| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 08:50 - Oct 26 with 3663 views | MK1 |
Not sure Israel care what the rest of us think. |  |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 08:57 - Oct 26 with 3627 views | DJR |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 08:50 - Oct 26 by MK1 |
Not sure Israel care what the rest of us think. |
That's obviously true, and I suppose why should they?
My concern, so far as concerns this thread, is with what's going on in this country.
Perhaps the key sentence in the article I linked was the following.
"Yet if a liberal democracy is to live, it cannot keep marginalising those it believes hold the wrong views." [Post edited 26 Oct 2023 9:24]
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 09:01 - Oct 26 with 3608 views | Bent_double |
I'm surprised it's that low, should be more like 98% |  |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 09:03 - Oct 26 with 3598 views | DJR |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 09:01 - Oct 26 by Bent_double |
I'm surprised it's that low, should be more like 98% |
The poll was dated 19 October, so I imagine the percentage will have increased since then. | | | |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 09:50 - Oct 26 with 3514 views | Darth_Koont |
Although the Tory/Leave axis our politics constantly defers to appears much more in line with the government and its unilateral support. They are the focus groups and swing voters we keep hearing about too.
The timing couldn’t be worse for the UK and US both facing elections next year and it seems we’re going down the authoritarian/strongman route as a result.
Agree totally re: Iraq. This has a War on Terror zeal that seems to ignore objective facts and sustainable, peaceful aims, and there’s a similar nasty islamophobic, ideological and imperialist undercurrent to a lot of it again. Let’s just hope that we don’t do the same thing and turn the horror of 9/11 into the same self-serving mess and throw millions of innocent people under the bus. |  |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 09:55 - Oct 26 with 3485 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
The role of government is to lead and not to simply follow popular opinion (which is one reason why holding the referendum on the EU was such a poor decision).
However, the lack of backbone of Sunak to stand up for what is clearly the right thing to demand is disappointing. I think it is playing into the hands of Hamas who want to drive a clear division between the Western world and the Muslim world. |  |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:00 - Oct 26 with 3463 views | WeWereZombies |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 08:50 - Oct 26 by MK1 |
Not sure Israel care what the rest of us think. |
If we consider the time that politicians like Danny Danon and Ehud Barak have given to the BBC's HARDtalk then I think we have to conclude that Israel is very concerned about how it is seen internationally. Of course there is a wide and constantly changing range of concerns across Israeli society but I suspect almost everyone there cares how they are seen, as a 'young' country most citizens will have friends and family outwith the nation. I think the Danny Danon interview is especially illuminating:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001l2vc/hardtalk-danny-danon-member-of-is
For balance it is also worth watching Husam Zumlot, Palestine's envoy to the United Kingdom, interviewed:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001rnhz/hardtalk-husam-zomlot-head-of-the |  |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:05 - Oct 26 with 3433 views | DJR |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 09:55 - Oct 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The role of government is to lead and not to simply follow popular opinion (which is one reason why holding the referendum on the EU was such a poor decision).
However, the lack of backbone of Sunak to stand up for what is clearly the right thing to demand is disappointing. I think it is playing into the hands of Hamas who want to drive a clear division between the Western world and the Muslim world. |
But when it comes to foreign policy (and the current crisis), the UK have for forty odd years followed the US, with sometimes disastrous consequences (Iraq, Afghanistan).
Just as well Harold Wilson had the backbone not to join the Vietnam war.
The problem it seems to me is that mistakes will occur with both main parties fully in-step and no critical thinking, or proper opposition, taking place. [Post edited 26 Oct 2023 10:09]
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:11 - Oct 26 with 3391 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:05 - Oct 26 by DJR |
But when it comes to foreign policy (and the current crisis), the UK have for forty odd years followed the US, with sometimes disastrous consequences (Iraq, Afghanistan).
Just as well Harold Wilson had the backbone not to join the Vietnam war.
The problem it seems to me is that mistakes will occur with both main parties fully in-step and no critical thinking, or proper opposition, taking place. [Post edited 26 Oct 2023 10:09]
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Labour are in a very tricky position. I think Starmer is chasing populism on this but there is an argument that a united front on foreign policy is good. However, on a ceasefire and general support for Israel's right to go beyond self-defence in its response, it would be good to see him make a stand. He seems determined to chase the Conservatives as far to the right as he can to leave as much ground in the electorate on his side as possible.
The "special relationship" with the US has frequently been to our detriment too. Another reason why driving a wedge against the EU has been disastrous. | |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:59 - Oct 26 with 3351 views | WeWereZombies |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:11 - Oct 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Labour are in a very tricky position. I think Starmer is chasing populism on this but there is an argument that a united front on foreign policy is good. However, on a ceasefire and general support for Israel's right to go beyond self-defence in its response, it would be good to see him make a stand. He seems determined to chase the Conservatives as far to the right as he can to leave as much ground in the electorate on his side as possible.
The "special relationship" with the US has frequently been to our detriment too. Another reason why driving a wedge against the EU has been disastrous. |
I've just started another thread on Biden's stand against Netanyahu's blindsiding of the settler attack problem (something that has being going on and worsening for years, thus being an enabler for Hamas to gain and keep control of Gaza) but I think this is also an opportunity for Starmer to align more closely with a Democratic US position on the conflict. Following Biden on working towards a two state solution also has to be a key policy pledge and, hopefully, a vote winner. There are other matters on which a party with Socialist roots should steer well clear of when it comes to alignment with the United States of course. | |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 11:14 - Oct 26 with 3321 views | DJR |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:59 - Oct 26 by WeWereZombies |
I've just started another thread on Biden's stand against Netanyahu's blindsiding of the settler attack problem (something that has being going on and worsening for years, thus being an enabler for Hamas to gain and keep control of Gaza) but I think this is also an opportunity for Starmer to align more closely with a Democratic US position on the conflict. Following Biden on working towards a two state solution also has to be a key policy pledge and, hopefully, a vote winner. There are other matters on which a party with Socialist roots should steer well clear of when it comes to alignment with the United States of course. |
The thing is that neither political party will lead on this. For example, it was only when the US started talking about a "humanitarian pause" a day or so ago, that this started being talked about here.
Sunak mentioned it yesterday, but Starmer may well be keeping his head down, given reports of divisions in the Labour Party over its approach to the conflict. Certainly he avoided the issue at PMQs yesterday, something that has been commented on in the press.
And I imagine it suits both parties, that Parliament is now on a two week break. [Post edited 26 Oct 2023 11:17]
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 16:17 - Oct 27 with 3107 views | DJR |
Interesting to note that Anwas Sawar, Sadiq Khan and Andy Burnham (following on from Humza Yousaf) have today called for a ceasefire.
As well as being something they believe in, I don't think there is much of a sense of loyalty on the part of Khan and Burnham because they have been side-lined and bad-mouthed by those at the top of the party.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/hate-burnham-furious-khan-team-starmer-labour- [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 16:19]
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 18:30 - Oct 27 with 3027 views | Radlett_blue |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 16:17 - Oct 27 by DJR |
Interesting to note that Anwas Sawar, Sadiq Khan and Andy Burnham (following on from Humza Yousaf) have today called for a ceasefire.
As well as being something they believe in, I don't think there is much of a sense of loyalty on the part of Khan and Burnham because they have been side-lined and bad-mouthed by those at the top of the party.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/hate-burnham-furious-khan-team-starmer-labour- [Post edited 27 Oct 2023 16:19]
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I'm much happier with the likes of Andy Burnham & Sadiq Khan saying what they really think, rather than meekly toeing the government's narrative of near unconditional support for Israel, which is what Starmer is doing. |  |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 21:40 - Oct 27 with 2960 views | bluejacko |
So is this just Isreal cease firing or does Hamas have to as well?as there is no hope of hamas agreeing to that! |  | | |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 21:44 - Oct 27 with 2953 views | Blueschev |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 21:40 - Oct 27 by bluejacko |
So is this just Isreal cease firing or does Hamas have to as well?as there is no hope of hamas agreeing to that! |
They’ve agreed to a ceasefire in previous conflicts. |  | | |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 21:54 - Oct 27 with 2930 views | LaManga |
Ceasefire after all the hostages are safety released. | | | |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 22:02 - Oct 27 with 2901 views | WeWereZombies |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 21:54 - Oct 27 by LaManga |
Ceasefire after all the hostages are safety released. |
That could be difficult if some of the hostages have, allegedly, been killed by bombing. And making a ceasefire conditional on release of hostages is holding a civilian population accountable for things over which they have no control. | |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 22:02 - Oct 27 with 2904 views | DJR |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 21:54 - Oct 27 by LaManga |
Ceasefire after all the hostages are safety released. |
I suppose it's easy to say that if you don't have family there, whether hostages or ordinary civilians.
And this from UNICEF.
[Post edited 27 Oct 2023 22:06]
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 22:10 - Oct 27 with 2887 views | Swansea_Blue |
Leave voting, male Tories in the 50-64 age group, especially from Scotland are an angry lot, aren't they?
That's a weird collective of people most supportive of no cease fire. Take that with a pinch of salt though and I'm being flippant; the overlap between the groups above is my emphasis. In reality there's no evidence the groups most opposed map onto each other. But males, Tory voters, 50-64 year olds and those in Scotland seem to want the bombs to keep falling the most. Others aren't far behind though. The Welsh seem an angry lot too, although the regional factor is the least significant of all. Is this just reflecting where people get their views from in their echo chamber, maybe?
I can't see why anyone would be opposed to a ceasefire, especially if there's a chance it leads to the release of the hostages and provides respite for innocent civilians. It's pretty obvious bombing the population isn't going to get rid of Hamas. |  |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:45 - Oct 28 with 2741 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 22:10 - Oct 27 by Swansea_Blue |
Leave voting, male Tories in the 50-64 age group, especially from Scotland are an angry lot, aren't they?
That's a weird collective of people most supportive of no cease fire. Take that with a pinch of salt though and I'm being flippant; the overlap between the groups above is my emphasis. In reality there's no evidence the groups most opposed map onto each other. But males, Tory voters, 50-64 year olds and those in Scotland seem to want the bombs to keep falling the most. Others aren't far behind though. The Welsh seem an angry lot too, although the regional factor is the least significant of all. Is this just reflecting where people get their views from in their echo chamber, maybe?
I can't see why anyone would be opposed to a ceasefire, especially if there's a chance it leads to the release of the hostages and provides respite for innocent civilians. It's pretty obvious bombing the population isn't going to get rid of Hamas. |
I think the argument against a ceasefire is that it gives Hamas the chance to regroup. Those opposed to one see the horror of Hamas' actions as justification for the obliteration of Palestine as far as I can see. An eye for an eye and all that. Where that ultimately leads to with the inevitable rise of Hezbollah and greater Arabic hatred of Israel and the west is the most worrying aspect - even more than the horrific inhumanity currently unfolding. | |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:45 - Oct 28 with 2739 views | WeWereZombies |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 21:54 - Oct 27 by LaManga |
Ceasefire after all the hostages are safety released. |
From this morning's BBC live news feed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67246761 at 09;49
'The families of hostages being held in Gaza say they spent a night in "great anxiety", as Israel intensified its bombing of the Strip.
In a statement released this morning, the families are calling on the Israeli defence minister and members of the war cabinet to meet with them immediately.
"This night was the most terrible of all nights. It was a long and sleepless night, against the backdrop of the major IDF operation in the Strip, and absolute uncertainty regarding the fate of the hostages held there, who were also subject to the heavy bombings," the statement reads.
The statement adds that the ground operation endangers the well-being of the 229 hostages in Gaza.' | |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:49 - Oct 28 with 2717 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:45 - Oct 28 by WeWereZombies |
From this morning's BBC live news feed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67246761 at 09;49
'The families of hostages being held in Gaza say they spent a night in "great anxiety", as Israel intensified its bombing of the Strip.
In a statement released this morning, the families are calling on the Israeli defence minister and members of the war cabinet to meet with them immediately.
"This night was the most terrible of all nights. It was a long and sleepless night, against the backdrop of the major IDF operation in the Strip, and absolute uncertainty regarding the fate of the hostages held there, who were also subject to the heavy bombings," the statement reads.
The statement adds that the ground operation endangers the well-being of the 229 hostages in Gaza.' |
Indeed, Israel's operations have no intention of safely recovering the hostages. As far as Netanyahu is concerned they may as well be already dead. | |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 11:53 - Oct 28 with 2645 views | Darth_Koont |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 22:10 - Oct 27 by Swansea_Blue |
Leave voting, male Tories in the 50-64 age group, especially from Scotland are an angry lot, aren't they?
That's a weird collective of people most supportive of no cease fire. Take that with a pinch of salt though and I'm being flippant; the overlap between the groups above is my emphasis. In reality there's no evidence the groups most opposed map onto each other. But males, Tory voters, 50-64 year olds and those in Scotland seem to want the bombs to keep falling the most. Others aren't far behind though. The Welsh seem an angry lot too, although the regional factor is the least significant of all. Is this just reflecting where people get their views from in their echo chamber, maybe?
I can't see why anyone would be opposed to a ceasefire, especially if there's a chance it leads to the release of the hostages and provides respite for innocent civilians. It's pretty obvious bombing the population isn't going to get rid of Hamas. |
Doesn’t sound like anyone on here ... 
Re: the Scots and Welsh, the general numbers are more in favour of a ceasefire than elsewhere, just that there’s a bump for those saying “There definitely should not be an immediate ceasefire”. Might be a sample problem given fewer Scots and Welsh compared to the other regions.
But in Scotland it might also reflect Rangers fans and Protestant sectarians many of whom have a fierce support for Israel and the status quo to counter Celtic’s embrace of Palestinians and the struggle of an oppressed people. Silly to take that to a football level but that’s the madness of the Old Firm and the throwbacks who still see the world along sectarian lines.
No theory for the Welsh other than the majority voted for Brexit so strange views seem to be more acceptable 🙂 | |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 12:00 - Oct 28 with 2600 views | Swansea_Blue |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 10:45 - Oct 28 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I think the argument against a ceasefire is that it gives Hamas the chance to regroup. Those opposed to one see the horror of Hamas' actions as justification for the obliteration of Palestine as far as I can see. An eye for an eye and all that. Where that ultimately leads to with the inevitable rise of Hezbollah and greater Arabic hatred of Israel and the west is the most worrying aspect - even more than the horrific inhumanity currently unfolding. |
It's certainly a tricky prospect trying to root them out. Although they've had years to prepare haven't they and are well entrenched with their tunnels (plus reports of the leadership being elsewhere).
It is worrying where this will end up, agreed. | |
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| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 12:25 - Oct 28 with 2548 views | Darth_Koont |
| 76% in favour of ceasefire on 12:00 - Oct 28 by Swansea_Blue |
It's certainly a tricky prospect trying to root them out. Although they've had years to prepare haven't they and are well entrenched with their tunnels (plus reports of the leadership being elsewhere).
It is worrying where this will end up, agreed. |
They can’t cauterise Hamas as like it or not they are intertwined with the civilian population. And a direct result of Gaza already being an open-air prison that herds everyone together in a small area.
Ditto far too many of the hostages will be killed along with many more thousands of civilians if they continue to go after Hamas with their full military might.
But I think a lot of that is just talk and chest-beating. I think the underlying and achievable strategic plan is to lay waste to Northern Gaza as the “unavoidable” consequences of the operation. Then when there is an eventual retreat, the people will have to return to destroyed or uninhabitable homes and infrastructure without utilities such as clean water and sewage etc. And a blockade that makes any recovery nigh on impossible. Or more likely need to stay in southern Gaza and all the overcrowding and turmoil that will cause.
Israel (or more accurately its racist government and the dangerously large group of ethnic-religious extremists who support them) want to clear Palestinians from the region, pushing people off their land and out of their homes in the occupied territory and now squeezing them out of Gaza as if they’re rolling up a toothpaste tube.
Anyone still talking about this in terms of Israel’s right to defend itself or still holding on to some two-state fantasy needs to own what they’re providing cover for: ethnic cleansing and ultimately genocide. [Post edited 28 Oct 2023 12:26]
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