| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) 08:52 - Oct 6 with 1748 views | NthQldITFC |
Starts at 08:47 on the Today programme on Radio 4 if anyone wants to listen back. [Post edited 6 Oct 2022 9:23]
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:10 - Oct 6 with 1358 views | StokieBlue |
Such a nebulous term.
I'm sure the Tories won't want to discuss things like mortgage rate growth which hit 6.07% on average for a 2 year fixed rate yesterday.
I'm sure they will instead focus on the myth of infinite growth with finite resources.
SB |  | | |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:20 - Oct 6 with 1338 views | NthQldITFC |
One of the contributors was Kate Raworth, of Doughnut Economics, which somebody posted here recently:
https://www.kateraworth.com/doughnut/
Makes a lot of sense to me, as a complete innocent on the subject.
I made a few notes from the discussion:
GDP measures flow but ignores stocks (social, natural, waste).
A Cold War aim in all-out competition with the Soviet Union.
Pursuit of 'Growth' of GDP as an aim destroys things we depend upon which are not in the GDP equation.
If 'Growth' is the absolute goal, 'Health' (natural, physical, mental, equality) is damaged collaterally.
Need to measure 'Health' of the system, not 'Growth' of the system, as a lot of countries are starting to do. UK is behind the times.
If 'Health' is the absolute goal, some growth will happen naturally.
This 'Growth' as a goal mantra seems utterly childish and incompatible with both humanity and the environment to me. It only seems to feed human predators who care nothing for the future. | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:31 - Oct 6 with 1319 views | Guthrum |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:20 - Oct 6 by NthQldITFC |
One of the contributors was Kate Raworth, of Doughnut Economics, which somebody posted here recently:
https://www.kateraworth.com/doughnut/
Makes a lot of sense to me, as a complete innocent on the subject.
I made a few notes from the discussion:
GDP measures flow but ignores stocks (social, natural, waste).
A Cold War aim in all-out competition with the Soviet Union.
Pursuit of 'Growth' of GDP as an aim destroys things we depend upon which are not in the GDP equation.
If 'Growth' is the absolute goal, 'Health' (natural, physical, mental, equality) is damaged collaterally.
Need to measure 'Health' of the system, not 'Growth' of the system, as a lot of countries are starting to do. UK is behind the times.
If 'Health' is the absolute goal, some growth will happen naturally.
This 'Growth' as a goal mantra seems utterly childish and incompatible with both humanity and the environment to me. It only seems to feed human predators who care nothing for the future. |
Growth is popular because GDP is (or can be) a relatively easily measured metric.
Moreover, without continual growth, the illusion cannot be maintained of unending income from speculation on share prices in stock markets (unless resorting to dark arts such as short selling). Which is the core foundation of modern capitalism - rather than running business itself, which on the largest scales has been lost to other parts of the world (with lower employee costs and working rights). |  |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:34 - Oct 6 with 1305 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:31 - Oct 6 by Guthrum |
Growth is popular because GDP is (or can be) a relatively easily measured metric.
Moreover, without continual growth, the illusion cannot be maintained of unending income from speculation on share prices in stock markets (unless resorting to dark arts such as short selling). Which is the core foundation of modern capitalism - rather than running business itself, which on the largest scales has been lost to other parts of the world (with lower employee costs and working rights). |
Now try telling that to the electorate! |  |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:57 - Oct 6 with 1276 views | Guthrum |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:34 - Oct 6 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Now try telling that to the electorate! |
I'm not anti-capitalist. Just think it should return to its early principles, in which stock markets were venues to raise funding for business and profitability/dividends were more important than share price. Or, indeed the taking of fees for the provision of share dealing related services. | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:01 - Oct 6 with 1265 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:34 - Oct 6 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Now try telling that to the electorate! |
Basically the world economic Ponzi scheme will collapse, leading to war, famine and a severe shortage of Hobnobs.. |  |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:06 - Oct 6 with 1255 views | NthQldITFC |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:31 - Oct 6 by Guthrum |
Growth is popular because GDP is (or can be) a relatively easily measured metric.
Moreover, without continual growth, the illusion cannot be maintained of unending income from speculation on share prices in stock markets (unless resorting to dark arts such as short selling). Which is the core foundation of modern capitalism - rather than running business itself, which on the largest scales has been lost to other parts of the world (with lower employee costs and working rights). |
So would it be fair to conclude that what you are saying is that the whole underpinning economic mechanism of the Western world (and now pretty much the whole world) is a great big lie, dependent upon continuous growth which logically, in a finite world, has to end at some point.
And as it squeezes up against those finite limits, it destroys everything in its path, including its creators and maintainers?
Why do we delude ourselves? | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:12 - Oct 6 with 1240 views | Guthrum |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:06 - Oct 6 by NthQldITFC |
So would it be fair to conclude that what you are saying is that the whole underpinning economic mechanism of the Western world (and now pretty much the whole world) is a great big lie, dependent upon continuous growth which logically, in a finite world, has to end at some point.
And as it squeezes up against those finite limits, it destroys everything in its path, including its creators and maintainers?
Why do we delude ourselves? |
Because people want to keep on making money out of it (have to, in some cases, to maintain important social structures like pension schemes), for as long as possible.
Also, I doubt it will fail entirely, just recede for a bit to a new. lower starting point. Not that it will be a comfortable process (c.f. the Great Depression). | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:14 - Oct 6 with 1234 views | DanTheMan |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:12 - Oct 6 by Guthrum |
Because people want to keep on making money out of it (have to, in some cases, to maintain important social structures like pension schemes), for as long as possible.
Also, I doubt it will fail entirely, just recede for a bit to a new. lower starting point. Not that it will be a comfortable process (c.f. the Great Depression). |
Also doesn't help that humans beings are pretty bad at thinking about long term consequences of their actions. It takes effort to move beyond the short term. |  |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:18 - Oct 6 with 1227 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:14 - Oct 6 by DanTheMan |
Also doesn't help that humans beings are pretty bad at thinking about long term consequences of their actions. It takes effort to move beyond the short term. |
Indeed! The irony is that, even in the 21st century, we are still victims of the same evolutionary processes that made us who we are in the first place! | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:20 - Oct 6 with 1223 views | NthQldITFC |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:12 - Oct 6 by Guthrum |
Because people want to keep on making money out of it (have to, in some cases, to maintain important social structures like pension schemes), for as long as possible.
Also, I doubt it will fail entirely, just recede for a bit to a new. lower starting point. Not that it will be a comfortable process (c.f. the Great Depression). |
I wonder, if there was no such thing as money, how many humans the world would be able to provide a comfortable living for, with existing (or imminent) technology and with the requirement to immediately stabilise carbon emissions, halt habitat destruction, and generally protect what remains of the flora and fauna we haven't so far destroyed.
It's the concept of money itself, that's the problem, isn't it? | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:23 - Oct 6 with 1216 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:20 - Oct 6 by NthQldITFC |
I wonder, if there was no such thing as money, how many humans the world would be able to provide a comfortable living for, with existing (or imminent) technology and with the requirement to immediately stabilise carbon emissions, halt habitat destruction, and generally protect what remains of the flora and fauna we haven't so far destroyed.
It's the concept of money itself, that's the problem, isn't it? |
It's more the concept of credit that's the problem I'd say - being able to spend money you don't have, with the promise to pay it back with interest leaves enormous scope for speculation with other people's money... | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:25 - Oct 6 with 1212 views | NthQldITFC |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:23 - Oct 6 by Ewan_Oozami |
It's more the concept of credit that's the problem I'd say - being able to spend money you don't have, with the promise to pay it back with interest leaves enormous scope for speculation with other people's money... |
Or at least the interest part of it. | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:35 - Oct 6 with 1202 views | Guthrum |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:23 - Oct 6 by Ewan_Oozami |
It's more the concept of credit that's the problem I'd say - being able to spend money you don't have, with the promise to pay it back with interest leaves enormous scope for speculation with other people's money... |
However, without credit, people who have ideas or skills but no cash are unable to achieve anything which has setup costs or expenses prior to any income. It's a concept as old as human civilisation.
Lacking the ability to charge interest, there is little incentive to risk capital by lending money. Nor any reward for doing so.
The answer is proper regulation. | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:44 - Oct 6 with 1189 views | leitrimblue |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:20 - Oct 6 by NthQldITFC |
I wonder, if there was no such thing as money, how many humans the world would be able to provide a comfortable living for, with existing (or imminent) technology and with the requirement to immediately stabilise carbon emissions, halt habitat destruction, and generally protect what remains of the flora and fauna we haven't so far destroyed.
It's the concept of money itself, that's the problem, isn't it? |
I think the problem is pre money (iron ageish), goes back to the formation of elite groups over the community. (Mid neolithic). I would suggest it was driven by the introduction of farming and the gathering of wealth, land etc of the individual (family)over the previous shared wealth of the community (tribe) in pre farming hunter gatherer societies.
I'm gonna mention it again but the classic anthropology book- The Original Affluent Society by Marshall Sahlins is a great read (and great introduction to subject) and looks deeply into the shared wealth of hunter gatherer societies. |  | | |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 11:08 - Oct 6 with 1157 views | XYZ |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:20 - Oct 6 by NthQldITFC |
I wonder, if there was no such thing as money, how many humans the world would be able to provide a comfortable living for, with existing (or imminent) technology and with the requirement to immediately stabilise carbon emissions, halt habitat destruction, and generally protect what remains of the flora and fauna we haven't so far destroyed.
It's the concept of money itself, that's the problem, isn't it? |
Personal ownership of land.
It's utter nonsense as a concept and massively damaging in practice.
Aboriginal aussies have the right idea. The land owns us. |  | | |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 11:13 - Oct 6 with 1140 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:10 - Oct 6 by StokieBlue |
Such a nebulous term.
I'm sure the Tories won't want to discuss things like mortgage rate growth which hit 6.07% on average for a 2 year fixed rate yesterday.
I'm sure they will instead focus on the myth of infinite growth with finite resources.
SB |
Quite. I wonder if Truss has inadvertently hit on something with this slogan that could provide an opportunity for the people she's against. Growth at all costs has the potential to be disastrous, but people opposing it have struggled to have a simple identity. I'd be a proud member of an anti-growth coalition as long as it's goal was sustainability. |  |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 11:29 - Oct 6 with 1106 views | NthQldITFC |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:44 - Oct 6 by leitrimblue |
I think the problem is pre money (iron ageish), goes back to the formation of elite groups over the community. (Mid neolithic). I would suggest it was driven by the introduction of farming and the gathering of wealth, land etc of the individual (family)over the previous shared wealth of the community (tribe) in pre farming hunter gatherer societies.
I'm gonna mention it again but the classic anthropology book- The Original Affluent Society by Marshall Sahlins is a great read (and great introduction to subject) and looks deeply into the shared wealth of hunter gatherer societies. |
That's my take on it too. Happy-go-lucky hunter-gatherers who could only own what they could carry, became miserable and suspicious wealth-hoarders when they put down roots to farm and stockpile.
That's when our species went wrong, and the rest of nature from the great apes (except us) down, would be laughing at our stupidity if it wasn't for the fact that we're destroying everything. | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 13:01 - Oct 6 with 1029 views | leitrimblue |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 11:29 - Oct 6 by NthQldITFC |
That's my take on it too. Happy-go-lucky hunter-gatherers who could only own what they could carry, became miserable and suspicious wealth-hoarders when they put down roots to farm and stockpile.
That's when our species went wrong, and the rest of nature from the great apes (except us) down, would be laughing at our stupidity if it wasn't for the fact that we're destroying everything. |
Exactly, we've spent thousands of years celebrating and rewarding those who stockpile the most of the worlds resources.
It's gonna take a serious change in culture, but as you mention above, i think its time to look at the health of the system rather then the growth.
Hunter gatherer groups are often a great way to look at the alternatives to ownership and stockpiling of resources.
Often the things a individual owns or consider their own are what they are wearing, clothes and jewellery etc. Everything else is there for everybody in the community to have equal access to and use off | | | |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 13:37 - Oct 6 with 982 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 10:35 - Oct 6 by Guthrum |
However, without credit, people who have ideas or skills but no cash are unable to achieve anything which has setup costs or expenses prior to any income. It's a concept as old as human civilisation.
Lacking the ability to charge interest, there is little incentive to risk capital by lending money. Nor any reward for doing so.
The answer is proper regulation. |
Or, no money and people just engaging in mutually supportive and beneficial outcomes because we are social beings regardless of financial renumeration. | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 13:41 - Oct 6 with 974 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 11:13 - Oct 6 by Swansea_Blue |
Quite. I wonder if Truss has inadvertently hit on something with this slogan that could provide an opportunity for the people she's against. Growth at all costs has the potential to be disastrous, but people opposing it have struggled to have a simple identity. I'd be a proud member of an anti-growth coalition as long as it's goal was sustainability. |
As I said before, as much as I agree, good luck with making anti growth a vote winner. | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 13:59 - Oct 6 with 947 views | Guthrum |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 13:37 - Oct 6 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Or, no money and people just engaging in mutually supportive and beneficial outcomes because we are social beings regardless of financial renumeration. |
There was a good Radio 4 series on this a few years ago.
Without money (as some sort of easily portable and transferrable value token), long-distance trade becomes virtually impossible. If it didn't exist, we'd have to invent it.
Wealth accumulation happens even in non-monetary societies, anyway. Mankind had kings long before they had cash. | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 14:22 - Oct 6 with 921 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 13:41 - Oct 6 by BanksterDebtSlave |
As I said before, as much as I agree, good luck with making anti growth a vote winner. |
Yeah, fair point. It's baked in to the system and conversation isn't it? | |
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| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 15:56 - Oct 6 with 863 views | HARRY10 |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 13:41 - Oct 6 by BanksterDebtSlave |
As I said before, as much as I agree, good luck with making anti growth a vote winner. |
I don't think pointing out the dangers of unsustainable growth is a vote loser.
Truss is merely the tool for which pro Brexit sh ite is being peddled i.e. get rid of pesky regulation by leaving the EU, then UK businesses can thrive through their ability to produce goods cheaper. One that rather overlooks the fact that plenty of EU based companies adhering to these regulations thrive and are successful.
And I am sure those with an IQ into double figures will note the irony of this dimwit bleating about being free of EU regulation, when the very act of leaving the EU piled on regulation to an horrendous level - customs checks.
Trying to drag the UK back to some glorious era, pre the Factories Act, with 14 hour days, polluted rivers and having the welfare state non existent will fail before it even gets off the ground. The first tentative toe dipped into the water a fortnight ago saw the markets recoiling in horror.
And the idea that you can starve the sick and disabled into unsuitable jobs to make up the numbers is similarly doomed. There are more complex reasons for the UK's skills shortage, which are in the main actually caused by years of similar idiotic delusions.
However, the real danger is in how much damage these cranks will cause before they are put in straitjackets (for the time) being). | | | |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 09:39 - Oct 7 with 701 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Excellent discussion on 'Growth' on R4 at the moment. (n/t) on 15:56 - Oct 6 by HARRY10 |
I don't think pointing out the dangers of unsustainable growth is a vote loser.
Truss is merely the tool for which pro Brexit sh ite is being peddled i.e. get rid of pesky regulation by leaving the EU, then UK businesses can thrive through their ability to produce goods cheaper. One that rather overlooks the fact that plenty of EU based companies adhering to these regulations thrive and are successful.
And I am sure those with an IQ into double figures will note the irony of this dimwit bleating about being free of EU regulation, when the very act of leaving the EU piled on regulation to an horrendous level - customs checks.
Trying to drag the UK back to some glorious era, pre the Factories Act, with 14 hour days, polluted rivers and having the welfare state non existent will fail before it even gets off the ground. The first tentative toe dipped into the water a fortnight ago saw the markets recoiling in horror.
And the idea that you can starve the sick and disabled into unsuitable jobs to make up the numbers is similarly doomed. There are more complex reasons for the UK's skills shortage, which are in the main actually caused by years of similar idiotic delusions.
However, the real danger is in how much damage these cranks will cause before they are put in straitjackets (for the time) being). |
Have to agree with you H, this is indeed the Brexit they wanted. The Singapore model - low tax, low regulation, small state. Anyone who thought it was a finger up to globalisation and allow us to have more control and state intervention was seriously misled. | | | |
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