| The West Bank on 09:50 - Oct 21 with 1686 views | redrickstuhaart |
So important that people read and are aware of this stuff. Especially those who got upset when some of us (whilst condemning Hamas attacks) felt it was essential to reference the behaviour which has created an environment where Hammas' ideology can flourish. |  | |  |
| The West Bank on 09:52 - Oct 21 with 1681 views | Herbivore |
As I said on the other thread, Hamas aren't the only terrorists operating in Israel and Palestine. Shocking stuff. |  |
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| The West Bank on 10:17 - Oct 21 with 1633 views | WeWereZombies |
I had seen that Bedouin report from The Guardian already mentioned on AlJazeera but reading through the more detailed account gives emphasis to the injustices being perpetrated there. That Israelis are also being attacked by settlers gives credibility to the view that the Israeli administration are complicit in these crimes.
Also, that some Israelis are standing up for justice must be remembered. I have had some brief communication this week from a Tunisian friend who has spent time in Jerusalem and the West Bank a year or so ago, that she can have empathy for the antisemitism that settlers experienced before they came to Israel goes to show the depth of emotion and the tragic demands that are drawn from people in these circumstances. In her words 'people hardly sleep, everyone has bags under their eyes when you live there.' |  |
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| The West Bank on 10:49 - Oct 21 with 1608 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The West Bank on 09:52 - Oct 21 by Herbivore |
As I said on the other thread, Hamas aren't the only terrorists operating in Israel and Palestine. Shocking stuff. |
Itamar Ben-Gvi, Israel’s Security Minister and one of the far right religious fanatics who are propping up Netanyahu as part of his coalition, has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre.
As a youth he was a member of Moledet, a party which advocated transferring Arabs out of Israel, and then joined the youth movement of the even more radical Kach and Kahane Chai party, which was eventually designated as a terrorist organisation and outlawed by the Israeli government.
The current Israeli government and a Hamas have a symbiotic relationship. |  |
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| The West Bank on 11:09 - Oct 21 with 1566 views | Herbivore |
| The West Bank on 10:49 - Oct 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Itamar Ben-Gvi, Israel’s Security Minister and one of the far right religious fanatics who are propping up Netanyahu as part of his coalition, has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre.
As a youth he was a member of Moledet, a party which advocated transferring Arabs out of Israel, and then joined the youth movement of the even more radical Kach and Kahane Chai party, which was eventually designated as a terrorist organisation and outlawed by the Israeli government.
The current Israeli government and a Hamas have a symbiotic relationship. |
Yes, the extremists on both sides are committed to each other's extermination (or at least expulsion) and the actions they perpetrate based on their ideology helps to justify the ideology of the other. | |
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| The West Bank on 11:38 - Oct 21 with 1530 views | Darth_Koont |
| The West Bank on 11:09 - Oct 21 by Herbivore |
Yes, the extremists on both sides are committed to each other's extermination (or at least expulsion) and the actions they perpetrate based on their ideology helps to justify the ideology of the other. |
Indeed. Which makes the UK and US’s rallying around one extremist side over the other very depresssing.
At a time when de-escalation and dialogue is the only path towards peace for both Israelis and Palestinians, I worry that this is an increasingly ideological position and these are battle lines being drawn. |  |
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| The West Bank on 11:46 - Oct 21 with 1507 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The West Bank on 11:09 - Oct 21 by Herbivore |
Yes, the extremists on both sides are committed to each other's extermination (or at least expulsion) and the actions they perpetrate based on their ideology helps to justify the ideology of the other. |
The Yanks are the key to a solution but they seem to bury their head in the sand re the Israeli fascist agenda. |  |
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| The West Bank on 12:09 - Oct 21 with 1453 views | WeWereZombies |
| The West Bank on 11:09 - Oct 21 by Herbivore |
Yes, the extremists on both sides are committed to each other's extermination (or at least expulsion) and the actions they perpetrate based on their ideology helps to justify the ideology of the other. |
Well no, it is all too easy to get drawn into rabbit holes and think that identifying one or two names gives a path for a solution by catching them and locking them up or exterminating them.
My, admittedly second hand, knowledge of the region is that everyone gets pulled along by narratives and has to fight to keep an independent mind, if they even find that possible.
Many politicians, religious leaders, military personnel and media commentators are complicit in the persistence of this downward spiral. It seems that bad action and bad news has more traction than the good. It is not everyone and there are diamonds everywhere but things have not gotten so bad just because of a few hotheads. | |
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| The West Bank on 12:29 - Oct 21 with 1426 views | Herbivore |
| The West Bank on 12:09 - Oct 21 by WeWereZombies |
Well no, it is all too easy to get drawn into rabbit holes and think that identifying one or two names gives a path for a solution by catching them and locking them up or exterminating them.
My, admittedly second hand, knowledge of the region is that everyone gets pulled along by narratives and has to fight to keep an independent mind, if they even find that possible.
Many politicians, religious leaders, military personnel and media commentators are complicit in the persistence of this downward spiral. It seems that bad action and bad news has more traction than the good. It is not everyone and there are diamonds everywhere but things have not gotten so bad just because of a few hotheads. |
I haven't said it's just a few individuals? | |
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| The West Bank on 13:10 - Oct 21 with 1369 views | WeWereZombies |
| The West Bank on 12:29 - Oct 21 by Herbivore |
I haven't said it's just a few individuals? |
But you were replying to a post that named names and you started with 'yes'. I was listening to 'The News Quiz' just now (very balanced presentation from Jewish Andy Zaltzman) and the ITV newscaster was talking about Netanyahu my low expectations were reinforced both by the impression that the Israeli leader has been 'off kilter' for a long while and that he is propped up by voters who see nothing wrong with the clear out of northern Gaza and others who want to make it permanent. | |
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| The West Bank on 13:14 - Oct 21 with 1363 views | Herbivore |
| The West Bank on 13:10 - Oct 21 by WeWereZombies |
But you were replying to a post that named names and you started with 'yes'. I was listening to 'The News Quiz' just now (very balanced presentation from Jewish Andy Zaltzman) and the ITV newscaster was talking about Netanyahu my low expectations were reinforced both by the impression that the Israeli leader has been 'off kilter' for a long while and that he is propped up by voters who see nothing wrong with the clear out of northern Gaza and others who want to make it permanent. |
There were quite a few words after the 'yes' which should have made it clear that I was agreeing with the point about Hamas and the Israeli government having a symbiotic relationship. I never suggested that it's just a few individuals who are the problem. | |
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| The West Bank on 13:19 - Oct 21 with 1353 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The West Bank on 11:46 - Oct 21 by Lord_Lucan |
The Yanks are the key to a solution but they seem to bury their head in the sand re the Israeli fascist agenda. |
Iran need to rein it in too, they’ve already had their proxies in Lebanon attacking Israeli forces near the border. Real danger of this becoming regionalised.
Hamas could release the rest of their hostages but I suspect Isreal would go ahead with their ground invasion regardless. I don’t see anybody stepping down sadly. | | | |
| The West Bank on 13:54 - Oct 21 with 1307 views | WeWereZombies |
| The West Bank on 13:14 - Oct 21 by Herbivore |
There were quite a few words after the 'yes' which should have made it clear that I was agreeing with the point about Hamas and the Israeli government having a symbiotic relationship. I never suggested that it's just a few individuals who are the problem. |
Fair enough, I guess we are taking a different view of the same problem - as in Aristotle's (I'm sure there are some on here who miss Toto) Sorites paradox. What I see as a few individuals and a heap of sand you might see as a group of extremists and a beach.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox/ | |
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| The West Bank on 14:10 - Oct 21 with 1290 views | WeWereZombies |
| The West Bank on 13:54 - Oct 21 by WeWereZombies |
Fair enough, I guess we are taking a different view of the same problem - as in Aristotle's (I'm sure there are some on here who miss Toto) Sorites paradox. What I see as a few individuals and a heap of sand you might see as a group of extremists and a beach.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox/ |
To extend the analogy, it could be that we are at sea looking for somewhere to land and see the grains of sand / beach with something beyond it. You say solid ground, all those millions of population and I say quicksand. At least until some way is found to stabilise that land. | |
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