| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... 16:20 - Sep 27 with 11492 views | chicoazul |
...in the forthcoming election (probably before Xmas btw, friends).
Simply put, the Maximum Leader and his cohort are such a bunch of absolute melts that they will, in effect, do what the EU tell them to. They have never negotiated anything more difficult than Islington council parking regulations or the rates to hire Hackney town hall so faced with Barnier they will simply end up accepting exactly what the EU want to give them. Since the EU want us to remain a key partner on economics, taxation, security, capital & people movement and egalitarianism this will be a straight forward agreement.
There are of course risks to this course, significant among them being that the Maximum Leader will himself be quickly stood down from his position by the Communist arrivistes headed by Seamus Milne. Swings and roundabouts. |  |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:10 - Sep 28 with 2167 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 13:41 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
Out of interest, how do you square the first paragraph with right-leaning parties being in power in Italy, Spain and ahead in the polls in France?
SB |
I don't understand what difference that makes. A government can be right, left or centre.
Are those governments any more further right than the Conservative party that throws a blanket over the centre-right and right and even went further to form an alliance with the DUP? And is even now playing up to the right-wing populism of UKIP and some even more unsavoury groups?
My point is that our "centre" has been skewed already too far to the right to be healthy. We're getting a bit like the US compared to the more genuine centre and balance in European politics. |  |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:18 - Sep 28 with 2147 views | giant_stow |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:10 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
I don't understand what difference that makes. A government can be right, left or centre.
Are those governments any more further right than the Conservative party that throws a blanket over the centre-right and right and even went further to form an alliance with the DUP? And is even now playing up to the right-wing populism of UKIP and some even more unsavoury groups?
My point is that our "centre" has been skewed already too far to the right to be healthy. We're getting a bit like the US compared to the more genuine centre and balance in European politics. |
hey, we're better than that!
Italy's letting drowning people drown. France keeps flirting with actually electing racists. Alternative for Deutschland have about a third of the vote (innit?! - not sure), The far right in sweeden did well at the last election - same with the dutch. Hungary are almost past the point of no return, poland heading the same way. The austrians nearly had a right righty as their boss... What have we done? We *might* make it harder for European immigrants to move here.
Edit: all from memory - if I have any of the above rant wrong, aplogies! [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 14:22]
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:18 - Sep 28 with 2146 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:10 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
I don't understand what difference that makes. A government can be right, left or centre.
Are those governments any more further right than the Conservative party that throws a blanket over the centre-right and right and even went further to form an alliance with the DUP? And is even now playing up to the right-wing populism of UKIP and some even more unsavoury groups?
My point is that our "centre" has been skewed already too far to the right to be healthy. We're getting a bit like the US compared to the more genuine centre and balance in European politics. |
"means our centre is a lot farther right than the rest of Western Europe."
You said we were further to the right, hence why I asked.
"more genuine centre and balance in European politics"
Once again I don't think this tallies with the reality of who is in power or ahead of the polls in Europe and returns to my original question of how you square it. It's not a big issue though, just wanted to know.
"My point is that our "centre" has been skewed already too far to the right to be healthy"
This could certainly be seen as a valid point, I just don't think the current European politic scene is a good place to go looking for genuine centrist parties.
SB |  |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:21 - Sep 28 with 2142 views | lowhouseblue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:10 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
I don't understand what difference that makes. A government can be right, left or centre.
Are those governments any more further right than the Conservative party that throws a blanket over the centre-right and right and even went further to form an alliance with the DUP? And is even now playing up to the right-wing populism of UKIP and some even more unsavoury groups?
My point is that our "centre" has been skewed already too far to the right to be healthy. We're getting a bit like the US compared to the more genuine centre and balance in European politics. |
it's the voters who get to define the centre. slagging the voters off because they're in the wrong place doesn't get you very far. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:32 - Sep 28 with 2105 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:18 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
"means our centre is a lot farther right than the rest of Western Europe."
You said we were further to the right, hence why I asked.
"more genuine centre and balance in European politics"
Once again I don't think this tallies with the reality of who is in power or ahead of the polls in Europe and returns to my original question of how you square it. It's not a big issue though, just wanted to know.
"My point is that our "centre" has been skewed already too far to the right to be healthy"
This could certainly be seen as a valid point, I just don't think the current European politic scene is a good place to go looking for genuine centrist parties.
SB |
There's a surprise, we disagree. On here, you have always had a blindspot re: centre-right and right politics and a strange fear of the left. You probably think the same about me in reverse.
But a centre-right view has been normalised in this country. Certainly compared to most of the rest of Europe and Northwestern Europe in particular.
Interesting you compare us to countries that have other issues being in the south of Europe and use them to argue they're even more right than us (have you seen their opposition parties and how far left they're coming from?) You can only think that if you think these countries are defined by their right-wing ideologues and fringe populists more than we are. And you can only do that if you think that our current government and where its power is coming from is relatively normal and centre-right. It isn't. [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 18:30]
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:37 - Sep 28 with 2096 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:21 - Sep 28 by lowhouseblue |
it's the voters who get to define the centre. slagging the voters off because they're in the wrong place doesn't get you very far. |
Thanks for that.
Might help if you thought more objectively about what left, right and centre mean, and whether we should aim for a left, right and centre like the US or more like our European neighbours.
I'd certainly not like to see our society go down the US path just because a legitimate left-wing and social democratic view is pretty much marginalised over there. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:38 - Sep 28 with 2092 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:32 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
There's a surprise, we disagree. On here, you have always had a blindspot re: centre-right and right politics and a strange fear of the left. You probably think the same about me in reverse.
But a centre-right view has been normalised in this country. Certainly compared to most of the rest of Europe and Northwestern Europe in particular.
Interesting you compare us to countries that have other issues being in the south of Europe and use them to argue they're even more right than us (have you seen their opposition parties and how far left they're coming from?) You can only think that if you think these countries are defined by their right-wing ideologues and fringe populists more than we are. And you can only do that if you think that our current government and where its power is coming from is relatively normal and centre-right. It isn't. [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 18:30]
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"Northwestern Europe in particular".
I suspected this is what you meant, you tend to centre on the Scandanavian countries and then lump the rest of Europe in with them excluding the UK.
All I said was the rest of Western Europe are fairly far right at the moment so I didn't think your example was fair. I am not sure why you've taken it as some sort of attack.
SB [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 14:39]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:45 - Sep 28 with 2073 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:38 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
"Northwestern Europe in particular".
I suspected this is what you meant, you tend to centre on the Scandanavian countries and then lump the rest of Europe in with them excluding the UK.
All I said was the rest of Western Europe are fairly far right at the moment so I didn't think your example was fair. I am not sure why you've taken it as some sort of attack.
SB [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 14:39]
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Scandinavia plus France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Finland too.
In fact all the countries that have been dealt similar cultural, climate cards and industrial/economic development.
I think you're absolutely playing up on SOME of them being "fairly far right" currently and more flavoured by coalition partners than anything else but utterly ignoring that we're just the same. And also ignoring that those have a genuine left to swing back to or centre where these are balanced out. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 15:00 - Sep 28 with 2053 views | lowhouseblue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:37 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
Thanks for that.
Might help if you thought more objectively about what left, right and centre mean, and whether we should aim for a left, right and centre like the US or more like our European neighbours.
I'd certainly not like to see our society go down the US path just because a legitimate left-wing and social democratic view is pretty much marginalised over there. |
but you're talking in abstractions. left and right only matter if they represent achievable options relative to something else. the british electorate may well be different from a 'european electorate' but they are what they are and they define the spectrum of credible politics in the uk. the credible left in britain may well be different from the left in some european countries - there are many historical and cultural reasons for that - but there's no point talking about political positions which are entirely abstract from the preferences of voters. I don't doubt that left, right and centre meant different things during the paris commune but that doesn't tell us much about political choices in the uk today. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 15:00 - Sep 28 with 2053 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:45 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
Scandinavia plus France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Finland too.
In fact all the countries that have been dealt similar cultural, climate cards and industrial/economic development.
I think you're absolutely playing up on SOME of them being "fairly far right" currently and more flavoured by coalition partners than anything else but utterly ignoring that we're just the same. And also ignoring that those have a genuine left to swing back to or centre where these are balanced out. |
I honestly wasn't playing anything, it was a simple question to which I was interested to hear your view. It's a shame you immediately went adversarial.
You've given your view, you don't think the countries mentioned are particular on the right side, that's fair enough.
If you look at somewhere like France the Front National are very close to overtaking Macron in the polls. Are we that far to the right in this country?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-far-right-emmanuel-macron
Aren't Labour a genuine left party to swing back to in the UK?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 15:06 - Sep 28 with 2045 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:18 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
hey, we're better than that!
Italy's letting drowning people drown. France keeps flirting with actually electing racists. Alternative for Deutschland have about a third of the vote (innit?! - not sure), The far right in sweeden did well at the last election - same with the dutch. Hungary are almost past the point of no return, poland heading the same way. The austrians nearly had a right righty as their boss... What have we done? We *might* make it harder for European immigrants to move here.
Edit: all from memory - if I have any of the above rant wrong, aplogies! [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 14:22]
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You're cherry-picking extremes here and I think the Italian one is a harsh characterisation of what's going on.
Re: the more developed countries: What's the difference between AfD, the Swedish Democrats, The Freedom Party in Holland the Austrian lot and our own UKIP, EDL, DUP? None really both in size and views. But what's the opposition to that in those countries and counterbalance? Well, they all have socialists and committed social democrats on the left hand side with most centre-left.
Would Corbyn be characterised as far-left in those countries? I don't agree with him as arguably he's moved to the centre-left objectively speaking but he'd certainly not be considered hard left in these countries. They have much stronger representation on the left including governments where we've had almost no representation over the past 20-30 years after Blair moved Labour to Tory-lite.
Whether that's to chase the votes in the middle because the votes on the left don't exist in sufficient numbers doesn't matter. In fact, it actually proves the point that our centre is more to the right. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 15:16 - Sep 28 with 2033 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 15:00 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
I honestly wasn't playing anything, it was a simple question to which I was interested to hear your view. It's a shame you immediately went adversarial.
You've given your view, you don't think the countries mentioned are particular on the right side, that's fair enough.
If you look at somewhere like France the Front National are very close to overtaking Macron in the polls. Are we that far to the right in this country?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-far-right-emmanuel-macron
Aren't Labour a genuine left party to swing back to in the UK?
SB |
I'm adversarial because you tend to be a master of false equivalence.
According to the polls, the Front National is 17% of the vote in a system dominated by coalitions. Do you really think we couldn't find 17% with those views in the UK? Admittedly we'd have to work within our two-party system and try to assemble them from the ranks of the Conservatives, UKIP, EDL and so on (probably quite a few Labour supporters too) but wouldn't be a problem. In fact, I think it'd be a breeze.
But where do you find the people who are social democrats or even further left to match the numbers in France? | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 15:56 - Sep 28 with 1988 views | HennikerBlu |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:38 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
"Northwestern Europe in particular".
I suspected this is what you meant, you tend to centre on the Scandanavian countries and then lump the rest of Europe in with them excluding the UK.
All I said was the rest of Western Europe are fairly far right at the moment so I didn't think your example was fair. I am not sure why you've taken it as some sort of attack.
SB [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 14:39]
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You are correct, the rise of the right and that it is generally seen as more acceptable in parts of Europe is often missed by Brits, all too willing to put or see the UK population in stereotypes.
It is worth looking at Sweden's recent problems, including the ousting of their PM:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/25/swedish-pm-stefan-lofven-losing-co
"However, the Sweden Democrats have been shunned by all other Swedish political parties since entering parliament in 2010 because of their roots in the neo-Nazi movement, a policy Kristersson has pledged to maintain. Löfven’s Social Democrats have ruled out backing an Alliance government."
It's is also worth bearing in mind the Angela Merkal's own Union (CDU) party is part the largest coalition in the EU the EPP, of which Tusk and Juncker are leaders. It is important to bear in mind the EPP is a Christian Democrat/Conservative/Right coalition which also includes:
"The EPP includes major centre-right parties such as the Union of Germany (CDU/CSU), The Republicans of France, Fine Gael of Ireland, Forza Italia of Italy, the People's Party (PP) of Spain and the Social Democratic Party of Portugal, the Civic Platform of Poland but also Fidesz of Hungary, a party with views often described as far-right and xenophobic"
Source: Wikipedia
It is understandable why true socialists, such as Len McCluskey, are not for the EU as whilst they see many excellent policies come from the EU, such as family friendly and supportive of workers rights, they can also see the further centralisation of corporate influence, as demonstrated by the huge and often highly specialised corporate lobbying for influence and shaping of legislation in the EU. Ultimately, the fear is, this has the potential to bypass groups (TU's) outside the EU construct and independent of corporate influence.
If you look at the history of the EPP and Christian Democrats, you will see that they have moved to the (centre) right, so not unique to the UK:
"In the second part of the decade, the EPP’s enlargement efforts have focused on supporting centre-right, reformist national parties in their efforts to consolidate democracy and the rule of law. Parties have been accepted from Moldova, Georgia and Armenia.
The development of the EPP has reflected that of the EU itself; the inclusion of centre-right parties from accession countries in Central and Eastern Europe has been particularly successful. The new members have brought a new dimension to the EPP and consolidated it as the pre-eminent European force of the centre-right."
https://www.epp.eu/about-us/history/
SB- Excuse the lengthy post and additional comments. |  | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 16:24 - Sep 28 with 1965 views | StokieBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 15:16 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
I'm adversarial because you tend to be a master of false equivalence.
According to the polls, the Front National is 17% of the vote in a system dominated by coalitions. Do you really think we couldn't find 17% with those views in the UK? Admittedly we'd have to work within our two-party system and try to assemble them from the ranks of the Conservatives, UKIP, EDL and so on (probably quite a few Labour supporters too) but wouldn't be a problem. In fact, I think it'd be a breeze.
But where do you find the people who are social democrats or even further left to match the numbers in France? |
“I'm adversarial because you tend to be a master of false equivalence. “
In this case or generally? I don’t think there has been any false equivalence in this case but point me in the right direction if you feel there has been.
Going by the 2017 French election the Front National got ~8m votes in the first round (21%) and ~11m in the second round (31%). I wouldn’t call this a fringe element. Now you may well be right that the UK could easily muster as many votes for a right-wing party yet thus far it hasn’t (possibly due to party loyalties which you do highlight). I do think it’s a little hard to justify the UK being much further right than many European populations.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:11 - Sep 28 with 1929 views | GlasgowBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 14:10 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
I don't understand what difference that makes. A government can be right, left or centre.
Are those governments any more further right than the Conservative party that throws a blanket over the centre-right and right and even went further to form an alliance with the DUP? And is even now playing up to the right-wing populism of UKIP and some even more unsavoury groups?
My point is that our "centre" has been skewed already too far to the right to be healthy. We're getting a bit like the US compared to the more genuine centre and balance in European politics. |
I've never quite got the argument that the deal with the DUP is a sign of a government lurching to the right.
Jim Callaghan did the same deal with Enoch Powell and his Ulster Unionists in the 1970's in order to prop up his minority Labour government and both Gordon Brown in 2010 and Ed Miliband in 2015 attempted to stitch the same deal with the DUP that May has now. |  |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:13 - Sep 28 with 1926 views | manchego |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 21:06 - Sep 27 by Binner |
The centre seems to be moving to the left. More younger people (new voters) comfortable with public ownership of utilities, as an example.
(Sorry. Can't engage further. Am at work and break is over). |
trouble is that the young don't know what awful state run industries are like - and strikes. |  | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:29 - Sep 28 with 1910 views | GlasgowBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 15:06 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
You're cherry-picking extremes here and I think the Italian one is a harsh characterisation of what's going on.
Re: the more developed countries: What's the difference between AfD, the Swedish Democrats, The Freedom Party in Holland the Austrian lot and our own UKIP, EDL, DUP? None really both in size and views. But what's the opposition to that in those countries and counterbalance? Well, they all have socialists and committed social democrats on the left hand side with most centre-left.
Would Corbyn be characterised as far-left in those countries? I don't agree with him as arguably he's moved to the centre-left objectively speaking but he'd certainly not be considered hard left in these countries. They have much stronger representation on the left including governments where we've had almost no representation over the past 20-30 years after Blair moved Labour to Tory-lite.
Whether that's to chase the votes in the middle because the votes on the left don't exist in sufficient numbers doesn't matter. In fact, it actually proves the point that our centre is more to the right. |
If you have a Marxist Stalin apologist as your head of communications and a chief of staff who up until a year ago was a lifelong member of the Communist Party of Great Britain then you are going to be characterized as far left in any western country. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:35 - Sep 28 with 1901 views | GlasgowBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 16:24 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
“I'm adversarial because you tend to be a master of false equivalence. “
In this case or generally? I don’t think there has been any false equivalence in this case but point me in the right direction if you feel there has been.
Going by the 2017 French election the Front National got ~8m votes in the first round (21%) and ~11m in the second round (31%). I wouldn’t call this a fringe element. Now you may well be right that the UK could easily muster as many votes for a right-wing party yet thus far it hasn’t (possibly due to party loyalties which you do highlight). I do think it’s a little hard to justify the UK being much further right than many European populations.
SB |
Indeed. Could you imagine the BNP getting over 30% in a UK general election? | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:42 - Sep 28 with 1892 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:11 - Sep 28 by GlasgowBlue |
I've never quite got the argument that the deal with the DUP is a sign of a government lurching to the right.
Jim Callaghan did the same deal with Enoch Powell and his Ulster Unionists in the 1970's in order to prop up his minority Labour government and both Gordon Brown in 2010 and Ed Miliband in 2015 attempted to stitch the same deal with the DUP that May has now. |
It isn't per se. But for example the perception that Italy has a far-right government rather obscures the fact that in order to form a government the main party which is populist anti-status quo irrespective of left and right went in with Legia Nord. That's part and parcel of coalition-style democracies.
Just like the Conservatives went after a majority with the help of an extremist political party. That's the view from the outside but doesn't mean that the Conservatives or the country as a whole have gone more religious for example.
My point is that while the UK may have a big centre and maybe the right isn't as bad as Hungary, there's an almost complete absence of a left-wing in any real terms. Just like the US where it's centre or right to all intents and purposes. For me that's a step backwards and an unhealthy state of affairs for our society and its future. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:46 - Sep 28 with 1884 views | GlasgowBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:42 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
It isn't per se. But for example the perception that Italy has a far-right government rather obscures the fact that in order to form a government the main party which is populist anti-status quo irrespective of left and right went in with Legia Nord. That's part and parcel of coalition-style democracies.
Just like the Conservatives went after a majority with the help of an extremist political party. That's the view from the outside but doesn't mean that the Conservatives or the country as a whole have gone more religious for example.
My point is that while the UK may have a big centre and maybe the right isn't as bad as Hungary, there's an almost complete absence of a left-wing in any real terms. Just like the US where it's centre or right to all intents and purposes. For me that's a step backwards and an unhealthy state of affairs for our society and its future. |
You're right that the left wing has been neutered in the UK for several decades but there is a reason for that. It fails.
And that's why the youth, actually not just the youth but a lot of socially mobile middle class people, have flirted with Corbynism.
They haven't lived through that period of economic failure. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:50 - Sep 28 with 1873 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:35 - Sep 28 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed. Could you imagine the BNP getting over 30% in a UK general election? |
Yay! False equivalence strikes again.
Actually, it's like the BNP, EDL sympathisers, UKIP, a sizeable proportion of Conservative voters and a lot of Labour voters too.
I'll take your 31% and raise you. Especially in a second round of voting. After all, in a similar narrow choice of options we had 52% of the country who just voted Leave and the most common reasons given were the central pillars of Front National's platform — immigration and Euro-scepticism. | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:04 - Sep 28 with 1852 views | giant_stow |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:50 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
Yay! False equivalence strikes again.
Actually, it's like the BNP, EDL sympathisers, UKIP, a sizeable proportion of Conservative voters and a lot of Labour voters too.
I'll take your 31% and raise you. Especially in a second round of voting. After all, in a similar narrow choice of options we had 52% of the country who just voted Leave and the most common reasons given were the central pillars of Front National's platform — immigration and Euro-scepticism. |
oh come on! The EDL and BNP have nothing - you can't just decide x many tories are racists to make your numbers add up! And Euro-scepticism isn't just right wing thing either.
Face it: We're the tolerant, decent, liberal, middle of the road conscience of Europe. Someone's got to do it, especially right now - luckily they have us. . | |
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:13 - Sep 28 with 1838 views | Darth_Koont |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 17:46 - Sep 28 by GlasgowBlue |
You're right that the left wing has been neutered in the UK for several decades but there is a reason for that. It fails.
And that's why the youth, actually not just the youth but a lot of socially mobile middle class people, have flirted with Corbynism.
They haven't lived through that period of economic failure. |
I think the perception of failure is way stronger than reality. Not least because we haven't had a left-wing government or a functioning left-wing opposition for four decades. To project the perception of failure, we're far more likely to hear people talking about the Winter of Discontent (global recession anyone?), how things were in the Soviet Bloc (communism isn't a relevant comparison with social democracy) or how things went crazy in Venezuela (if people think political ideology was at the core of this rather than corruption and incompetence then they're more likely to be ideological nutters themselves).
I can find a gazillion "rejections" of capitalism if anyone is interested. I wouldn't anyway as I think capitalism is an important engine in the world and how we develop. There should also be a similar case for social democracy as helping enshrine many of our best values in society and for ensuring standards that have benefited all of us.
But the left wing has "failed" nevertheless in the UK. So why hasn't the left wing been neutered in other countries that are keeping pace with us economically and even outperforming us not least in many of our social metrics? Elsewhere, they've even been in government on a genuine left-wing platform for a lot of the past 50 years. [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 18:27]
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| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:19 - Sep 28 with 1832 views | Clapham_Junction |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 13:41 - Sep 28 by StokieBlue |
Out of interest, how do you square the first paragraph with right-leaning parties being in power in Italy, Spain and ahead in the polls in France?
SB |
Spain is currently governed by the Socialists.
I'd also put the Italian government down as populists rather than right/left wing on an economic basis. Some of the stuff they're doing is quite left wing (although combined with tax cuts, which is just a George Osborne level of bonkers).
According to what's on Wikipedia (not a terribly good sample admittedly), Macron currently leads opinion polls for the next French election. However, I was of the opinion that him being elected would eventually be a huge boost to the far right as his economic policies would just continue or worsen the malaise that leads people to vote for the FN.
It was very sad to see the Swedish conservative alliance voting with the Swedish Democrats to try and bring down the Social Democratic government (which (just) emerged as the largest bloc in parliament in the recent elections). |  | | |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:20 - Sep 28 with 1828 views | GlasgowBlue |
| If you want the softest possible Brexit, vote Labour.... on 18:13 - Sep 28 by Darth_Koont |
I think the perception of failure is way stronger than reality. Not least because we haven't had a left-wing government or a functioning left-wing opposition for four decades. To project the perception of failure, we're far more likely to hear people talking about the Winter of Discontent (global recession anyone?), how things were in the Soviet Bloc (communism isn't a relevant comparison with social democracy) or how things went crazy in Venezuela (if people think political ideology was at the core of this rather than corruption and incompetence then they're more likely to be ideological nutters themselves).
I can find a gazillion "rejections" of capitalism if anyone is interested. I wouldn't anyway as I think capitalism is an important engine in the world and how we develop. There should also be a similar case for social democracy as helping enshrine many of our best values in society and for ensuring standards that have benefited all of us.
But the left wing has "failed" nevertheless in the UK. So why hasn't the left wing been neutered in other countries that are keeping pace with us economically and even outperforming us not least in many of our social metrics? Elsewhere, they've even been in government on a genuine left-wing platform for a lot of the past 50 years. [Post edited 28 Sep 2018 18:27]
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I shouldn't have jumped in this thread as I was in the car killing time on the way back from a funeral and have to go out again. Don't want you to think I'm being ignorant by not answering the points you raised, which I will when I'm free. | |
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