| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? 15:42 - Jul 1 with 1046 views | GeoffSentence |
In some games I have seen handballs not given because they were not deliberate, and pundits rattling on about handball having to be deliberate.
Then in others I have seen clear handballs, like this one, which were also obviously not deliberate be given.
I am confused about the handball rule. |  |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 15:45 - Jul 1 with 1030 views | StokieBlue |
Inconsistency isn't any better under VAR.
That however was a clear penalty. No need for his arms to be right up there except to maybe get a sneaky block in.
SB |  |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:06 - Jul 1 with 983 views | GeoffSentence |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 15:45 - Jul 1 by StokieBlue |
Inconsistency isn't any better under VAR.
That however was a clear penalty. No need for his arms to be right up there except to maybe get a sneaky block in.
SB |
So doesn't have to be deliberate then? | |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:09 - Jul 1 with 969 views | StokieBlue |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:06 - Jul 1 by GeoffSentence |
So doesn't have to be deliberate then? |
Easy to argue that was deliberate.
Every summariser said he knew exactly what he was doing. I can't see how you don't think that's a penalty.
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:09 - Jul 1 with 970 views | christiand |
I would argue that Pique knew what he was doing, therefore deliberately making the block. Penalty for me. |  |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:10 - Jul 1 with 966 views | m14_blue |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:06 - Jul 1 by GeoffSentence |
So doesn't have to be deliberate then? |
Why is his hand up there if not to block the ball?
100% penalty.
Agree with your more general point about the rule though. | | | |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:36 - Jul 1 with 937 views | GeoffSentence |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:09 - Jul 1 by StokieBlue |
Easy to argue that was deliberate.
Every summariser said he knew exactly what he was doing. I can't see how you don't think that's a penalty.
SB |
I didn't say I didn't think it was a penalty. It wasn't deliberate though. His hand was flapping about and did stop the header coming back in. So to me it depends if the rule is that it has to be deiberate or not. If not, then yes a penalty, if so then it's not a penalty.
There have been 3 decisions like it, two given, one not, and lots of chatter about how handball has to to be deliberate for it to be given.
Given what I have seen that does not seem to be the case, Just wondering if anyone can clear it up once and for all. | |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:41 - Jul 1 with 917 views | StokieBlue |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:36 - Jul 1 by GeoffSentence |
I didn't say I didn't think it was a penalty. It wasn't deliberate though. His hand was flapping about and did stop the header coming back in. So to me it depends if the rule is that it has to be deiberate or not. If not, then yes a penalty, if so then it's not a penalty.
There have been 3 decisions like it, two given, one not, and lots of chatter about how handball has to to be deliberate for it to be given.
Given what I have seen that does not seem to be the case, Just wondering if anyone can clear it up once and for all. |
Seems the majority think it's deliberate. No other reason to have his hand to there other to block the ball. They don't need to be up there to jump.
On the actual point I think they changed the wording in the laws to "intentional". Pretty hard to argue that's different to deliberate though. I guess the view is that arms in unnatural positions are an intentional act. Would need the ref to clear it up though really.
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:44 - Jul 1 with 910 views | GeoffSentence |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:41 - Jul 1 by StokieBlue |
Seems the majority think it's deliberate. No other reason to have his hand to there other to block the ball. They don't need to be up there to jump.
On the actual point I think they changed the wording in the laws to "intentional". Pretty hard to argue that's different to deliberate though. I guess the view is that arms in unnatural positions are an intentional act. Would need the ref to clear it up though really.
SB |
I think we do need a ref to clarify the deliberate/intentional question.
If it has to be intentional, I wouldn't have said it was a penalty, since the ball came from behind him, he couldn't see it coming so couldn't be intentional. | |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:45 - Jul 1 with 908 views | christiand |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:36 - Jul 1 by GeoffSentence |
I didn't say I didn't think it was a penalty. It wasn't deliberate though. His hand was flapping about and did stop the header coming back in. So to me it depends if the rule is that it has to be deiberate or not. If not, then yes a penalty, if so then it's not a penalty.
There have been 3 decisions like it, two given, one not, and lots of chatter about how handball has to to be deliberate for it to be given.
Given what I have seen that does not seem to be the case, Just wondering if anyone can clear it up once and for all. |
Well this is you being convinced that it wasn’t deliberate and others thinking it was so it is going to be hard to convince you otherwise. If Pique is risking putting his arm up way above his head that close to the striker to block a headed chance - it’s deliberate/intentional. Pique isn’t going to admit he did it, so regarding this whole argument it is a moot point. The referee, like the majority of us believe it was intentional to stop a goal scoring opportunity. [Post edited 1 Jul 2018 16:54]
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:49 - Jul 1 with 896 views | GeoffSentence |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:45 - Jul 1 by christiand |
Well this is you being convinced that it wasn’t deliberate and others thinking it was so it is going to be hard to convince you otherwise. If Pique is risking putting his arm up way above his head that close to the striker to block a headed chance - it’s deliberate/intentional. Pique isn’t going to admit he did it, so regarding this whole argument it is a moot point. The referee, like the majority of us believe it was intentional to stop a goal scoring opportunity. [Post edited 1 Jul 2018 16:54]
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Putting the question of intent to one side, it definitely deserved to be a penalty, his hand blocked the ball from coming back in.
But I honestly don't think it could have been deliberate as it was coming from behind him.
I actually don't think intent should come into it anyway, if your flapping arm spoils the play it should be a pen to my mind, deliberate or not. | |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:53 - Jul 1 with 890 views | christiand |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:49 - Jul 1 by GeoffSentence |
Putting the question of intent to one side, it definitely deserved to be a penalty, his hand blocked the ball from coming back in.
But I honestly don't think it could have been deliberate as it was coming from behind him.
I actually don't think intent should come into it anyway, if your flapping arm spoils the play it should be a pen to my mind, deliberate or not. |
Pique is wily and experienced, he knew exactly what he was doing and then protests his innocence afterwards. He’s got a 6’5’’ striker behind him 6 yards out with potentially a free header to put his country ahead. You wouldn’t try and block it by fair means or foul? | |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 17:38 - Jul 1 with 842 views | heavyweight |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:53 - Jul 1 by christiand |
Pique is wily and experienced, he knew exactly what he was doing and then protests his innocence afterwards. He’s got a 6’5’’ striker behind him 6 yards out with potentially a free header to put his country ahead. You wouldn’t try and block it by fair means or foul? |
There is supposed to be 'intent' but obviously the judgement of that is subjective. One of the criteria that is is judged on is if the arm is in an unnatural position.
Cellina tried to justify some that have been given and some that have not by saying that it depends if it hits another part of the body first. So effectively if you head the ball into your arm it isn't a penalty but if someone else hits it against you arm it is. To me this sounds like making up rules to retrospectively justify the decisions that have been made. | | | |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 18:11 - Jul 1 with 809 views | christiand |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 17:38 - Jul 1 by heavyweight |
There is supposed to be 'intent' but obviously the judgement of that is subjective. One of the criteria that is is judged on is if the arm is in an unnatural position.
Cellina tried to justify some that have been given and some that have not by saying that it depends if it hits another part of the body first. So effectively if you head the ball into your arm it isn't a penalty but if someone else hits it against you arm it is. To me this sounds like making up rules to retrospectively justify the decisions that have been made. |
So the arm is way above the defender’s head is that a natural position? No. I appreciate you use your arms for leverage for jumping, but not to that degree. We are going to get to the point in this discussion where the referee has to stop the game and ask the defender did he do that deliberately? | |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 19:01 - Jul 1 with 777 views | RamRob |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 18:11 - Jul 1 by christiand |
So the arm is way above the defender’s head is that a natural position? No. I appreciate you use your arms for leverage for jumping, but not to that degree. We are going to get to the point in this discussion where the referee has to stop the game and ask the defender did he do that deliberately? |
I think he intentionally put his arm in that position to block the ball IF the ball travelled in that direction, as there is no other reason for his arm to be there.
He doesn't have to know the ball is coming to try to make the block |  |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 19:03 - Jul 1 with 773 views | GeoffSentence |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 19:01 - Jul 1 by RamRob |
I think he intentionally put his arm in that position to block the ball IF the ball travelled in that direction, as there is no other reason for his arm to be there.
He doesn't have to know the ball is coming to try to make the block |
Having watched it again, I think you could be right, his arm was dropping naturally then he moved it up again. Daft thing to do. | |
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| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 19:06 - Jul 1 with 767 views | FrowsyArmLarry |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:10 - Jul 1 by m14_blue |
Why is his hand up there if not to block the ball?
100% penalty.
Agree with your more general point about the rule though. |
Having just watched it again I agree. If his arm was at shoulder height for leverage I’d say it’s not a pen, but where he had it it’s almost certainly a pen |  | | |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 19:09 - Jul 1 with 762 views | Swansea_Blue |
| so is the ruke that it handballl has to be deliberate or not? on 16:06 - Jul 1 by GeoffSentence |
So doesn't have to be deliberate then? |
Yes it does, as Pique’s was. He got caught under the ball and threw his arm up to try and block. Pretty clesr. |  |
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