| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? 08:02 - Nov 27 with 11811 views | christiand |
Joking aside, with no further investment - from ME towards the squad - would Pep Guardiola improve our style of play if he was out manager? I appreciate that this question is purely hypothetical, he has managed only sides with copious amounts of money and has had the best players to select from. However, if he wants a 'real' challenge I would love to see how he would get on with our current squad of players.
What do we think? |  |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 12:27 - Nov 27 with 3398 views | ITFCBlues |
Unless he gets a £500m warchest like at Man City it’s unlikely |  |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 13:02 - Nov 27 with 3378 views | monty_radio |
Both Robson and Ramsey started by making a silk purse out of a sows ear till, in Robson's case at least, he was able elevate the skill levels of the team. True, some like Wark, Beattie and Burley were youth products, but incoming talent like Hunter, Mariner, Muhren and Thijssen raised the levels further and, presumably, were only tempted to come because lift-off had already been achieved.
As to Pep, we could introduce him to a variation on the old East Anglian joke:
Pep: How do you think we're going to get to Wembley
Towen yokel: If I were you, I wouldn't start from here.
He would neither have the patience, nor need to, because there could be many better potential offers available, even in this division. Sirs R & R made their reputations here - Pep's could only suffer by association. [Post edited 27 Nov 2017 16:09]
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 13:04 - Nov 27 with 3375 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 11:18 - Nov 27 by christiand |
To counter your argument it is like MM is indispensable, quite frankly no one is. I do appreciate where you are coming from, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a new appointment means all doom and gloom and we're instantly on a downward spiral. Quite frankly it could have the opposite effect and by christ we need it!
Lets be honest, we have started the season reasonably well, however we could quite conceivably finish were we were last season - its not out of the realms of possibility we are only 3 points ahead of Brentford who are 15th. So MM is then still the best option? Who'd have thought that Chris Wilder would've done so well with Sheffield United this season there are still gems out there if we are prepared to look properly and do our research, but we don't have to believe that MM is the best we can get and deserve! |
You don't seem to understand my argument.
I'm not saying Mick is indispensable, just at the better end of the 'hoofball' breed of managers in terms of getting the best of things at this club as we stand.
My argument is that you need a manager better than him, AND playing 'good' football to take us forward. You and others seem to be suggesting anyone who plays 'good' football will take us forward. They will not.
I'm all for moving on from Mick, and all for playing better football, but it's not as simple as you and others are making out, and priority should be a better manager not a 'good football for the sake of it' manager. |  | | |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 13:14 - Nov 27 with 3372 views | BadgerBajner |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 08:43 - Nov 27 by christiand |
If that is the case, then that goes against the main argument on here that we can't compete or play a better style of football against those clubs that have a squad that has been heavily invested in. SO if that is true Magic, then it is down to the quality of coaching the players are receiving on a daily basis? [Post edited 27 Nov 2017 8:45]
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Absolutely. There's many who want to defend the way we play and MM, by saying we don't have the money to invest in players to play an attractive style of football. That's nonsense.
Put the question another way, would Guardiola come here and play a negative style of football? Of course not. I have said before, our style of football and the type of players we have, are because that's what MM wants. We would have the same type of players if MM was given £30M to spend. [Post edited 27 Nov 2017 13:15]
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 13:38 - Nov 27 with 3360 views | christiand |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 13:04 - Nov 27 by Axeldalai_lama |
You don't seem to understand my argument.
I'm not saying Mick is indispensable, just at the better end of the 'hoofball' breed of managers in terms of getting the best of things at this club as we stand.
My argument is that you need a manager better than him, AND playing 'good' football to take us forward. You and others seem to be suggesting anyone who plays 'good' football will take us forward. They will not.
I'm all for moving on from Mick, and all for playing better football, but it's not as simple as you and others are making out, and priority should be a better manager not a 'good football for the sake of it' manager. |
Of course. If you have a manager whose ethos is playing good football they know and understand how to do it and do it effectively. In MM's case his direct, route one approach he understands that best.
That's quite a statement anyone that plays 'good' football will take us forward - they will not. How do you know? That's just your opinion, not a fact. When you look at the players we have in our squad: McGoldrick, Huws, Bishop and Celina they are all 'footballing' footballers. They wouldn't benefit from a manager that encourages the ball to be kept on the floor? You could probably argue that there are probably a few others that might even excel with that approach - I bet Garner would much prefer receiving the ball to his feet. Can't be much fun watching the ball continually flying over your head the whole game when you are chasing around like a headless chicken.
We could employ a manager with the same managerial ability, but with a completely different footballing philosophy and I believe that we would see a difference as we do have some good players in our squad. That's my opinion, not a fact Axeldalai. [Post edited 27 Nov 2017 13:40]
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 14:31 - Nov 27 with 3335 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 13:38 - Nov 27 by christiand |
Of course. If you have a manager whose ethos is playing good football they know and understand how to do it and do it effectively. In MM's case his direct, route one approach he understands that best.
That's quite a statement anyone that plays 'good' football will take us forward - they will not. How do you know? That's just your opinion, not a fact. When you look at the players we have in our squad: McGoldrick, Huws, Bishop and Celina they are all 'footballing' footballers. They wouldn't benefit from a manager that encourages the ball to be kept on the floor? You could probably argue that there are probably a few others that might even excel with that approach - I bet Garner would much prefer receiving the ball to his feet. Can't be much fun watching the ball continually flying over your head the whole game when you are chasing around like a headless chicken.
We could employ a manager with the same managerial ability, but with a completely different footballing philosophy and I believe that we would see a difference as we do have some good players in our squad. That's my opinion, not a fact Axeldalai. [Post edited 27 Nov 2017 13:40]
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What are you going on about?! Opinions, facts. It's not rocket science, I'm saying we shouldn't employ Barry Sh1tpeas, the coach of Canvey Islands third reserves who's team are bottom of the league, having lost every game 6-3 just because he gets them to play it out from the back.
It's not "quite a statement" to suggest getting someone who has a rubbish record but 'tries' to get his teams playing the right way will perform worse than we currently are. Sorry if it's not technically a fact.
I get it, you want "good football". But "good football" for the sake of it whilst treading water solves nothing. There's a massive difference between percieved "good football" and good management. "Good football" you understand is completely subjective, obviously.
Would you take a Sean Dyche over a lower league manager who could potentially play good football? | | | |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 14:49 - Nov 27 with 3328 views | itfcjoe |
Yes he would, he is clearly an unbelievable coach and motivator. |  |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 14:52 - Nov 27 with 3325 views | itfcjoe |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 14:31 - Nov 27 by Axeldalai_lama |
What are you going on about?! Opinions, facts. It's not rocket science, I'm saying we shouldn't employ Barry Sh1tpeas, the coach of Canvey Islands third reserves who's team are bottom of the league, having lost every game 6-3 just because he gets them to play it out from the back.
It's not "quite a statement" to suggest getting someone who has a rubbish record but 'tries' to get his teams playing the right way will perform worse than we currently are. Sorry if it's not technically a fact.
I get it, you want "good football". But "good football" for the sake of it whilst treading water solves nothing. There's a massive difference between percieved "good football" and good management. "Good football" you understand is completely subjective, obviously.
Would you take a Sean Dyche over a lower league manager who could potentially play good football? |
Would you take Jose Mourinho over Karl Robinson?
Mourinho is the ultimate pragmatist, and he'd have us playing worse football than Mick, but more succesfully! | |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 14:57 - Nov 27 with 3315 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 11:18 - Nov 27 by christiand |
To counter your argument it is like MM is indispensable, quite frankly no one is. I do appreciate where you are coming from, but it doesn't necessarily mean that a new appointment means all doom and gloom and we're instantly on a downward spiral. Quite frankly it could have the opposite effect and by christ we need it!
Lets be honest, we have started the season reasonably well, however we could quite conceivably finish were we were last season - its not out of the realms of possibility we are only 3 points ahead of Brentford who are 15th. So MM is then still the best option? Who'd have thought that Chris Wilder would've done so well with Sheffield United this season there are still gems out there if we are prepared to look properly and do our research, but we don't have to believe that MM is the best we can get and deserve! |
Mick isn’t indispensable and I don’t believe anyone thinks he is
The point however that some posters have tried to make is that Mick is one of the better managers at this level, particularly in relation to our budget. Therefore chances are that is more likely that the replacement will be worse than better
That’s not a reason to stick with him blindly, and it’s definitely reaches (probably past) the point that a change would be best for all involved. But it’s going to take something of a home run to get a replacement that can have us both higher in the table and playing better football, IMO |  |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 15:01 - Nov 27 with 3308 views | WestSussexBlue |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 08:43 - Nov 27 by christiand |
If that is the case, then that goes against the main argument on here that we can't compete or play a better style of football against those clubs that have a squad that has been heavily invested in. SO if that is true Magic, then it is down to the quality of coaching the players are receiving on a daily basis? [Post edited 27 Nov 2017 8:45]
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Which is a point I’ve made previously.
Another manager would “manage” players differently, train differently expect more but despite MM insistence he is not the be all and end all.
Don’t buy in to the “ be Careful..... crap | | | |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 15:18 - Nov 27 with 3297 views | christiand |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 14:31 - Nov 27 by Axeldalai_lama |
What are you going on about?! Opinions, facts. It's not rocket science, I'm saying we shouldn't employ Barry Sh1tpeas, the coach of Canvey Islands third reserves who's team are bottom of the league, having lost every game 6-3 just because he gets them to play it out from the back.
It's not "quite a statement" to suggest getting someone who has a rubbish record but 'tries' to get his teams playing the right way will perform worse than we currently are. Sorry if it's not technically a fact.
I get it, you want "good football". But "good football" for the sake of it whilst treading water solves nothing. There's a massive difference between percieved "good football" and good management. "Good football" you understand is completely subjective, obviously.
Would you take a Sean Dyche over a lower league manager who could potentially play good football? |
The fact that we have lost so much support over the last 18 months shows that there are a lot of us that aren't happy. Look, I understand your point of view, but you also have to accept that ME might make an appointment that might actually improve us on the pitch.
You are making quite a lot of sweeping statements that aren't based on any facts, however much you believe it personally. If you are asking whether I would like Sean Dyche or someone like Eddie Howe (rather than the bloke from Canvey Island) as our next manager -both hypothetical I appreciate. It would be Eddie Howe all day long. The man appreciates what is needed to play good football and has done it in every league. Yes, some will say he has had money to spend, but bottom line is he knows how to get sides playing football in the right way and has achieved that in League 2, 1, the Championship and the Premier League. MM I can't understand what he is trying to achieve here. When he first came in the football was necessary to avoid relegation. Now 4 seasons down the line where is the improvement? The little bit of football we played at the beginning of the season is now long gone, we are back to just aimless punts forward.
I'm happy in taking a step backwards if it means us moving forwards in the long term. Currently, I just feel we are now stuck and we have listen to MM giving us all his BS that he is the best thing since sliced bread. Really? His type of play and management is two a penny this day and age. | |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 15:21 - Nov 27 with 3292 views | christiand |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 14:57 - Nov 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Mick isn’t indispensable and I don’t believe anyone thinks he is
The point however that some posters have tried to make is that Mick is one of the better managers at this level, particularly in relation to our budget. Therefore chances are that is more likely that the replacement will be worse than better
That’s not a reason to stick with him blindly, and it’s definitely reaches (probably past) the point that a change would be best for all involved. But it’s going to take something of a home run to get a replacement that can have us both higher in the table and playing better football, IMO |
That's very measured and it is hard for me to disagree. I just don't wholeheartedly agree that once MM goes it is all going downhill for the club. There are always two potential ways that the story could go, that could also mean upwards too! | |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 15:36 - Nov 27 with 3281 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 15:18 - Nov 27 by christiand |
The fact that we have lost so much support over the last 18 months shows that there are a lot of us that aren't happy. Look, I understand your point of view, but you also have to accept that ME might make an appointment that might actually improve us on the pitch.
You are making quite a lot of sweeping statements that aren't based on any facts, however much you believe it personally. If you are asking whether I would like Sean Dyche or someone like Eddie Howe (rather than the bloke from Canvey Island) as our next manager -both hypothetical I appreciate. It would be Eddie Howe all day long. The man appreciates what is needed to play good football and has done it in every league. Yes, some will say he has had money to spend, but bottom line is he knows how to get sides playing football in the right way and has achieved that in League 2, 1, the Championship and the Premier League. MM I can't understand what he is trying to achieve here. When he first came in the football was necessary to avoid relegation. Now 4 seasons down the line where is the improvement? The little bit of football we played at the beginning of the season is now long gone, we are back to just aimless punts forward.
I'm happy in taking a step backwards if it means us moving forwards in the long term. Currently, I just feel we are now stuck and we have listen to MM giving us all his BS that he is the best thing since sliced bread. Really? His type of play and management is two a penny this day and age. |
It's pretty simple. You are prioritising "good football".
I'm not asking Sean Dyche vs Eddie Howe, why did you change it?
I'm saying do you prioritise potential "good football" to the extent that you'd risk an unproven lower league manager over someone who may play more proven direct pragmatic football like a Sean Dyche or, as someone else said, Mourinho?
I'm not sure what sweeping statements I'm making. I've said I'd be happy to see Mick gone, and happy to see us play better football.
You just seem to equate this to anyone with a tippy tappy philosophy strolling in and it probably all going well. I'm saying it's not that simple or we and everyone else would be doing it. I'm saying I can handle "worse" football if we get towards the top of the table more than I can handle someone coming in and us dropping like a stone whilst having 70% possesion.
I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to come in and take over and get us playing great and move us up the league, it's clearly just very unlikely, and much more so than you are willing to admit. | | | |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 16:34 - Nov 27 with 3258 views | christiand |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 15:36 - Nov 27 by Axeldalai_lama |
It's pretty simple. You are prioritising "good football".
I'm not asking Sean Dyche vs Eddie Howe, why did you change it?
I'm saying do you prioritise potential "good football" to the extent that you'd risk an unproven lower league manager over someone who may play more proven direct pragmatic football like a Sean Dyche or, as someone else said, Mourinho?
I'm not sure what sweeping statements I'm making. I've said I'd be happy to see Mick gone, and happy to see us play better football.
You just seem to equate this to anyone with a tippy tappy philosophy strolling in and it probably all going well. I'm saying it's not that simple or we and everyone else would be doing it. I'm saying I can handle "worse" football if we get towards the top of the table more than I can handle someone coming in and us dropping like a stone whilst having 70% possesion.
I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to come in and take over and get us playing great and move us up the league, it's clearly just very unlikely, and much more so than you are willing to admit. |
I look at someone like the Luton Town manager Nathan Jones . He has got the Hatters playing decent football and is slowly developing that club, you can see what he is trying to achieve. Would I take the risk of employing him at Ipswich Town? Me personally, yes I would. Someone hungry to prove themselves and has a decent track record in the lower leagues. He can manage sides on a smaller budget, but probably already recognises some of the talent down there, those players who could make it at a higher level would only benefit us.
I used Eddie Howe in comparison to Sean Dyche as I would prioritise good football over the pragmatic approach. I was trying to give you a like for like comparison instead of your ridiculous rant of the Canvey Island suggestion. Mourinho or Guardiola - pragmatic against good football - Guardiola every time for me. Look at Guardiola's record against Mourinho. It is not often Jose defeats Pep.
Your view is different to mine, which I accept that is why football is so great. Everyone is entitled to their own view and it is amazing how everybody sees things so differently. | |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 17:04 - Nov 27 with 3241 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 16:34 - Nov 27 by christiand |
I look at someone like the Luton Town manager Nathan Jones . He has got the Hatters playing decent football and is slowly developing that club, you can see what he is trying to achieve. Would I take the risk of employing him at Ipswich Town? Me personally, yes I would. Someone hungry to prove themselves and has a decent track record in the lower leagues. He can manage sides on a smaller budget, but probably already recognises some of the talent down there, those players who could make it at a higher level would only benefit us.
I used Eddie Howe in comparison to Sean Dyche as I would prioritise good football over the pragmatic approach. I was trying to give you a like for like comparison instead of your ridiculous rant of the Canvey Island suggestion. Mourinho or Guardiola - pragmatic against good football - Guardiola every time for me. Look at Guardiola's record against Mourinho. It is not often Jose defeats Pep.
Your view is different to mine, which I accept that is why football is so great. Everyone is entitled to their own view and it is amazing how everybody sees things so differently. |
"Your view is different to mine". We both think Mick should move on, we both want better football, so is this difference in views just that you think it's easier and I don't?
It is widely agreed that the championship is a rough, ragged, attritional league with many more teams playing pragmatic robust type football than playing stylish stuff. Why do you think most do this?
I used the "ridiculous rant" because you didn't take for a fact that Mick was better than 'anyone' who wants to play football, no matter how poor a record they had.
I have clearly said that I prioritise results over style, so my question was perfectly valid. A more established, better record manager who is more direct, or a less known, achieved less manager who will play prettier? I used the bigger names as it could have been Mourinho you started this debate with, not Guardiola, and the result would be the same. It's not because Guardiola plays prettier football that he'd likely do better at town it's that he's a better manager, as is Mourinho in all likelyhood.
Prettier football or results, you never quite say it? | | | |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 17:23 - Nov 27 with 3230 views | christiand |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 17:04 - Nov 27 by Axeldalai_lama |
"Your view is different to mine". We both think Mick should move on, we both want better football, so is this difference in views just that you think it's easier and I don't?
It is widely agreed that the championship is a rough, ragged, attritional league with many more teams playing pragmatic robust type football than playing stylish stuff. Why do you think most do this?
I used the "ridiculous rant" because you didn't take for a fact that Mick was better than 'anyone' who wants to play football, no matter how poor a record they had.
I have clearly said that I prioritise results over style, so my question was perfectly valid. A more established, better record manager who is more direct, or a less known, achieved less manager who will play prettier? I used the bigger names as it could have been Mourinho you started this debate with, not Guardiola, and the result would be the same. It's not because Guardiola plays prettier football that he'd likely do better at town it's that he's a better manager, as is Mourinho in all likelyhood.
Prettier football or results, you never quite say it? |
I think I've made it perfectly clear in my previous posts on my stance - I can't make it any clearer when I have given you suggestions too. Keep taking the medication or if that isn't working go and sit in a darkened room - you need to chill out! | |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 17:49 - Nov 27 with 3221 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 17:23 - Nov 27 by christiand |
I think I've made it perfectly clear in my previous posts on my stance - I can't make it any clearer when I have given you suggestions too. Keep taking the medication or if that isn't working go and sit in a darkened room - you need to chill out! |
I'm perfectly calm, ta, doesn't stress me out typing a few sentences.
It's just funny that we are agreeing in the main points but I can't see how some magic wand will be waved and we'll have a perfect coach come in. That leaves the 'I'm happy taking a few steps back to go forward, which is so dangerous imo. I just can't square that circle.
I'm happy for us to change coach, and we ultimately will, but I'm not deluding myself that it will be some magic fix and we'll play amazing football, and get amazing results. Hopefully it'll be better, and things will change for the better, but those over simplifying it and mocking people who say it's going to be a tough ask are annoying.
Good luck with your overview but I can't see it being anything other than hoping against hope it'll all work out amazingly. | | | |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 17:53 - Nov 27 with 3219 views | christiand |
| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 17:49 - Nov 27 by Axeldalai_lama |
I'm perfectly calm, ta, doesn't stress me out typing a few sentences.
It's just funny that we are agreeing in the main points but I can't see how some magic wand will be waved and we'll have a perfect coach come in. That leaves the 'I'm happy taking a few steps back to go forward, which is so dangerous imo. I just can't square that circle.
I'm happy for us to change coach, and we ultimately will, but I'm not deluding myself that it will be some magic fix and we'll play amazing football, and get amazing results. Hopefully it'll be better, and things will change for the better, but those over simplifying it and mocking people who say it's going to be a tough ask are annoying.
Good luck with your overview but I can't see it being anything other than hoping against hope it'll all work out amazingly. |
Let’s see what happens, but agree a change is long overdue for all concerned. | |
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| Would Pep Guardiola improve us? on 08:43 - Nov 28 with 3160 views | No9 |
Perhaps, just perhaps, if Pep was tempted to manage ITFC it would be because someone had decided to pay him decent wages and agreed to get him the players he needs to get promoted?
So the answer is YES! | | | |
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