| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:40 - Sep 29 with 5778 views | Swansea_Blue |
Didn't they already try that with the Terra Lliure? Didn't get them very far.
Interesting times around Europe, will be very interesting to see how this all pans out. |  |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:42 - Sep 29 with 5763 views | giant_stow |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:40 - Sep 29 by Swansea_Blue |
Didn't they already try that with the Terra Lliure? Didn't get them very far.
Interesting times around Europe, will be very interesting to see how this all pans out. |
1st line: right over my head
Will the Catalan coppers stop the voters or not? and will the Catalan leader really declear independence 48 hours later? As Ambrose says, this could make Brexit look easy. |  |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:47 - Sep 29 with 5747 views | MVBlue |
I once live in a stable world and wondered how things looked in the 70s when things seemed less stable.
Now I feel the global instability, one day after the other, as it seems history repeats itself:
Nations talk of war in front of the U.N.
Nations vote for self-interest and right-wing parties
Spain cannot hold itself from civil unrest
Terrorists attack civilians at random with little defined logic
The world is crying out for great leaders and negiotiators, I feel they exisited in the past but now we are devoid of many. [Post edited 29 Sep 2017 13:48]
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:49 - Sep 29 with 5737 views | StokieBlue |
It's a country at war with itself at the moment. The heavy handed way the central government has tried to ban the vote isn't helping - sending in police to stop people voting is hardly the values that Europe was founded on. The problem here is that there is nothing in the constitution allowing succession.
The wider problem is that if Catalonia goes then Andalucia and the Basque regions won't be far behind.
I am sure CiL can give you a better overview of the situation though.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:57 - Sep 29 with 5696 views | giant_stow |
The Catalan 'Diada' taps into deep historical loyalties, not least the raw legacy of the civil war
While the EU watches in disbelief, a remote threat has mushroomed suddenly into an existential crisis. It is even more intractable than Brexit, and certainly more dangerous.
The volcanic events unfolding by the day in Catalonia threaten the EU project within its core. They pose a direct threat to the integrity of monetary union.
Former French premier Manuel Valls — son of a celebrated Catalan painter — warns that if this weekend’s banned vote on independence goes ahead and leads to Catalan secession, it will be “the end of Europe” as a meaningful mission.
Those old enough to remember the Spanish Civil War can only shudder at TV footage of crowds across Spain cheering units of Guardia Civil as they leave for Catalonia, egged on with chants of “go get them”.
As matters stand, 14 senior Catalan officials have been arrested. There have been dawn raids on the Catalan Generalitat, including the presidency, the economics ministry, and foreign affairs office.
Scuffles erupt in Barclona over Catalan referendum Scuffles erupt in Barclona over Catalan referendum
01:19
Officials preparing for the vote have been interrogated. The Guardia Civil has been deployed to seize ballots sheets and to prevent the referendum from taking place, if necessary by coercive means.
The Catalan security forces — Mossos d’Esquadra — have told the Spanish authorities that they will not carry out orders to shut down voting sites if this leads to civil disorder. Their higher duty is to Catalan cohesion, or "convivència ciutadana". It is defiance, a little like the British Army’s Curragh Mutiny in March 1914.
The government of Mariano Rajoy insists that the Guardia Civil is being sent to preserve the constitutional order and inviolable integrity of Spain.
Catalonia’s leaders call it fatally-misguided repression that risks spinning out of control. “We will never forget what has happened. We will never forget this aggression, this prohibition of opinion,” said Carles Puigdemont, the Catalan leader. The contrast with the Scottish referendum in 2014 is self-evident.
Markets have yet react to this showdown even though the Spanish finance minister, Luis de Guindos, has openly warned that Catalonia will suffer a “brutal pauperisation” if it presses ahead. He said the region would suffer a collapse in GDP of 25pc to 30pc, a doubling of unemployment, and a devaluation of up to 50pc once it had been thrown out of the euro.
We will never forget what has happened. We will never forget this aggression, this prohibition of opinion
This is a threat, not a prediction. Such a collapse would occur only if Spain chooses to bring it about by making life hell for the Catalan state: by closing its economic borders, by using its veto in Brussels to ensure that Catalonia cannot rejoin the EU or remain in monetary union, and by blocking Catalan accession to global bodies such as the International Monetary Fund.
The problem for Spain is that if it acted in such a fashion, it would bring a commensurate catastrophe upon itself. Catalonia is the richest and most dynamic region of Spain — along with the Basque country — and makes up a fifth of the economy.
Such circumstances would entail a partial break-up of the euro, re-opening that Pandora’s Box. The status of Spain’s sovereign debt would be unclear. Why would the Catalans uphold their share of these liabilities if subjected to a boycott?
Markets would have to presume that the debts of the rump kingdom would no longer be 99pc of GDP but more like 120pc. This burden would be borne by a poorer society and one that would necessarily be in an economic slump itself.
The Bank Of Spain played down the crisis on Thursday, saying only that Spanish borrowing costs would rise if tensions worsened. “It would initially affect the sovereign risk rating, and afterwards spread through other interest rates,” it said. So far the silence from the rating agencies has been deafening.
It is not for foreigners to take sides in a historical dispute of such emotion, drenched in mythology, with the wounds of Franquismo and Las Jornadas de Mayo raw to this day. Catalan nationalists date the original sin to 1714 when Philip V abolished their institutions and imposed Castilian laws — and absolutism — by right of conquest.
What seems clear is that Mr Rajoy and his Partido Popular have provoked a Catalan backlash by blocking enhanced devolution that had already been agreed with the outgoing Socialist government. What the Catalans want is a settlement on the Basque model with their own budget and tax-raising powers.
Mr Rajoy then exploited the eurozone banking crisis to try to break the power of the regions, forcing Catalonia to request a €5bn (£4.4bn) rescue even though it is a net contributor to the Spanish state. He has since hid behind mechanical legalism.
You might equally blame the Catalan nationalists for charging ahead with a referendum barred by the constitutional court, creating a mood of division between ‘Remainers’ and ‘Leavers’. Yet they were sorely provoked. Mr Rajoy’s heavy-handed response has since been so inept that he may have created a majority for independence where none existed before.
Catalan flag
Barcelona’s mayor called on the EU to 'defend the fundamental rights of Catalan citizens against a wave of repression from the Spanish state'
The problem for the EU is that it is a prisoner to legal rigidities. Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker has had to back Mr Rajoy and the Spanish constitutional order because that is how the EU system works. This has made Brussels a party to alleged abuses in Catalan eyes.
Barcelona’s mayor Ada Colau — who opposes secession — has called on the EU to “defend the fundamental rights of Catalan citizens against a wave of repression from the Spanish state".
“Europe cannot allow itself to adopt a passive position over the Catalan question, seeing that the events going on in Barcelona are affecting Paris, Madrid, Brussels, and Berlin alike,” she wrote in the Guardian.
We will find out on Sunday whether or not the Catalan people turn out to queue defiantly at locked polling stations, manned by the Guardia Civil. A declaration of unilateral independence is not yet “on the table”, said Mr Puigdemont. Not yet.
The EU is in a horrible bind. It faces a rule of law crisis in Hungary and Poland. It faces an East European revolt over migrant quotas. Its relations with Turkey have turned hostile. Now Spain is threatening to break up the euro unless the Catalans come to heel.
Brexit is surely the least of their problems, and one that can be solved so easily with an ounce of common sense. | |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:58 - Sep 29 with 5691 views | TJS |
I'm pretty sure the EU have said if they declare and implement independence they are out of the EU. |  | | |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:58 - Sep 29 with 5681 views | giant_stow |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:49 - Sep 29 by StokieBlue |
It's a country at war with itself at the moment. The heavy handed way the central government has tried to ban the vote isn't helping - sending in police to stop people voting is hardly the values that Europe was founded on. The problem here is that there is nothing in the constitution allowing succession.
The wider problem is that if Catalonia goes then Andalucia and the Basque regions won't be far behind.
I am sure CiL can give you a better overview of the situation though.
SB |
The angle the police take seems to be key innit. With apologies for being a bit icky, I'll be watching the news on Sunday like I would for a football score. | |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 14:00 - Sep 29 with 5671 views | TJS |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:58 - Sep 29 by giant_stow |
The angle the police take seems to be key innit. With apologies for being a bit icky, I'll be watching the news on Sunday like I would for a football score. |
Yes it could be fascinating in a car crash type of way. | | | |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 14:01 - Sep 29 with 5665 views | giant_stow |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:58 - Sep 29 by TJS |
I'm pretty sure the EU have said if they declare and implement independence they are out of the EU. |
really?
Blimey, not a lot diplomacy going on then. | |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 14:03 - Sep 29 with 5642 views | giant_stow |
I can't read your link either!
To be fair, the Guardian have been reporting on this big time too. | |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 14:19 - Sep 29 with 5596 views | WeWereZombies |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 14:03 - Sep 29 by giant_stow |
I can't read your link either!
To be fair, the Guardian have been reporting on this big time too. |
Pro-Scottish independence activists held a protest inside the Spanish Consulate in Edinburgh to back Catalonia’s right to hold a referendum on self-determination.
The Spanish government has declared the planned October 1 vote illegal.
Members of the Scottish Resistance group left the building after less than 10 minutes.
Six members of the Scottish Resistance group went into the consulate building on North Castle Street, Edinburgh on Wednesday.
They unfurled a banner and stayed for a few minutes before leaving.
Police were called to the scene but said no crime had been committed.
James Scott, founder of Scottish Resistance, said: “It was a successful protest, we got into the Spanish consulate.
“We are in full support of the people of Catalonia. The Spanish government are not allowing a free vote to the people of Catalonia.”
The Scottish Resistance have made headlines in recent years thanks to a series of attention-grabbing stunts, including a protest outside the Tunnock’s confectionary factory in Uddingston in a bizarre row over packaging.
In 2016, they issued a ‘Declaration of Glasgow’ on the 696th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath, a letter sent by Scottish nobles in 1320 to Pope John XXII to reaffirm the country’s independence.
Copies of the group’s declaration were be sent to Barack Obama, Vladimir Putin and Ban Ki-moon, secretary-general of the United Nations. |  |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 09:05 - Sep 30 with 5379 views | solemio |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:47 - Sep 29 by MVBlue |
I once live in a stable world and wondered how things looked in the 70s when things seemed less stable.
Now I feel the global instability, one day after the other, as it seems history repeats itself:
Nations talk of war in front of the U.N.
Nations vote for self-interest and right-wing parties
Spain cannot hold itself from civil unrest
Terrorists attack civilians at random with little defined logic
The world is crying out for great leaders and negiotiators, I feel they exisited in the past but now we are devoid of many. [Post edited 29 Sep 2017 13:48]
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The days of the Balance of Terror were great days. And I really mean that most sincerely, folks. |  | | |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 09:25 - Sep 30 with 5350 views | BorisOrTrevor |
In response to your very headline sentence, I think only one word needed.
Good. |  |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 09:28 - Sep 30 with 5342 views | WeWereZombies |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 09:25 - Sep 30 by BorisOrTrevor |
In response to your very headline sentence, I think only one word needed.
Good. |
You do realise that geographically (and tectonically if the geography criterion is too political) the United Kingdom is part of Europe? | |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 09:51 - Sep 30 with 5306 views | BorisOrTrevor |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 09:28 - Sep 30 by WeWereZombies |
You do realise that geographically (and tectonically if the geography criterion is too political) the United Kingdom is part of Europe? |
So on the one hand Geography and individual sovereignty is bad but then geography is invoked to prompt a We are all Europeans moment. Brainwashing. | |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 09:55 - Sep 30 with 5298 views | J2BLUE |
CIL needs to see the result before she can claim it's what 'they' wanted.
Only joking CIL!  |  |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:21 - Sep 30 with 5221 views | caught-in-limbo |
Hi there.
I was out of the country for 5 weeks this summer so I have a lot to catch up on.
I don't own a TV or read the newspapers.
My internet reading is largely focused on geopolitics.
That said, my students (in the Basque Country) are asking for my views so I imagine in a couple of weeks I'll have something to say on the matter.
What I can say (coming from my experience of similar Basque v the State situations) is that the media usually report such things in a very polarising way. The majority usually identify to some degree with both sides but they don't make the news and sometimes are not even reflected accurately in opinion polls.
Lastly, I find your title very interesting. Independence seekers in Spain are very pro Europe, but against the governing state. If indeed a breakaway happens which results in the death of Europe, it'll be a self-defeating exercise - but I'm sure the Catalans realise this.
I never rule out the possibility of outside influence, at which point this becomes a geopolitical issue and that will certainly pique* my interest more.
*Please excuse the Catalan pun. |  |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:24 - Sep 30 with 5216 views | StokieBlue |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:21 - Sep 30 by caught-in-limbo |
Hi there.
I was out of the country for 5 weeks this summer so I have a lot to catch up on.
I don't own a TV or read the newspapers.
My internet reading is largely focused on geopolitics.
That said, my students (in the Basque Country) are asking for my views so I imagine in a couple of weeks I'll have something to say on the matter.
What I can say (coming from my experience of similar Basque v the State situations) is that the media usually report such things in a very polarising way. The majority usually identify to some degree with both sides but they don't make the news and sometimes are not even reflected accurately in opinion polls.
Lastly, I find your title very interesting. Independence seekers in Spain are very pro Europe, but against the governing state. If indeed a breakaway happens which results in the death of Europe, it'll be a self-defeating exercise - but I'm sure the Catalans realise this.
I never rule out the possibility of outside influence, at which point this becomes a geopolitical issue and that will certainly pique* my interest more.
*Please excuse the Catalan pun. |
"I never rule out the possibility of outside influence, at which point this becomes a geopolitical issue and that will certainly pique* my interest more. "
You honestly think an external power is trying to destabilise Spain and the EU? That's up there with you best conspiracy theories - tell us more!
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:32 - Sep 30 with 5201 views | caught-in-limbo |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:24 - Sep 30 by StokieBlue |
"I never rule out the possibility of outside influence, at which point this becomes a geopolitical issue and that will certainly pique* my interest more. "
You honestly think an external power is trying to destabilise Spain and the EU? That's up there with you best conspiracy theories - tell us more!
SB |
No, I don't honestly think that, but like I said, I never rule out the possibility of outside influence.
I can think of a handful of groups that might want Spain split up and Europe too - there are people and groups which always benefit from change. But I'm not considering them at the moment.
I'll watch what happens and talk about it once I'm more informed. | |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:35 - Sep 30 with 5201 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:32 - Sep 30 by caught-in-limbo |
No, I don't honestly think that, but like I said, I never rule out the possibility of outside influence.
I can think of a handful of groups that might want Spain split up and Europe too - there are people and groups which always benefit from change. But I'm not considering them at the moment.
I'll watch what happens and talk about it once I'm more informed. |
Is it the subject of debate around you ? Or does nobody outside of Catalonia care at the moment? |  |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:38 - Sep 30 with 5191 views | caught-in-limbo |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:35 - Sep 30 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Is it the subject of debate around you ? Or does nobody outside of Catalonia care at the moment? |
The only people who don't care or are not interested are those who are completely sick of politicians. There's quite a few of them around at the moment. | |
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| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 11:50 - Sep 30 with 5183 views | BarcaBlue |
| The Catalans are gonna kill Europe on 13:49 - Sep 29 by StokieBlue |
It's a country at war with itself at the moment. The heavy handed way the central government has tried to ban the vote isn't helping - sending in police to stop people voting is hardly the values that Europe was founded on. The problem here is that there is nothing in the constitution allowing succession.
The wider problem is that if Catalonia goes then Andalucia and the Basque regions won't be far behind.
I am sure CiL can give you a better overview of the situation though.
SB |
Andalucia, very unlikely given the send off the Guardia Civil were given from Huelva this week - maybe the Canary Islands are more interested. Bizarrely the Guardia Civil are staying on a Looney Tunes themed ship in the port of Barcelona, with a big TweetiePie painted on the side.
On a personal level it seems that in 3 days time I could be excluded from the EU for a second time without the right to vote on either occasion. |  | | |
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