Hansi Flick (Germany) I can't think of any. And Roberto Mancini failed to even get Italy to the tournament.
Who would we get that's better than Southgate at this time? |
Loving the Brighton manager Graham Potter he has been a breath of fresh air for Brighton fans and he has to be a must as Southgates successor top candidate in my eyes . | | | |
| Southgate on 21:07 - Jun 4 with 2196 views | BloomBlue |
I never understand comments like this, England never won anything when Sor Bob was manager I assume you think Sir Bob wasnt an elite manager and was just a yes man. |  | | |
| Southgate on 21:21 - Jun 4 with 2169 views | tractordownsouth |
| Southgate on 20:59 - Jun 4 by Bobsthename |
Loving the Brighton manager Graham Potter he has been a breath of fresh air for Brighton fans and he has to be a must as Southgates successor top candidate in my eyes . |
He's done okay but he's not an elite manager like the OP said. I'm not arguing that Southgate is elite, but there's not a realistic alternative so far above his level that would make it worth sacking our 2nd most successful manager of all time. | |
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| Southgate on 21:23 - Jun 4 with 2155 views | Veggie |
Done nothing at League level so can’t really be seen as an elite manager. |  | | |
| Southgate on 21:28 - Jun 4 with 2144 views | cressi |
| Southgate on 21:21 - Jun 4 by tractordownsouth |
He's done okay but he's not an elite manager like the OP said. I'm not arguing that Southgate is elite, but there's not a realistic alternative so far above his level that would make it worth sacking our 2nd most successful manager of all time. |
Opinions my view in the world cup when we lost to Croatia
We played absolutely nobody and lost to the first side who were semi decent as for Germany in the euros at home Germany were poor hardly the side of the past as people said Italy never qualified for this world cup gave us a 1 -0 lead but we still lost it by the way he was great at club level Not | | | |
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| Southgate on 21:37 - Jun 4 with 2113 views | jeera |
| Southgate on 21:28 - Jun 4 by cressi |
Opinions my view in the world cup when we lost to Croatia
We played absolutely nobody and lost to the first side who were semi decent as for Germany in the euros at home Germany were poor hardly the side of the past as people said Italy never qualified for this world cup gave us a 1 -0 lead but we still lost it by the way he was great at club level Not |
And the many years previously?
Where we achieved feck all but yet...?
What is your point?
No one has claimed Southgate is 'elite'. You've decided he isn't and have challenged people to make an impossible argument on your own terms using your own rules.
He's been doing all right and you have no idea how we would have been doing without him.
You probably wanted McCarthy out too didn't you, with no foresight to what might befall us next. | |
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| Southgate on 00:13 - Jun 5 with 1949 views | tractordownsouth |
| Southgate on 21:28 - Jun 4 by cressi |
Opinions my view in the world cup when we lost to Croatia
We played absolutely nobody and lost to the first side who were semi decent as for Germany in the euros at home Germany were poor hardly the side of the past as people said Italy never qualified for this world cup gave us a 1 -0 lead but we still lost it by the way he was great at club level Not |
The idea that England have been particularly lucky with tournament paths doesn’t stand up to evidence though.
Just a few examples…
Brazil won the 2002 World Cup by beating Belgium, England, Turkey and Germany.
Italy won the 2006 World Cup after beating Ukraine and Australia in normal time - they won the semi final against Germany in ET and beat France on penalties.
Portugal won Euro 2016 by winning 1 game in normal time
In all of those examples, the teams won only once or twice against a big team in their tournament victories, there are very few examples of teams beating big hitters all the way through. England beat Germany in normal time and were a couple of penalties away from beating Italy - if Rashford and co had scored then the narrative would be very different. Just seems to be classic England negativity. [Post edited 5 Jun 2022 0:14]
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| Southgate on 00:42 - Jun 5 with 1918 views | You_Bloo_Right |
It was a dull end-of-season game in the international equivalent of the Johnstone's Paint Trophy.
Southgate's done well overall I think and it seems pointless judging him on this evening's game. |  |
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| Southgate on 04:16 - Jun 5 with 1829 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
He will be judged by Christmas, although apparently the FA have judged him enough already to give him the following Euros. He has had a good amount of time and has a very talented squad. He’s clearly a standup bloke and represents us very well.
Some aspects he excels in
- Handling of the media
- Bringing the squad together
- Obviously his record is a lot better than most of the recent rubbish
However, context here. Two cake walk draws (but you can only beat what’s in front of you). In 2018 I can forgive him to a certain extent for not adapting, however, the Euro final I can’t. Sort of proved he hadn’t grown very much in the biggest moment.
It was there to be won, we will never have a tournament like that again, everything was set up and every single person watching that game could see what was happening after the 20th minute. His personality almost shines through in terms of lack of in game tactical ability. Pragmatic, dependable, safe and just not proactive. I will still never get putting Sancho and Saka up there in that situation either. Bringing Rashford on I was ok with giving his United penalty record but still was introduced so late. We should have been running at that back line all day.
Anyway, I guess we will find out if he has learned any lessons from all that this winter. I took a look at the draw and whatever way you shake it up, looks like to me we would have a far more difficult game earlier in the knockout stages this time round. [Post edited 5 Jun 2022 4:26]
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| Southgate on 05:43 - Jun 5 with 1795 views | textbackup |
| Southgate on 04:16 - Jun 5 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
He will be judged by Christmas, although apparently the FA have judged him enough already to give him the following Euros. He has had a good amount of time and has a very talented squad. He’s clearly a standup bloke and represents us very well.
Some aspects he excels in
- Handling of the media
- Bringing the squad together
- Obviously his record is a lot better than most of the recent rubbish
However, context here. Two cake walk draws (but you can only beat what’s in front of you). In 2018 I can forgive him to a certain extent for not adapting, however, the Euro final I can’t. Sort of proved he hadn’t grown very much in the biggest moment.
It was there to be won, we will never have a tournament like that again, everything was set up and every single person watching that game could see what was happening after the 20th minute. His personality almost shines through in terms of lack of in game tactical ability. Pragmatic, dependable, safe and just not proactive. I will still never get putting Sancho and Saka up there in that situation either. Bringing Rashford on I was ok with giving his United penalty record but still was introduced so late. We should have been running at that back line all day.
Anyway, I guess we will find out if he has learned any lessons from all that this winter. I took a look at the draw and whatever way you shake it up, looks like to me we would have a far more difficult game earlier in the knockout stages this time round. [Post edited 5 Jun 2022 4:26]
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absolutely agree with that.
walked out of that final so angry that we'd let them win that, was there for the taking |  |
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| Southgate on 06:58 - Jun 5 with 1742 views | PioneerBlue |
Elite manager - No.
Yes man - Who is forcing GS’s hand on football decisions to warrant that football trope.
Experience international coach - Yes
GS football for England isn’t gung-ho, isnt 1990s England, it’s effective compared with most recent times. GS has consistently looked at and promoted best of young talents.
The game against Hungary was an end of season non-event, he was looking at alternative form players based on the starting XI. If anything it shows how little depth there is in the second XI and that group needs more internal experience from games like this.
If you want to have a go at Gareth Southgate for having a look at young form players, let’s level criticism at Justin or Bowen (who played well) or Bellingham or James for not doing more to take the opportunity afforded to them. We could also look at Kane, Rice and McGuire, shall we drop them for being off their game after 50 odd games this season?
I’m happy with what GS has done with England, we have been building, their is an identity, and we can look forward to a World Cup with real expectation not that based on unfounded sense of entitlement like all tournaments 90s, 00s. [Post edited 5 Jun 2022 8:34]
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| Southgate on 08:24 - Jun 5 with 1620 views | RIPbobby |
He was wrong to bring on Phillips who has essentially been injured all season. |  | | |
| Southgate on 08:44 - Jun 5 with 1576 views | HighgateBlue |
| Southgate on 21:07 - Jun 4 by BloomBlue |
I never understand comments like this, England never won anything when Sor Bob was manager I assume you think Sir Bob wasnt an elite manager and was just a yes man. |
I think it's fair at least to consider Sir Bobby's club CV as well, is it not? His record with Ipswich needs no introduction. Then leagues with PSV, Porto, a few cups with Barcelona. What has Southgate achieved at the club level? A 29.8% win record with Boro, and that's literally it. |  | | |
| Southgate on 09:48 - Jun 5 with 1473 views | TractorCam |
| Southgate on 08:44 - Jun 5 by HighgateBlue |
I think it's fair at least to consider Sir Bobby's club CV as well, is it not? His record with Ipswich needs no introduction. Then leagues with PSV, Porto, a few cups with Barcelona. What has Southgate achieved at the club level? A 29.8% win record with Boro, and that's literally it. |
And yet Southgate has already achieved more in his 6 years for England than Bobby did in 8, that's the point. |  |
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| Southgate on 10:59 - Jun 5 with 1404 views | HighgateBlue |
| Southgate on 09:48 - Jun 5 by TractorCam |
And yet Southgate has already achieved more in his 6 years for England than Bobby did in 8, that's the point. |
That's not the point that I was answering. The point that I was answering was an implication that in assessing whether Sir Bobby was an elite manager it was reasonable to confine that assessment to his record with England, which it obviously isn't. Having said that, he did a fine job with England, and I find it hard to compare with Southgate.
Bobby was rather robbed in 1986, and you have to remember that in 1988 the Euros were a very very different tournament. It's fair to acknowledge that we lost to Ireland, but that tournament only had 8 teams in it, and lots of big hitters. I wonder how Southgate would have fared in a Group against a Netherlands side with Gullit and Van Basten in it, and a very strong USSR side. Those two teams were of course the finalists having knocked out West Germany and Italy.
Southgate has also done a fine job with England thus far, I have no qualms at all about admitting that. His record in qualifying has been exemplary (and for those of us that remember the early 1990s, and indeed the 1970s (which I don't), that cannot be taken for granted. He also gave the nation a cathartic win against Germany, a nation whose rivalry with England needs no introduction.
It is also important not to get carried away, mind. In the World Cup in 2018 we lost against Belgium twice, lost against Croatia, drew with colombia before winning on pens, beat sweden, panama and tunisia. In other words, we won the games we really should have won, and lost all three games against the teams that might be considered to be in our 'league'.
The 2020 Euros: we topped our group, which is all you can ask, although croatia were weaker than previously, and we couldn't beat scotland. As I say, the Germany win, and by 2 clear goals, was a real highlight, but again Ukraine and Denmark were games you would expect us to win. The final was then, of course, a real disappointment against Italy. Italy beat Portugal, Belgium, Spain and England in order to win the trophy. Yes, you can only beat what's in front of you, but we've never shown tournament form indicating we're capable of reeling off 4 wins against 'proper' teams like that. It's great to be able to be canny in tournament situations, and Southgate has shown a way to get to semi-finals and finals, but I think that slightly flatters the bare form of the results. | | | |
| Southgate on 14:00 - Jun 5 with 1271 views | stonojnr |
| Southgate on 09:48 - Jun 5 by TractorCam |
And yet Southgate has already achieved more in his 6 years for England than Bobby did in 8, that's the point. |
do you think Southgate would have done as well in Bobbys era ? or vice versa ?
its an interesting point what does success for Southgate mean now for future tournaments, is getting to the finals of a major competition now the expectation, the minimum ? what will the noises from the press and fans be like if England dont get to the final. | | | |
| Southgate on 14:29 - Jun 5 with 1244 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| Southgate on 10:59 - Jun 5 by HighgateBlue |
That's not the point that I was answering. The point that I was answering was an implication that in assessing whether Sir Bobby was an elite manager it was reasonable to confine that assessment to his record with England, which it obviously isn't. Having said that, he did a fine job with England, and I find it hard to compare with Southgate.
Bobby was rather robbed in 1986, and you have to remember that in 1988 the Euros were a very very different tournament. It's fair to acknowledge that we lost to Ireland, but that tournament only had 8 teams in it, and lots of big hitters. I wonder how Southgate would have fared in a Group against a Netherlands side with Gullit and Van Basten in it, and a very strong USSR side. Those two teams were of course the finalists having knocked out West Germany and Italy.
Southgate has also done a fine job with England thus far, I have no qualms at all about admitting that. His record in qualifying has been exemplary (and for those of us that remember the early 1990s, and indeed the 1970s (which I don't), that cannot be taken for granted. He also gave the nation a cathartic win against Germany, a nation whose rivalry with England needs no introduction.
It is also important not to get carried away, mind. In the World Cup in 2018 we lost against Belgium twice, lost against Croatia, drew with colombia before winning on pens, beat sweden, panama and tunisia. In other words, we won the games we really should have won, and lost all three games against the teams that might be considered to be in our 'league'.
The 2020 Euros: we topped our group, which is all you can ask, although croatia were weaker than previously, and we couldn't beat scotland. As I say, the Germany win, and by 2 clear goals, was a real highlight, but again Ukraine and Denmark were games you would expect us to win. The final was then, of course, a real disappointment against Italy. Italy beat Portugal, Belgium, Spain and England in order to win the trophy. Yes, you can only beat what's in front of you, but we've never shown tournament form indicating we're capable of reeling off 4 wins against 'proper' teams like that. It's great to be able to be canny in tournament situations, and Southgate has shown a way to get to semi-finals and finals, but I think that slightly flatters the bare form of the results. |
Exactly. His biggest strength is ability in tournaments and he has heaps of experience of tournament football through his earlier roles at younger age groups.
Wasn’t impressed at all in Russia, more so last Summer but we obviously should have won it. Qatar will be fascinating because we should be just about at a peak shouldn’t we? | | | |
| Southgate on 15:17 - Jun 5 with 1199 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Southgate on 08:24 - Jun 5 by RIPbobby |
He was wrong to bring on Phillips who has essentially been injured all season. |
If he’s done it for Southgate before a year ago he will be in the fringe. Another issue with him. | | | |
| Southgate on 15:20 - Jun 5 with 1190 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Southgate on 14:29 - Jun 5 by PrideOfTheEast |
Exactly. His biggest strength is ability in tournaments and he has heaps of experience of tournament football through his earlier roles at younger age groups.
Wasn’t impressed at all in Russia, more so last Summer but we obviously should have won it. Qatar will be fascinating because we should be just about at a peak shouldn’t we? |
9 of the 11 are already on the team sheet though!
Russia I don’t think too much was expected which is why it was a hell of a ride but we weren’t convincing. As much as I disagree with it, I actually think when it come it a winter World Cup will be quite good. [Post edited 5 Jun 2022 15:22]
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| Southgate on 15:28 - Jun 5 with 1173 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Southgate on 15:20 - Jun 5 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
9 of the 11 are already on the team sheet though!
Russia I don’t think too much was expected which is why it was a hell of a ride but we weren’t convincing. As much as I disagree with it, I actually think when it come it a winter World Cup will be quite good. [Post edited 5 Jun 2022 15:22]
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Is that comment meant as a criticism of Southgate for picking a consistent team or praise that he knows his team?
There is no doubt that he has done very well except in the minds of those who think we should be winning everything. There is good reason why England have only one tournament win on their CV and it isn't bad luck or poor management. Every tournament plenty of England fans seem to think we should win it.
One poor performance and result in the Nations League does not change what Southgate has done so far in tournaments. Who was the last England manager who didn't incur abuse from our media/fans for underperforming their expectations? The issue is more with the level of expectation than performance. |  |
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| Southgate on 15:54 - Jun 5 with 1153 views | OsborneOneNil |
| Southgate on 04:16 - Jun 5 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
He will be judged by Christmas, although apparently the FA have judged him enough already to give him the following Euros. He has had a good amount of time and has a very talented squad. He’s clearly a standup bloke and represents us very well.
Some aspects he excels in
- Handling of the media
- Bringing the squad together
- Obviously his record is a lot better than most of the recent rubbish
However, context here. Two cake walk draws (but you can only beat what’s in front of you). In 2018 I can forgive him to a certain extent for not adapting, however, the Euro final I can’t. Sort of proved he hadn’t grown very much in the biggest moment.
It was there to be won, we will never have a tournament like that again, everything was set up and every single person watching that game could see what was happening after the 20th minute. His personality almost shines through in terms of lack of in game tactical ability. Pragmatic, dependable, safe and just not proactive. I will still never get putting Sancho and Saka up there in that situation either. Bringing Rashford on I was ok with giving his United penalty record but still was introduced so late. We should have been running at that back line all day.
Anyway, I guess we will find out if he has learned any lessons from all that this winter. I took a look at the draw and whatever way you shake it up, looks like to me we would have a far more difficult game earlier in the knockout stages this time round. [Post edited 5 Jun 2022 4:26]
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Correct. He failed in that final.
I do fear he’s too ‘safe’.
However, you can’t argue with a semi and a final, no matter who we had to beat. |  | | |
| Southgate on 15:56 - Jun 5 with 1148 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Southgate on 15:28 - Jun 5 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Is that comment meant as a criticism of Southgate for picking a consistent team or praise that he knows his team?
There is no doubt that he has done very well except in the minds of those who think we should be winning everything. There is good reason why England have only one tournament win on their CV and it isn't bad luck or poor management. Every tournament plenty of England fans seem to think we should win it.
One poor performance and result in the Nations League does not change what Southgate has done so far in tournaments. Who was the last England manager who didn't incur abuse from our media/fans for underperforming their expectations? The issue is more with the level of expectation than performance. |
I think there’s a balance at international level. You don’t want wholesale changes tournament to tournament but he puts a little too much stock into what players have done before rather than current form sometimes. Phillips shouldn’t really be near the starting 11 at the moment. | | | |
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