| The VAR farce continues 21:35 - Jun 17 with 5935 views | Bent_double |
Penalty to France (it wasn't)
France miss penalty.
Give France a second chance as keeper moved .000001 second before ball was kicked. |  |
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| The VAR farce continues on 05:22 - Jun 18 with 2255 views | blueconscience |
| The VAR farce continues on 21:44 - Jun 17 by N2_Blue |
Football is dead.
If both those decisions had been made in men’s World Cup if would be talked about for weeks. The retake decision is probably the most ridiculous decision I’ve ever seen. I wouldn’t agree with it even if the keeper saved it, but to book her and order a retake for coming off her line when she didn’t even save it is just a total joke.
VAR is killing football in so many ways. |
Soon there will be no cheering when the goal is scored, only a few minutes later when it is confirmed! |  |
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| The VAR farce continues on 07:10 - Jun 18 with 2224 views | christiand |
| The VAR farce continues on 22:25 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
The penalty decision is subjective, not objective, so a subjective decision is being replaced by a delayed subjective decision.
The keeper off the line is an objective decision, but on the re-take the France number six has a foot in the penalty area. So that was an incorrect decision that those in charge of VAR chose to ignore, probably to preserve the sanity of all involved. |
Yes, any decision is subjective regarding issues on the pitch whether that is done by VAR or the referee on the pitch officiating the game, that's not going to change. Don't really understand your point on this ? The important thing is getting the decision right, although there are clearly teething issues with VAR the penalty decision last night was the correct one. Think ahead to next season, last league game we need the win against Sunderland at home to seal promotion, it's 1-1 going into injury time and Jackson gets clipped from behind in the penalty area (like the French striker last night). You wouldn't be expecting a penalty? We won't even have the luxury of VAR in League One, but I feel pretty confident they'd be uproar on this forum if replays showed that was a foul and that decision ultimately cost us promotion. |  |
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| The VAR farce continues on 07:31 - Jun 18 with 2214 views | Ftnfwest |
| The VAR farce continues on 22:08 - Jun 17 by christiand |
The game has too much money at stake for incorrect decisions by human error. VAR is the way forward, but still a few teething issues. |
VAR is controlled by humans. It’s just another little bloke watching a tv replay to ‘help’ the ref. It’s not yet some sort of IT wizardry. |  | | |
| The VAR farce continues on 07:53 - Jun 18 with 2203 views | christiand |
| The VAR farce continues on 07:31 - Jun 18 by Ftnfwest |
VAR is controlled by humans. It’s just another little bloke watching a tv replay to ‘help’ the ref. It’s not yet some sort of IT wizardry. |
Yes, appreciate that but it's still a tool to help assist the referee officiate the game. Both decisions were correct last night, but certainly agree the 'encroachment' of players needs to be addressed, if we are to have that consistency. VAR isn't going to stop subjective decisions, but it will certainly identify missed incidents which can have an influence on the game......well except encroachment at penalties it seems! Although some don't like it because it's new, it's going to take time for all concerned to adjust to the change. [Post edited 18 Jun 2019 7:54]
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| The VAR farce continues on 08:27 - Jun 18 with 2186 views | BigManBlue |
| The VAR farce continues on 21:52 - Jun 17 by Trequartista |
It is the inconsistency of VAR that cannot ever be rectified unless the entire game is controlled by instant computer decisions. How can you penalise a keeper stepping off a line when encroachment of players is ignored? How can you rule an offside is correct by a millimetre if a substitute warming up has a foot on the pitch at the same time and this is ignored? |
This. You can't hyper-analyse some aspects of the game and let other go.
If it's going down the route of absolute accuracy, you need to start looking at goals from corners being disallowed because the ball is half a mm over the line, goals from throw ins where the taker moved up 10 yards, and, well... everything. |  |
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| The VAR farce continues on 08:51 - Jun 18 with 2180 views | Radlett_blue |
| The VAR farce continues on 08:27 - Jun 18 by BigManBlue |
This. You can't hyper-analyse some aspects of the game and let other go.
If it's going down the route of absolute accuracy, you need to start looking at goals from corners being disallowed because the ball is half a mm over the line, goals from throw ins where the taker moved up 10 yards, and, well... everything. |
Rather like cricket, when no-balls are routinely ignored by the umpires (not necessarily their fault) until a wicket falls and then it's over-ruled because of a marginal no-ball. |  |
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| The VAR farce continues on 08:57 - Jun 18 with 2178 views | BigManBlue |
| The VAR farce continues on 08:51 - Jun 18 by Radlett_blue |
Rather like cricket, when no-balls are routinely ignored by the umpires (not necessarily their fault) until a wicket falls and then it's over-ruled because of a marginal no-ball. |
Exactly. I'm a big fan of rugby league too, the amount of times the video referee rules out a try for obstruction that would be ignored if there was no score is crazy as well (slightly different as it's a stupid rule but this isn't the place for that!).
I think that it's even worse in football though because of the 360 degree directionality of the play and near constant movement from all players. It's an impossible number of minutiae to rule on simultaneously, so where do we draw the line with what gets policed according to the letter and what's allowed to be overlooked? I fear it could take a long time and a lot of contentious big-game decisions to get there, knowing who governs these things. [Post edited 18 Jun 2019 8:59]
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| The VAR farce continues on 09:23 - Jun 18 with 2159 views | Radlett_blue |
| The VAR farce continues on 08:57 - Jun 18 by BigManBlue |
Exactly. I'm a big fan of rugby league too, the amount of times the video referee rules out a try for obstruction that would be ignored if there was no score is crazy as well (slightly different as it's a stupid rule but this isn't the place for that!).
I think that it's even worse in football though because of the 360 degree directionality of the play and near constant movement from all players. It's an impossible number of minutiae to rule on simultaneously, so where do we draw the line with what gets policed according to the letter and what's allowed to be overlooked? I fear it could take a long time and a lot of contentious big-game decisions to get there, knowing who governs these things. [Post edited 18 Jun 2019 8:59]
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It's not quite as bad as Rugby Union, where the complexity of the laws & their interpretation is huge. Remember the massive controversy over the game-deciding decision in the Scotland v Australia World Cup match in 2005, which the ref wasn't allowed to send to VAR? I bet it would now go to VAR & so will most decisions. While VAR will quickly correct a few blatant errors, I think it's well on the way to ruining the game as a spectacle. Sport is meant to be entertainment.
And yes, if Town were denied promotion by a last minute, incorrect decision I'd be incensed but I think we need to see the bigger picture as far as the game is concerned. | |
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| The VAR farce continues on 09:41 - Jun 18 with 2139 views | BigManBlue |
| The VAR farce continues on 09:23 - Jun 18 by Radlett_blue |
It's not quite as bad as Rugby Union, where the complexity of the laws & their interpretation is huge. Remember the massive controversy over the game-deciding decision in the Scotland v Australia World Cup match in 2005, which the ref wasn't allowed to send to VAR? I bet it would now go to VAR & so will most decisions. While VAR will quickly correct a few blatant errors, I think it's well on the way to ruining the game as a spectacle. Sport is meant to be entertainment.
And yes, if Town were denied promotion by a last minute, incorrect decision I'd be incensed but I think we need to see the bigger picture as far as the game is concerned. |
Ah yes, I used to quite like union but these day it seems (at international level anyway - not qualified to comment on the club game) that the sport has turned into a arcane game of logic in which, after lots of stopping and starting and falling over, one side is eventually, for some reason, given a chance to kick a penalty. I'd hate football to go down the same route, being decided by fractional technical decisions at set-pieces, but the last world cup made it look as if that could be the way we're heading.
As with you, I much prefer a game where we simply accept human error. | |
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| The VAR farce continues on 10:10 - Jun 18 with 2133 views | Ftnfwest |
| The VAR farce continues on 07:53 - Jun 18 by christiand |
Yes, appreciate that but it's still a tool to help assist the referee officiate the game. Both decisions were correct last night, but certainly agree the 'encroachment' of players needs to be addressed, if we are to have that consistency. VAR isn't going to stop subjective decisions, but it will certainly identify missed incidents which can have an influence on the game......well except encroachment at penalties it seems! Although some don't like it because it's new, it's going to take time for all concerned to adjust to the change. [Post edited 18 Jun 2019 7:54]
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I must admit i haven't watched any of the women's games so don't know about any of these decisions being debated but i think there is a bit of a misconception generally that VAR is some sort of ultimately always correct piece of IT.
It isn't, its literally video assisting review by another official. The decision for the offside in Englands game v Netherlands for instance was so close and as it involved 2 moving objects, just drawing a line across the pitch to indicate that they think Lingard's toenail was offside was not unquestionably 100% correct and i think they should follow the cricket line where you effectively make it a ref's (or umpires) call. This still gives the on field officials some sort of retained authority.
The technology is fine for situations where you have one static 'object' ie. the goal line for over the line goal/no goal decisions but otherwise it is still fallible. | | | |
| The VAR farce continues on 12:47 - Jun 18 with 2109 views | christiand |
| The VAR farce continues on 10:10 - Jun 18 by Ftnfwest |
I must admit i haven't watched any of the women's games so don't know about any of these decisions being debated but i think there is a bit of a misconception generally that VAR is some sort of ultimately always correct piece of IT.
It isn't, its literally video assisting review by another official. The decision for the offside in Englands game v Netherlands for instance was so close and as it involved 2 moving objects, just drawing a line across the pitch to indicate that they think Lingard's toenail was offside was not unquestionably 100% correct and i think they should follow the cricket line where you effectively make it a ref's (or umpires) call. This still gives the on field officials some sort of retained authority.
The technology is fine for situations where you have one static 'object' ie. the goal line for over the line goal/no goal decisions but otherwise it is still fallible. |
When the defender has kicked the striker from behind (intentionally or not) then that's pretty clear. I agree to what you're suggesting about a static object though Ftnfwest, but look how many already have debated an offside decision through VAR? I still think it's the way forward, there's too much to lose for club's financially just relying on the decision of a referee who has a split second to make a call. | |
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| The VAR farce continues on 13:06 - Jun 18 with 2096 views | SouthBucksBlue |
I may be wrong and/or the criteria may have been changed but wasn't VAR intended only to rectify a clear and obvious mistake that ought to have been seen by the on pitch/pitch-side officials? | | | |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:07 - Jun 18 with 2096 views | sundaze |
| The VAR farce continues on 07:10 - Jun 18 by christiand |
Yes, any decision is subjective regarding issues on the pitch whether that is done by VAR or the referee on the pitch officiating the game, that's not going to change. Don't really understand your point on this ? The important thing is getting the decision right, although there are clearly teething issues with VAR the penalty decision last night was the correct one. Think ahead to next season, last league game we need the win against Sunderland at home to seal promotion, it's 1-1 going into injury time and Jackson gets clipped from behind in the penalty area (like the French striker last night). You wouldn't be expecting a penalty? We won't even have the luxury of VAR in League One, but I feel pretty confident they'd be uproar on this forum if replays showed that was a foul and that decision ultimately cost us promotion. |
You can swing that round and imagine the uproar if it was Town in the position of Nigeria. If it was our goalkeeper being penalised after the opposition player missed a penalty, despite the goalkeeper doing nothing to make the penalty taker miss the goal.
If you watch the French players last night, not one of them appealed for a retake and a number of them seemed quite bemused by the decision.
VAR should be used for obvious mistakes that are missed and would change the game, the penalty retake and subsequent yellow card for the goalkeeper was a great example of how VAR is going to take a human game and turn it into a computer game. |  | | |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:09 - Jun 18 with 2093 views | J4ck22 |
Surely the problem isn't VAR, so much as the inconsistency with the way that referees interpret the rules? VAR just allows people to watch a replay. If officials are still getting it wrong then maybe the rules need to be firmly re-established for all referees to make sure there is some sort of consistency. | | | |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:33 - Jun 18 with 2075 views | christiand |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:07 - Jun 18 by sundaze |
You can swing that round and imagine the uproar if it was Town in the position of Nigeria. If it was our goalkeeper being penalised after the opposition player missed a penalty, despite the goalkeeper doing nothing to make the penalty taker miss the goal.
If you watch the French players last night, not one of them appealed for a retake and a number of them seemed quite bemused by the decision.
VAR should be used for obvious mistakes that are missed and would change the game, the penalty retake and subsequent yellow card for the goalkeeper was a great example of how VAR is going to take a human game and turn it into a computer game. |
But the rules are the keeper needs at least one foot on the line, that’s the rule now. Therefore, it was the correct decision. You could also turn it round if Ipswich had the penalty and the keeper was off their line, you wouldn’t expect a retake? Of course you would, it works both ways. The encroachment of players is a different story though, that’s where it lacks inconsistency. | |
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| The VAR farce continues on 13:43 - Jun 18 with 2067 views | Bent_double |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:33 - Jun 18 by christiand |
But the rules are the keeper needs at least one foot on the line, that’s the rule now. Therefore, it was the correct decision. You could also turn it round if Ipswich had the penalty and the keeper was off their line, you wouldn’t expect a retake? Of course you would, it works both ways. The encroachment of players is a different story though, that’s where it lacks inconsistency. |
"You could also turn it round if Ipswich had the penalty and the keeper was off their line, you wouldn’t expect a retake? Of course you would"
I wouldn't. Also, in that example, the player actually missed the penalty, ie the ball went wide of the goal, you're not telling me that was because the 'keeper moved a split second before she hit the ball. If the 'keeper had saved it, there's an argument for it to be re-taken, but not in this case, imo. | |
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| The VAR farce continues on 13:59 - Jun 18 with 2061 views | christiand |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:43 - Jun 18 by Bent_double |
"You could also turn it round if Ipswich had the penalty and the keeper was off their line, you wouldn’t expect a retake? Of course you would"
I wouldn't. Also, in that example, the player actually missed the penalty, ie the ball went wide of the goal, you're not telling me that was because the 'keeper moved a split second before she hit the ball. If the 'keeper had saved it, there's an argument for it to be re-taken, but not in this case, imo. |
It might not sit comfortably, but that’s the current rule. If for example that cost us promotion next season or something similar I’d be bloody annoyed. However, certainly with regards to your last point, I think it’s a very valid one that would make more sense in the context of that situation last night. [Post edited 18 Jun 2019 14:00]
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| The VAR farce continues on 15:04 - Jun 18 with 2041 views | sundaze |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:33 - Jun 18 by christiand |
But the rules are the keeper needs at least one foot on the line, that’s the rule now. Therefore, it was the correct decision. You could also turn it round if Ipswich had the penalty and the keeper was off their line, you wouldn’t expect a retake? Of course you would, it works both ways. The encroachment of players is a different story though, that’s where it lacks inconsistency. |
I would expect a retake if the keeper saved the penalty, I don't believe anyone last night, on either team, expected a retake and certainly not a yellow card.
There still needs to be common sense, if the keeper had rushed out from the line and made a save. then obviously it deserves a yellow card, same as a deliberate foul stopping an opponent gaining an advantage elsewhere on the pitch.
But common sense tells us that she didn't gain an advantage and I would say it was extremely doubtful whether she even realised that she had left the line before the ball was struck. | | | |
| The VAR farce continues on 15:11 - Jun 18 with 2035 views | christiand |
| The VAR farce continues on 15:04 - Jun 18 by sundaze |
I would expect a retake if the keeper saved the penalty, I don't believe anyone last night, on either team, expected a retake and certainly not a yellow card.
There still needs to be common sense, if the keeper had rushed out from the line and made a save. then obviously it deserves a yellow card, same as a deliberate foul stopping an opponent gaining an advantage elsewhere on the pitch.
But common sense tells us that she didn't gain an advantage and I would say it was extremely doubtful whether she even realised that she had left the line before the ball was struck. |
Keepers might need to start behind the line in order to counter this new rule. I’m sure club coaches, up and down the land, are already getting their thinking caps on. | |
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| The VAR farce continues on 16:39 - Jun 18 with 1999 views | Radlett_blue |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:09 - Jun 18 by J4ck22 |
Surely the problem isn't VAR, so much as the inconsistency with the way that referees interpret the rules? VAR just allows people to watch a replay. If officials are still getting it wrong then maybe the rules need to be firmly re-established for all referees to make sure there is some sort of consistency. |
The nature of football as a flowing game with some physical contact means that refereeing decisions will always be subject to interpretation rather than exactitude. That's the whole problem with introducing VAR and why it will never benefit the overall game. | |
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| The VAR farce continues on 17:27 - Jun 18 with 1981 views | Bent_double |
| The VAR farce continues on 13:59 - Jun 18 by christiand |
It might not sit comfortably, but that’s the current rule. If for example that cost us promotion next season or something similar I’d be bloody annoyed. However, certainly with regards to your last point, I think it’s a very valid one that would make more sense in the context of that situation last night. [Post edited 18 Jun 2019 14:00]
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You're right, I'm just annoyed that we seem to have gone too far the other way now - some of the decisions during this tournament have just been laughable and have ruined the game for me.
I know there are those who say give it time, it will improve, and in a few years we'll all wonder how we ever did without it, but at the moment I'd rather do without it and revert to what we've had for the last 50+ years - fans and pundits over-analysing and moaning after the game about the penalty that never was, or the clear offside that the linesperson never gave. | |
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| The VAR farce continues on 20:34 - Jun 18 with 1957 views | sundaze |
| The VAR farce continues on 16:39 - Jun 18 by Radlett_blue |
The nature of football as a flowing game with some physical contact means that refereeing decisions will always be subject to interpretation rather than exactitude. That's the whole problem with introducing VAR and why it will never benefit the overall game. |
Let me know if you are watching the England u21 match v France. I would like to know your thoughts on Henderson's penalty save. | | | |
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