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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning 10:47 - Jul 15 with 1123 viewsclive_baker

And it's hardly revolutionary, but I'm increasingly convinced that invariably, whoever 'wants it' more, and works hardest, wins football matches. There's so much made of playing personnel and technical ability, and the more the game is 'analysed' by the 'experts' on TV, the more this comes into our psyche, and debates rage about Nydam vs. Kenlock or whatever else. Obviously there needs to be a sufficient level of technical ability, and rightly so as you need good footballers, but I don't think enough is made of how they're put together and organised, and how motivated they are to do a good job for the team.

Wigan yesterday is a perfect example of that. On the one hand you've got a group of players in Wigan that are feeling a sense of injustice, almost certainly deeply p1ssed off about the shady goings on behind the scenes, and rallying round their captain and manager in their time of need to overturn the potential points deficit. Vs a Hull side who frankly, look like they've completely checked out and happy to go down with little fight last night. There's absolutely no way that any side at that level should be losing 7-0 at half time.

I think there's various factors that contribute to cultivating and maintaining that spirit and desire in a group, partly the innate characteristics of the members, some people are just more naturally ready to put in a shift and 'go to war'. No doubt also the influence of the manager plays a big part in it. A lot is made of our squad but I genuinely believe it was good enough to win the league last season, on paper. Quite frankly, it was capable of finishing anywhere within L1, and where we did land was more a reflection on the attitude and management than raw ability that runs throughout the squad, IMO. This is what frustrates me so much, MM over achieved with what he had at his disposal, the whole was greater than the sum of the parts. He did that through signing not only good footballers, but the right characters. Its often dismissed on here, the McCarthy 'good lads' that he often referred to, but it's an area of our squad I really do question - the leadership, the character. For want of a better word, the b0llocks. The real frustration is we're now in a position (albeit a league lower) where the parts are stronger, relative to our peers, than they have been for years. But it's coincided with spectacular mismanagement all the way from the top.

I had a football manager once at a semi pro level who absolutely swore by having a well known ex pro in the squad. Not because they're any better than the other lads on paper, but because everyone else raised their game around them. Seeing them pull into training in a £40k car when your 20 year old striker is a painter & decorator by day. I'm not talking Steven Gerrard, but your Darren Curries and Frank Sinclair's at Hendon for example. If you're training with someone with hundreds of Premier League appearances, you don't half see a higher standard from everyone. I'm not saying that's an approach that's relevant for us, but it's those incremental gains that get the best out of what you have available to you. I think it's interesting to see the 'new manager bounce' so often, look at MM at Town for example. 3 days prior to his arrival we were thumped 3-0 at home by Sheffield Wednesday. 3 days after his arrival the same group go and get 3 points at St Andrews. Because he's a damn good football manager.

Ndombele was paid more at Spurs than Pochettinho. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Poch wasn't short of a bob on his salary, but it feels so odd to me that there's more focus generally on the on field specifics, and less investment on the structure in which they're working and people responsible for getting a tune out of them.

So Mr Evans, if you've got 6 or 7 figures in your pocket to invest, perhaps let's stop asking if it should be spent on a left back, and invest the funds in the managerial hierarchy with a view to fulfilling the potential of those players we do have.
[Post edited 15 Jul 2020 10:47]

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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 10:57 - Jul 15 with 1058 viewsbrazil1982

Good post that. My girlfriend asked me the other day, "would you buy a football club if you could". No - but if I was tempted, my initial funds would go on management and scouting.

A mark of a good management set up is improving what you have in your team. This has almost gone in the PL as clubs buy "ready made" players. We can't do that. Good coaching and scouting is essential in this league.
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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 11:16 - Jul 15 with 1000 viewstractorboy1978

Sean Dyche recently appeared on the High Performance Podcast and it was quite fascinating. Highlighting the importance of basics such as willingness to learn, feeling part of a team, camaraderie with team mates, a sense of all pulling in the same direction, being treated fairly and basic manners. And that's before you even get to 4-4-2 or 4-3-3.

It's the same with a lot of jobs isn't it? Technical ability/knowledge gets you so far but personality and attitude is what sets you apart. Off topic but one of my big bug bears is people that have been promoted to a management position by virtue of being decent at their job but they possess no ability to manage i.e motivate, lead a team, people skills, ability to get the best out of others etc (Roy Keane anyone?). It's an entirely different set of skills.
[Post edited 15 Jul 2020 11:21]
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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 11:30 - Jul 15 with 949 viewsLibero

I'd go along with that, 100%
I'd probably just echo everything you've said there, but to add to it a bit, people hold managers like Sir Bobby in such high regard because he knew how to motivate individuals, I've heard various players say how he would make them feel ten foot tall or that they'd want to run through brick walls for him, or similar hyperbole.

Someone challenged a statement I made the other day about Kenlock, I think he plays a bit within himself and that there's actually a bit of a player in there, they asked why would any one play within themselves when a position is up for grabs?
Fear, lack of motivation, mentality, there are various factors that go into how and why people play a certain way on a certain day or in certain situations.

I don't know about other people but when I step onto a pitch at the start of a game I feel like I can tell what kind of game I'm going to have, so much of it is in the mind it's crazy.
If I'm confident, I want it and in the right head space, win/lose/draw there's no chance I'm having a bad game.
If I'm not quite feeling it, I've got something else on my mind, maybe I'm concerned I didn't hydrate enough, maybe I know the player i'm playing against gave me a real hard time before, then I'm already going into it making excuses and with the complete wrong attitude and although I have occasionally managed to turn it around it's very rare that I'll go into a game with that kind of attitude and come out of it having performed anything above a 6.5 out of 10.

It's easy to forget, but footballers are just people.
Yes, the controlled environments/diet/etc means they give every one as consistent a platform as possible to go out there and replicate their best week in week out, but there are a myriad of factors that are simply out of control of the club or that it takes a seriously good man manager to get around.
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Yeh yeh yeh on 11:36 - Jul 15 with 937 viewsDyland

Players win you games, not systems. Didn't you know?

LOL

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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 12:09 - Jul 15 with 870 viewsbrazil1982

Another snippet of a story about coaching, think it was from the book "A season with Verona"
A new Coach came in and noticed some basics weren't being done at all. He made several players "trap" the ball 2,000 times before they could be considered for the first team!
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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 12:14 - Jul 15 with 844 viewsclive_baker

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 11:30 - Jul 15 by Libero

I'd go along with that, 100%
I'd probably just echo everything you've said there, but to add to it a bit, people hold managers like Sir Bobby in such high regard because he knew how to motivate individuals, I've heard various players say how he would make them feel ten foot tall or that they'd want to run through brick walls for him, or similar hyperbole.

Someone challenged a statement I made the other day about Kenlock, I think he plays a bit within himself and that there's actually a bit of a player in there, they asked why would any one play within themselves when a position is up for grabs?
Fear, lack of motivation, mentality, there are various factors that go into how and why people play a certain way on a certain day or in certain situations.

I don't know about other people but when I step onto a pitch at the start of a game I feel like I can tell what kind of game I'm going to have, so much of it is in the mind it's crazy.
If I'm confident, I want it and in the right head space, win/lose/draw there's no chance I'm having a bad game.
If I'm not quite feeling it, I've got something else on my mind, maybe I'm concerned I didn't hydrate enough, maybe I know the player i'm playing against gave me a real hard time before, then I'm already going into it making excuses and with the complete wrong attitude and although I have occasionally managed to turn it around it's very rare that I'll go into a game with that kind of attitude and come out of it having performed anything above a 6.5 out of 10.

It's easy to forget, but footballers are just people.
Yes, the controlled environments/diet/etc means they give every one as consistent a platform as possible to go out there and replicate their best week in week out, but there are a myriad of factors that are simply out of control of the club or that it takes a seriously good man manager to get around.


It's so true, and everyone is motivated by different things. In a hypothetical world, had you put a £1m carrot for each player if we got promoted last season, I wonder what you would have seen from us. But money will motivate some, but not others. It's the managers job to understand what makes players tick, what gets them going in the morning and to get it out of them. That's what makes good managers such.

Kenlock is a good example, there's no reason whatsoever he couldn't be a really good player at this level, but the question is the same for all our players and that's how we get the best out of them. It's not about throwing enough mud at the wall in the hope some of it sticks. Playing within himself is fair, he looks scared to make a mistake. He's a player I think needs someone to blow a bit of smoke up him and give him the confidence to express himself. Some people need little encouragement, some need a lot more.

You mentioned Robson which probably explains why he was such a good manager. Burley had a lot of that, he would be out on the training ground working with every player to try and make them the best version of themselves they could be. He was interested in people, made people feel like anything was possible, and over achieved with the squad he had in 2001. Magilton was fiercely passionate, which would've resonated with some but also had it's challenges. Joe Royle had he not been a footballer / manager could've worked in sales, and cleared up. You would 100% buy a car from Royle. I've heard pros that played under him talk about how you just bought into what he was saying. 5 minutes with him and you're on board with his plans. Every good manager should be able to adapt, depending on the needs of the subordinates. My instinct is Lambert, and / or his staff isn't appropriately equipped with the tools and skills to do the job.

Our squad is capable of winning this league, but it needs something to change to get it firing on all cylinders.

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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 12:27 - Jul 15 with 802 viewsOldsmoker

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 11:16 - Jul 15 by tractorboy1978

Sean Dyche recently appeared on the High Performance Podcast and it was quite fascinating. Highlighting the importance of basics such as willingness to learn, feeling part of a team, camaraderie with team mates, a sense of all pulling in the same direction, being treated fairly and basic manners. And that's before you even get to 4-4-2 or 4-3-3.

It's the same with a lot of jobs isn't it? Technical ability/knowledge gets you so far but personality and attitude is what sets you apart. Off topic but one of my big bug bears is people that have been promoted to a management position by virtue of being decent at their job but they possess no ability to manage i.e motivate, lead a team, people skills, ability to get the best out of others etc (Roy Keane anyone?). It's an entirely different set of skills.
[Post edited 15 Jul 2020 11:21]


"Off topic but one of my big bug bears is people that have been promoted to a management position by virtue of being decent at their job but they possess no ability to manage"

This is my experience of employment my whole life.
I worked in computers so the guy/gal who knew the systems got to be in charge.
He/she could communicate with a computer with no problems as a computer was binary as in yes/no, true/false.
People do "maybe" which does not compute.
People management is a skill all by itself but there are those that use these skills to manipulate others eg Brown nosers.

Don't believe a word I say. I'm only kidding. Or am I?
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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 12:29 - Jul 15 with 797 viewsLibero

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 12:14 - Jul 15 by clive_baker

It's so true, and everyone is motivated by different things. In a hypothetical world, had you put a £1m carrot for each player if we got promoted last season, I wonder what you would have seen from us. But money will motivate some, but not others. It's the managers job to understand what makes players tick, what gets them going in the morning and to get it out of them. That's what makes good managers such.

Kenlock is a good example, there's no reason whatsoever he couldn't be a really good player at this level, but the question is the same for all our players and that's how we get the best out of them. It's not about throwing enough mud at the wall in the hope some of it sticks. Playing within himself is fair, he looks scared to make a mistake. He's a player I think needs someone to blow a bit of smoke up him and give him the confidence to express himself. Some people need little encouragement, some need a lot more.

You mentioned Robson which probably explains why he was such a good manager. Burley had a lot of that, he would be out on the training ground working with every player to try and make them the best version of themselves they could be. He was interested in people, made people feel like anything was possible, and over achieved with the squad he had in 2001. Magilton was fiercely passionate, which would've resonated with some but also had it's challenges. Joe Royle had he not been a footballer / manager could've worked in sales, and cleared up. You would 100% buy a car from Royle. I've heard pros that played under him talk about how you just bought into what he was saying. 5 minutes with him and you're on board with his plans. Every good manager should be able to adapt, depending on the needs of the subordinates. My instinct is Lambert, and / or his staff isn't appropriately equipped with the tools and skills to do the job.

Our squad is capable of winning this league, but it needs something to change to get it firing on all cylinders.


Yup, that's one of the reasons I really don't agree with the way the elite clubs swoop in and pay 16 year old kids millions and millions based on potential, that surely has a counterproductive effect on a large number of those kids!

Yeah, you've more eloquently summed up my thoughts on Kenlock than I ever could.
If I was his manager I'd be telling him he had all the attributes to be as good as Mings was for the club, telling him that actually he's technically better than Tyrone on the ball, etc.
Give him that belief and trust, enable him and offer a platform to just go out and be the best player he can be!
I'm unconvinced by Dozzell from what I've seen, but similarly I can see how and why he's not stood out, he's another lad who needs an arm round him and some smoke blowing up him.

Agree with your assessment of our managers, also worth mentioning that EVERY player to ever play with Jim talks about the incredibly high standards he set in training and how it encouraged people to raise their game (similar to what you say re: hendon Currie/Sinclair)

I don't disagree that there's a lot of talent in our squad and it's a long way from being utilised, I do think we still need to make a few additions and strengthen with some experience in certain areas but yeah, there's no reason a different manager can't come in and get the players singing to his tune.

I've watched a lot of the Undr The Cosh podcasts, there's been quite a few ex-Norwich and Villa players on it who were managed by Lambert, weirdly almost all of them credit him as a very good man manager, although there have also been criticisms that he tried to pretend to be Martin O'Neil and that often his messaging was a bit muddled too...
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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:00 - Jul 15 with 710 viewsGarv

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 12:29 - Jul 15 by Libero

Yup, that's one of the reasons I really don't agree with the way the elite clubs swoop in and pay 16 year old kids millions and millions based on potential, that surely has a counterproductive effect on a large number of those kids!

Yeah, you've more eloquently summed up my thoughts on Kenlock than I ever could.
If I was his manager I'd be telling him he had all the attributes to be as good as Mings was for the club, telling him that actually he's technically better than Tyrone on the ball, etc.
Give him that belief and trust, enable him and offer a platform to just go out and be the best player he can be!
I'm unconvinced by Dozzell from what I've seen, but similarly I can see how and why he's not stood out, he's another lad who needs an arm round him and some smoke blowing up him.

Agree with your assessment of our managers, also worth mentioning that EVERY player to ever play with Jim talks about the incredibly high standards he set in training and how it encouraged people to raise their game (similar to what you say re: hendon Currie/Sinclair)

I don't disagree that there's a lot of talent in our squad and it's a long way from being utilised, I do think we still need to make a few additions and strengthen with some experience in certain areas but yeah, there's no reason a different manager can't come in and get the players singing to his tune.

I've watched a lot of the Undr The Cosh podcasts, there's been quite a few ex-Norwich and Villa players on it who were managed by Lambert, weirdly almost all of them credit him as a very good man manager, although there have also been criticisms that he tried to pretend to be Martin O'Neil and that often his messaging was a bit muddled too...


It's not overly weird is it? He led that lot to consecutive promotions with a modest squad and kept them in the PL. He obviously got something right there.

You wouldn't think a manager would change tack that much in how he manages across different clubs. But on the other hand those he is managing will be very different to those a decade ago, so it's up to him to adapt to that.

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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:03 - Jul 15 with 695 viewsLibero

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:00 - Jul 15 by Garv

It's not overly weird is it? He led that lot to consecutive promotions with a modest squad and kept them in the PL. He obviously got something right there.

You wouldn't think a manager would change tack that much in how he manages across different clubs. But on the other hand those he is managing will be very different to those a decade ago, so it's up to him to adapt to that.


It's only weird because the descriptions I've heard of his management style at Portman Road portray his man management skills as pretty poor.
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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:17 - Jul 15 with 653 viewstractorboy1978

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 12:14 - Jul 15 by clive_baker

It's so true, and everyone is motivated by different things. In a hypothetical world, had you put a £1m carrot for each player if we got promoted last season, I wonder what you would have seen from us. But money will motivate some, but not others. It's the managers job to understand what makes players tick, what gets them going in the morning and to get it out of them. That's what makes good managers such.

Kenlock is a good example, there's no reason whatsoever he couldn't be a really good player at this level, but the question is the same for all our players and that's how we get the best out of them. It's not about throwing enough mud at the wall in the hope some of it sticks. Playing within himself is fair, he looks scared to make a mistake. He's a player I think needs someone to blow a bit of smoke up him and give him the confidence to express himself. Some people need little encouragement, some need a lot more.

You mentioned Robson which probably explains why he was such a good manager. Burley had a lot of that, he would be out on the training ground working with every player to try and make them the best version of themselves they could be. He was interested in people, made people feel like anything was possible, and over achieved with the squad he had in 2001. Magilton was fiercely passionate, which would've resonated with some but also had it's challenges. Joe Royle had he not been a footballer / manager could've worked in sales, and cleared up. You would 100% buy a car from Royle. I've heard pros that played under him talk about how you just bought into what he was saying. 5 minutes with him and you're on board with his plans. Every good manager should be able to adapt, depending on the needs of the subordinates. My instinct is Lambert, and / or his staff isn't appropriately equipped with the tools and skills to do the job.

Our squad is capable of winning this league, but it needs something to change to get it firing on all cylinders.


A lot of people criticise Chambers but every ex-player I've heard talk about him raves about his ability as a captain. They love him. Stephen Hunt said he's the best captain he's had. And you can see his personal qualities a mile off - the way he treats the young players, the way he speaks to the press, the respect he has from all at the club. He carries the weight of the club on his shoulders a lot of the time.

He could go on to be a fine manager one day.
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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:20 - Jul 15 with 629 viewsGarv

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:03 - Jul 15 by Libero

It's only weird because the descriptions I've heard of his management style at Portman Road portray his man management skills as pretty poor.


Disappointing if so. 10 years is a long time.

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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:24 - Jul 15 with 618 viewsLibero

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:17 - Jul 15 by tractorboy1978

A lot of people criticise Chambers but every ex-player I've heard talk about him raves about his ability as a captain. They love him. Stephen Hunt said he's the best captain he's had. And you can see his personal qualities a mile off - the way he treats the young players, the way he speaks to the press, the respect he has from all at the club. He carries the weight of the club on his shoulders a lot of the time.

He could go on to be a fine manager one day.


Mick Mills was an incredible captain, not so incredible manager.
Similarly, Roy Keane.

It's worth pointing out that just because you're a good captain doesn't mean you'll be a good manager.
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Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 13:31 - Jul 15 with 595 viewstractorboy1978

Do you know what winds me up about football..Rant warning on 12:27 - Jul 15 by Oldsmoker

"Off topic but one of my big bug bears is people that have been promoted to a management position by virtue of being decent at their job but they possess no ability to manage"

This is my experience of employment my whole life.
I worked in computers so the guy/gal who knew the systems got to be in charge.
He/she could communicate with a computer with no problems as a computer was binary as in yes/no, true/false.
People do "maybe" which does not compute.
People management is a skill all by itself but there are those that use these skills to manipulate others eg Brown nosers.


I always say that you cannot teach a lot of management skills - you certainly cannot teach emotional intelligence/empathy which is a huge part of people management.
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