| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. 07:46 - Jun 26 with 31485 views | Swn98 |
How low will this man stoop to get into political power claiming the poor residents of Grenville tower were murdered.
This tragedy should be above politics until those survivors are sorted out and the judicial process can begin.
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 17:35 - Jun 27 with 5234 views | Lazymidfielder |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 12:20 - Jun 27 by Dolly2.0 |
Hmm. I don't know what to say really. Maybe he's right. I don't know if bad political decisions contributed to the situation but can see how it's possible. I don't know if lack of firefighters caused deaths.
They are strong words for sure, but are they based in fact?
BTW, just because I voted Labour does not necessarily mean I support John McDonnell.
EDIT: There also seems to be some of the speech missing. What was cut out and why? [Post edited 27 Jun 2017 12:21]
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Problem is, he doesn't know if it was political decisions yet either. And yet he makes these rabble rousing inflammatory comments.
Whats more, murder requires malicious intent and is utterly innappropriate here. | | | |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 17:44 - Jun 27 with 5216 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 16:42 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
It may have escaped your notice but no single party won a majority to implement their manifesto commitment.
Had the Tories won a majority then the proposals on social care, means testing winter fuel payments and the triple lock pension would have been put before the house to vote on.
Parliamentary democracy does work because we have 650 members of parliament who will vote by a majority on a series of measures. After 5 years the electorate can reflect on the performance of the government and vote that government out.
What is open to question is the system that we use to elect our representatives. I like you, would prefer to see a more proportional system of representation. I would imagine that you, like me, take a different view to Mr McDonnell on how we react to the shortcomings of that voting system. Mr McDonnel believes that direct street action is the answer and that rioters "kicking the sh1t out of Milbank is the best of pour movement on display". |
Come the revolution, have you any calluses on your hands ? |  |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 17:51 - Jun 27 with 5205 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 13:47 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
No. He has said before that democracy doesn't work.
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I don't see a problem with that if during their 5 years a government over steps it's mandate then democracy has a place on the streets through direct action as per poll tax . | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 17:52 - Jun 27 with 5202 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 17:44 - Jun 27 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Come the revolution, have you any calluses on your hands ? |
I'll be fine. It's usually the outspoken troublemakers from their own number who are first up against the wall. |  |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:01 - Jun 27 with 5196 views | m14_blue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 16:00 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
He is far more relevant to your life than you realise.
You have invested a lot of time and emotion to the cult of Corbyn. McDonnell is the man behind the curtain. |
Why do you think that?
I often see it said that Corbyn is McDonnell's puppet etc but have never really seen an explanation. | | | |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:19 - Jun 27 with 5184 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 17:51 - Jun 27 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I don't see a problem with that if during their 5 years a government over steps it's mandate then democracy has a place on the streets through direct action as per poll tax . |
Over steps it's mandate? The Community Charge (Poll Tax) was in the Conservative manifesto of 1987 which saw the Tories win a landslide.
What you are saying is if you don't like a particular method of paying for services then you are entitled to riot.
I'm sure you will sympathise if the higher tax rate payers start rioting over what they believe is an unfair system of taxation? | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:30 - Jun 27 with 5174 views | bluelagos |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:19 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
Over steps it's mandate? The Community Charge (Poll Tax) was in the Conservative manifesto of 1987 which saw the Tories win a landslide.
What you are saying is if you don't like a particular method of paying for services then you are entitled to riot.
I'm sure you will sympathise if the higher tax rate payers start rioting over what they believe is an unfair system of taxation? |
Your lot had a mandate for the poll tax? Thatcher got 42%. Lab 28% Libs 25% both opposed the Poll tax in their manifestos.
They had nothing of the kind Glassers. Hence why they ditched it the minute they knifed Thatcher in the back.
(Am not saying the riots were right btw) |  |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:42 - Jun 27 with 5165 views | eireblue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 17:15 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
A dictatorship is not possible under our parliamentary process. Especially when there is such a thin majority.
It may only work if all the members of Parliament in the "ruling party" acquiesce to the leaders wishes.
You saw how Tory rebels stopped May breaking a manifesto commitment regarding raising the rate of NI for the self employed.
Even the seemingly all powerful like Blair and Thatcher are democratically brought down by members of their own party. |
Didn't Blair resign, and get a standing ovation?
Not a dictatorship, as I said, a sort of elected parliamentary dictatorship.
Which is of course why PR is needed, and probably quite a few other measures.
The examples you cite, are still examples of a ruling party doing stuff that it can, within the party.
An individual dictator can change their mind, a dictating part can change its collective mind.
This discussion also leads to my other bug bear, may as well get that one out there:
"Bad opposition leads to bad government" or some alternative phrasing is sometimes used.
Nonsense, for that to be true it means the party in power must be doing bad things, otherwise why "bad government" or "bad for democracy". Surely if the government of the day is doing a bang up job and everyone feels represented, that can't be "bad democracy"
So why would a party suddenly do bad things, leading to bad government and bad representation just because they can.
Unless the party is already full of bad politicians that want to do bad things, that lead to bad government.
If we have a system that can deliver a bad government, then what we have is a bad system.
But again, this is just another long winded way of saying, the public would be better served with a better system than we have today. |  | | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:02 - Jun 27 with 5135 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 17:52 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
I'll be fine. It's usually the outspoken troublemakers from their own number who are first up against the wall. |
Oh I'd be bol1oxed despite the calluses, all the Party types hate Anarchists ! | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:09 - Jun 27 with 5125 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:19 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
Over steps it's mandate? The Community Charge (Poll Tax) was in the Conservative manifesto of 1987 which saw the Tories win a landslide.
What you are saying is if you don't like a particular method of paying for services then you are entitled to riot.
I'm sure you will sympathise if the higher tax rate payers start rioting over what they believe is an unfair system of taxation? |
It was defeated by a whole lot more resistance than just the Trafalgar Square riot....but if Governments refuse to listen......
The mega rich are living a riot over the rest of us on a daily basis....more fool us for sucking it up !
No Gods No Masters !  | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:46 - Jun 27 with 5092 views | Dolly2.0 |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 16:00 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
He is far more relevant to your life than you realise.
You have invested a lot of time and emotion to the cult of Corbyn. McDonnell is the man behind the curtain. |
There are probably lots of dodgy people in Labour (and all the other parties). I voted on their policies.
I know you're desperate to score internet points by aligning me to this chap but frankly, bore off. You've already lied by saying I cheered him saying MI5 should be disbanded (and swerve it every time I bring it up) so do us all a favour and give it a rest.
I have better things to do than play your silly games. Particularly when you blatantly lie and then don't own up to it when caught out.
I look forward to you swerving this again... |  |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:47 - Jun 27 with 5092 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:30 - Jun 27 by bluelagos |
Your lot had a mandate for the poll tax? Thatcher got 42%. Lab 28% Libs 25% both opposed the Poll tax in their manifestos.
They had nothing of the kind Glassers. Hence why they ditched it the minute they knifed Thatcher in the back.
(Am not saying the riots were right btw) |
FFS Lagos. I've seen some piss poor arguments on here but that is one of the worst.
We don't have PR. We have a first past the post system and the Tories won a majority of 102 in 1987. By any reckoning that gives them a mandate to implement their manifesto commitments whether you like them or not.
By your logic no government since that of Stanley Baldwin, in 1945, has had a mandate to implement their manifesto commitments.
Why they ditched it, wrongly imo, is a completely different debate but under our electoral system they had a mandate to implement it. | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:48 - Jun 27 with 5086 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:42 - Jun 27 by eireblue |
Didn't Blair resign, and get a standing ovation?
Not a dictatorship, as I said, a sort of elected parliamentary dictatorship.
Which is of course why PR is needed, and probably quite a few other measures.
The examples you cite, are still examples of a ruling party doing stuff that it can, within the party.
An individual dictator can change their mind, a dictating part can change its collective mind.
This discussion also leads to my other bug bear, may as well get that one out there:
"Bad opposition leads to bad government" or some alternative phrasing is sometimes used.
Nonsense, for that to be true it means the party in power must be doing bad things, otherwise why "bad government" or "bad for democracy". Surely if the government of the day is doing a bang up job and everyone feels represented, that can't be "bad democracy"
So why would a party suddenly do bad things, leading to bad government and bad representation just because they can.
Unless the party is already full of bad politicians that want to do bad things, that lead to bad government.
If we have a system that can deliver a bad government, then what we have is a bad system.
But again, this is just another long winded way of saying, the public would be better served with a better system than we have today. |
I'm just back from the gym and wanted to answer Lagos before settling down. I will come back to this post sometime tomorrow. | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:49 - Jun 27 with 5083 views | Dolly2.0 |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 16:10 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
Not only that. If Jezza was to win an election I doubt he would serve a full term at the age of 68. McDonnell would be his likely successor if Jezza retired whilst in office.
We could see McDonnell, bearing in mind everything he has ever said and done during his time in politics, grabbing control of 10 Downing Street, the Treasury, the Home Office, the Ministry of Defence, of Culture, of the Environment, MI6, MI5 and every other part of government and administration that you can think of.
Frightening. |
And if my auntie had bowlocks she'd be my uncle.
None of this that you and Stokie have mentioned has happened. You don't know McDonnell would be Jezza's successor and he isn't chancellor. | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 21:04 - Jun 27 with 5065 views | Dolly2.0 |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:48 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm just back from the gym and wanted to answer Lagos before settling down. I will come back to this post sometime tomorrow. |
You can come back and swerve my post tomorrow as well if you like. | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 21:11 - Jun 27 with 5055 views | bluelagos |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:47 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
FFS Lagos. I've seen some piss poor arguments on here but that is one of the worst.
We don't have PR. We have a first past the post system and the Tories won a majority of 102 in 1987. By any reckoning that gives them a mandate to implement their manifesto commitments whether you like them or not.
By your logic no government since that of Stanley Baldwin, in 1945, has had a mandate to implement their manifesto commitments.
Why they ditched it, wrongly imo, is a completely different debate but under our electoral system they had a mandate to implement it. |
They have a mandate according to the rules of the system as it stands. But no, I don't think they had a legitimate mandate to introduce the poll tax.
And I'd agree that our system has delivered many other policies and governments not supported by the majority of the electorate, from blues and reds over decades.
You might call it a 'piss poor' argument, I'd call it a democratic one. [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 7:22]
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 22:25 - Jun 27 with 5018 views | StokieBlue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 20:49 - Jun 27 by Dolly2.0 |
And if my auntie had bowlocks she'd be my uncle.
None of this that you and Stokie have mentioned has happened. You don't know McDonnell would be Jezza's successor and he isn't chancellor. |
Come on Dolly, that makes no sense and I'm sure you know that.
The shadow chancellor usually becomes chancellor if they win and implements thier economic policy as per the election manifesto.
You're really clutching at straws here.
SB |  |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 23:29 - Jun 27 with 4984 views | Dolly2.0 |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 22:25 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
Come on Dolly, that makes no sense and I'm sure you know that.
The shadow chancellor usually becomes chancellor if they win and implements thier economic policy as per the election manifesto.
You're really clutching at straws here.
SB |
What makes no sense? We were talking about McDonnell's relevance to my life right now.
You said, "If JC had got in then he would now be chancellor". But JC didn't get in! I've said many times I didn't expect him to (no-one did) but I hoped he would reduce the Tory majority.
When and if Labour do win in the future there's no guarantee McDonnell will still be there waiting to be chancellor.
Glassers was talking about him taking over from JC when he retires - again conjecture. Labour might have someone else in mind by then.
I think it's you and Glassers who are clutching at straws with all these hypothetical examples that don't currently affect my life in any way. | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 23:42 - Jun 27 with 4979 views | StokieBlue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 23:29 - Jun 27 by Dolly2.0 |
What makes no sense? We were talking about McDonnell's relevance to my life right now.
You said, "If JC had got in then he would now be chancellor". But JC didn't get in! I've said many times I didn't expect him to (no-one did) but I hoped he would reduce the Tory majority.
When and if Labour do win in the future there's no guarantee McDonnell will still be there waiting to be chancellor.
Glassers was talking about him taking over from JC when he retires - again conjecture. Labour might have someone else in mind by then.
I think it's you and Glassers who are clutching at straws with all these hypothetical examples that don't currently affect my life in any way. |
Why are you willing to comment on JC who isn't relevant at the moment and not McDonnell?
Opinions have to be based on current knowledge. Currently he is shadow chancellor, if JC gets in he will be chancellor. They are as thick as thieves, he's going nowhere.
Given this both McDonnell's views and JC's judgement in appointing him are legitimate things to question.
Not really that hard to say if you think his comments were detestable and whether JC should be distancing himself from him.
Enjoy your evening.
SB [Post edited 27 Jun 2017 23:44]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 00:26 - Jun 28 with 4956 views | Dolly2.0 |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 23:42 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
Why are you willing to comment on JC who isn't relevant at the moment and not McDonnell?
Opinions have to be based on current knowledge. Currently he is shadow chancellor, if JC gets in he will be chancellor. They are as thick as thieves, he's going nowhere.
Given this both McDonnell's views and JC's judgement in appointing him are legitimate things to question.
Not really that hard to say if you think his comments were detestable and whether JC should be distancing himself from him.
Enjoy your evening.
SB [Post edited 27 Jun 2017 23:44]
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I've already stated my thoughts on his comments. Are they based in fact? If they are he has a point. If not, they're detestable.
Also it's very easy to make controversial comments when not in power. If he were chancellor maybe he wouldn't say such things.
Either way, he's not chancellor, he doesn't look like being so any time soon, so the point it moot. I've already said I don't give a monkey's about him, I don't know much about him or have much of an opinion on him, so why are you still badgering me about him?
If you carry on I'm going to start badgering you about Sue Pollard until you give me a definitive answer into her thoughts, feelings and motivations. | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 07:02 - Jun 28 with 4913 views | StokieBlue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 00:26 - Jun 28 by Dolly2.0 |
I've already stated my thoughts on his comments. Are they based in fact? If they are he has a point. If not, they're detestable.
Also it's very easy to make controversial comments when not in power. If he were chancellor maybe he wouldn't say such things.
Either way, he's not chancellor, he doesn't look like being so any time soon, so the point it moot. I've already said I don't give a monkey's about him, I don't know much about him or have much of an opinion on him, so why are you still badgering me about him?
If you carry on I'm going to start badgering you about Sue Pollard until you give me a definitive answer into her thoughts, feelings and motivations. |
OK.
I do find it rather strange that someone could be such an advocate of the Corbyn labour party yet they don't care or have available opinion on the second most powerful person in that movement. You say it's irrelevant but you voted for his economic policies when you voted for JC. It could have been very relevant given how rubbish the Tory campaign was.
It's almost as if people think Corbyn is the labour party.
I'll leave it there though, I really don't want to have to spend any time thinking about Sue Pollard.
Enjoy your day.
SB [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 7:34]
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 07:11 - Jun 28 with 4902 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 18:19 - Jun 27 by GlasgowBlue |
Over steps it's mandate? The Community Charge (Poll Tax) was in the Conservative manifesto of 1987 which saw the Tories win a landslide.
What you are saying is if you don't like a particular method of paying for services then you are entitled to riot.
I'm sure you will sympathise if the higher tax rate payers start rioting over what they believe is an unfair system of taxation? |
Imagine the field day the media would have if he referred to them say as "the enemy within" !
http://the-enemy-within.org.uk/ | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 07:24 - Jun 28 with 4889 views | GlasgowBlue |
I'm nit sure what relevance that has to my reply to your post regarding the community charge "overstepping their mandate"?
Or did you just want to shoehorn it into the thread? | |
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 07:31 - Jun 28 with 4882 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 07:24 - Jun 28 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm nit sure what relevance that has to my reply to your post regarding the community charge "overstepping their mandate"?
Or did you just want to shoehorn it into the thread? |
It was a response to the prospect of the rich rioting .
Edit....anyway you talking about shoehorning is a bit rich ! [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 7:33]
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| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 07:36 - Jun 28 with 4874 views | GlasgowBlue |
| John Mcdonald Just heard his Glastonbury rant. on 07:31 - Jun 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It was a response to the prospect of the rich rioting .
Edit....anyway you talking about shoehorning is a bit rich ! [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 7:33]
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I didn't mention the rich. You have used the word twice. | |
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