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Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 14:55 - Jun 26 by sparks
On what do you base that?
The suggestion is that he is utterly meticulous in training- constantly adapting and adjusting routines, lots of research and creativity. Heavily involved personally in everything, rather than delegating day to day training. I struggle to see the comparison at all- save for the Bournemouth connection.
[Post edited 26 Jun 2020 14:56]
Bloody hell sparks, are overrated Eddie’s agent?
I base it on the teams he’s put together, the style of football they play, the agents he’s dealt with, the signings he’s made and people’s propensity to over rate them both somewhat. Both have also been described as very good man managers and not so great tacticians.
I’m not talking about Harry’s extra curricular activity, I’m saying purely from a footballing and management standpoint there are quite a few similarities between the two.
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Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 08:08 - Jun 29 with 952 views
I didn’t particularly like them but can’t blame them for it, the dark arts are essential in football and FFP was always something of a joke
The narrative around them really grated though, and Bully seems to have completely whitewashed the fact he was on here lauding them at the time insisting they weren’t in breach of the rules, along with some of their other fans
It doesn’t really matter anyway, they’ll come down this year and almost certainly won’t go back up for a long time
I wonder if they'd have breached FFP without having been promoted though as clear paid a huge amount of promotion bonuses.
Their wage bill took a huge jump from 13/14-14/15 without any big name signings or real new contracts - bar Jones who was a late season loanee to push them over the line, which worked.
Their net transfer spend over those 2 seasons was around £3m, their wage bill was £17m, big for a club of their size but very much mid table in the Championship.
Just because teams spend more than us it doesn't make them big spenders, their promotion was fairly miraculous when you compare it to the league, as ours would have been
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 08:08 - Jun 29 by itfcjoe
I wonder if they'd have breached FFP without having been promoted though as clear paid a huge amount of promotion bonuses.
Their wage bill took a huge jump from 13/14-14/15 without any big name signings or real new contracts - bar Jones who was a late season loanee to push them over the line, which worked.
Their net transfer spend over those 2 seasons was around £3m, their wage bill was £17m, big for a club of their size but very much mid table in the Championship.
Just because teams spend more than us it doesn't make them big spenders, their promotion was fairly miraculous when you compare it to the league, as ours would have been
The link in your post shows them having the 6th highest transfer spend and a wage/turnover ratio of 172% - even allowing for promotion bonuses that is insane
As for signings they had been promoted from League One in 2012/13 having spent significant sums on Matt Ritchie, Lewis Grabban and Ryan Fraser, not to mention several six figure signings the season before (including Matt Tubbs at £800k, a very sizeable amount in L1). Having been promoted they spent £3m on Tokelo Rantie, Andrew Surman and Callum Wilson arrived the following Summer plus reasonably expensive free transfers like Dan Gosling. And that’s before you factor in loans like Boruc and Jones which would have been sizeable
Fairytale
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
The link in your post shows them having the 6th highest transfer spend and a wage/turnover ratio of 172% - even allowing for promotion bonuses that is insane
As for signings they had been promoted from League One in 2012/13 having spent significant sums on Matt Ritchie, Lewis Grabban and Ryan Fraser, not to mention several six figure signings the season before (including Matt Tubbs at £800k, a very sizeable amount in L1). Having been promoted they spent £3m on Tokelo Rantie, Andrew Surman and Callum Wilson arrived the following Summer plus reasonably expensive free transfers like Dan Gosling. And that’s before you factor in loans like Boruc and Jones which would have been sizeable
Fairytale
They spent £1.4m in 12/13 and recouped £860k, in 13/14 there is the Rantie transdfer for £3.6m, and then in 14/15 spent £4.3 and recieved £3.3m
That Rantie transfer is a massive outlier, and seems a strange one with how his career actually went - but other than that there isn't really much spending bar fees recouped
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 09:18 - Jun 29 by itfcjoe
They spent £1.4m in 12/13 and recouped £860k, in 13/14 there is the Rantie transdfer for £3.6m, and then in 14/15 spent £4.3 and recieved £3.3m
That Rantie transfer is a massive outlier, and seems a strange one with how his career actually went - but other than that there isn't really much spending bar fees recouped
They were eventually fined in the Premiership, not that it really mattered by then
How have Derby continued to get away with it?
Alcohol is the answer but I can't remember the question!
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 09:18 - Jun 29 by itfcjoe
They spent £1.4m in 12/13 and recouped £860k, in 13/14 there is the Rantie transdfer for £3.6m, and then in 14/15 spent £4.3 and recieved £3.3m
That Rantie transfer is a massive outlier, and seems a strange one with how his career actually went - but other than that there isn't really much spending bar fees recouped
Looking at Transfermarkt (where I believe your fees are from), they had the highest net spend in League One in 2012/13, second highest in the Championship in 13/14 and then 7th highest in 2014/15
You seem to be comparing spending levels to what clubs are spending now rather than what they were doing at the time
Fairytale
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Looking at Transfermarkt (where I believe your fees are from), they had the highest net spend in League One in 2012/13, second highest in the Championship in 13/14 and then 7th highest in 2014/15
You seem to be comparing spending levels to what clubs are spending now rather than what they were doing at the time
Fairytale
Yes, a team coming from 4th tier to the PL is a fairytale.
They spent a bit on the way up there, as a lot of club to ge tout of 3rd tier but they didn't buy their way out of the Championship
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 10:05 - Jun 29 by itfcjoe
Yes, a team coming from 4th tier to the PL is a fairytale.
They spent a bit on the way up there, as a lot of club to ge tout of 3rd tier but they didn't buy their way out of the Championship
Getting promoted by spending the most in the division and then nearly the most in the next one isn’t a fairytale, it’s suddenly getting lots of investment and capitalising on it
I don’t really know what else to say, your own sources show them spending considerable amounts in comparison to the rest of the division and having a wage bill nearly double their turnover when they went up. If you still don’t think that equates to them buying their way up the table then it’s fairly apparent you’ve already made your mind up and facts be damned
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Getting promoted by spending the most in the division and then nearly the most in the next one isn’t a fairytale, it’s suddenly getting lots of investment and capitalising on it
I don’t really know what else to say, your own sources show them spending considerable amounts in comparison to the rest of the division and having a wage bill nearly double their turnover when they went up. If you still don’t think that equates to them buying their way up the table then it’s fairly apparent you’ve already made your mind up and facts be damned
This is essentially my stance, it's fine that they took that route but to brand it as some kind of miraculous fairy tale where plucky little old Bournemouth beat the odds is disingenuous at best.
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Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 10:22 - Jun 29 with 790 views
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 10:17 - Jun 29 by Libero
This is essentially my stance, it's fine that they took that route but to brand it as some kind of miraculous fairy tale where plucky little old Bournemouth beat the odds is disingenuous at best.
Well quite, and indeed credit to them for spending it well - with the exception of Rantie most of those players they spend decent sums on became core parts of the side that went up (the less said about their spending in the PL the better mind!)
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 10:17 - Jun 29 by Libero
This is essentially my stance, it's fine that they took that route but to brand it as some kind of miraculous fairy tale where plucky little old Bournemouth beat the odds is disingenuous at best.
It started before the investment and from a desperate position. It's been done playing good attacking football.
No one has said money wasn't spent. Many clubs spend money without getting results.
This whole plucky Bournemouth thing is a strawman used to beat them with. I don't see them putting it out there...
None of this explains the bitter vitriol from a group of town fans towards another club who we would like to emulate. It's just envy. How much did Keane spend beyond our means? What is the difference? Priskin, Edward, Leadbitter, Martin...
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 10:30 - Jun 29 by sparks
It started before the investment and from a desperate position. It's been done playing good attacking football.
No one has said money wasn't spent. Many clubs spend money without getting results.
This whole plucky Bournemouth thing is a strawman used to beat them with. I don't see them putting it out there...
None of this explains the bitter vitriol from a group of town fans towards another club who we would like to emulate. It's just envy. How much did Keane spend beyond our means? What is the difference? Priskin, Edward, Leadbitter, Martin...
You're very defensive over them, it's cute really.
I don't agree with your assertion that the club themselves don't perpetuate this narrative, when they came up every interview they did was around Steve Fletcher keeping the club in the football league with the last kick of the game five years ago, etc.
It's clearly a narrative that if the club haven't constructed themselves they've heavily leaned into.
You're being hyperbolic, I don't think there's any vitriol, some just take exception to the narrative, while others find their levels of gamesmanship off putting. Personally I've no problem with the latter.
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Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 11:34 - Jun 29 with 724 views
Getting promoted by spending the most in the division and then nearly the most in the next one isn’t a fairytale, it’s suddenly getting lots of investment and capitalising on it
I don’t really know what else to say, your own sources show them spending considerable amounts in comparison to the rest of the division and having a wage bill nearly double their turnover when they went up. If you still don’t think that equates to them buying their way up the table then it’s fairly apparent you’ve already made your mind up and facts be damned
Avoiding releagtion whilst in financial strife, staying int he football league despite a 17 point deduction, good football, attracting a small level of investment by football standards and then using that to make astute signings to get through the leagues at a decent pace is a fairytale.
I think the last part of your final sentence applies to you.
Did Huddersfield buy their way up with a load of rag tag Germans - Wage to turnover of 140% when they went up, well over 100% for the 5 years proceeding that?
There is a cost of doing business in the Championship, even well run and poor Ipswich lose £6m a season in normal cicumstances.
Their achievement from the 17 point deduction to oplaying PL football a few years later without big investment is huge
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 11:34 - Jun 29 by itfcjoe
Avoiding releagtion whilst in financial strife, staying int he football league despite a 17 point deduction, good football, attracting a small level of investment by football standards and then using that to make astute signings to get through the leagues at a decent pace is a fairytale.
I think the last part of your final sentence applies to you.
Did Huddersfield buy their way up with a load of rag tag Germans - Wage to turnover of 140% when they went up, well over 100% for the 5 years proceeding that?
There is a cost of doing business in the Championship, even well run and poor Ipswich lose £6m a season in normal cicumstances.
Their achievement from the 17 point deduction to oplaying PL football a few years later without big investment is huge
The bit where they avoided relegation from League Two was fantastic however no one is disputing that part. The bit that isn’t a fairytale is where a Russian billionaire took over in 2011 in a season in which they finished 11th in League One (5 places below the season before), then spent the most money in the league to get promoted and nearly the most in the league above for consecutive seasons to get promoted again
No idea why you are using Huddersfield as an example, they were promoted 2 seasons after Bournemouth at a time where fees in the Championship had gone through the roof. And their net spend in the two seasons prior to getting promoted was a profit of £6m. Bizarre comparison
You cite Ipswich losing £6m a season...Bournemouth lost £15.3m in 2012/13 (in League One!), £10.3m in 2013/14 and £38.3m when they were promoted in 2014/15
The bit where they avoided relegation from League Two was fantastic however no one is disputing that part. The bit that isn’t a fairytale is where a Russian billionaire took over in 2011 in a season in which they finished 11th in League One (5 places below the season before), then spent the most money in the league to get promoted and nearly the most in the league above for consecutive seasons to get promoted again
No idea why you are using Huddersfield as an example, they were promoted 2 seasons after Bournemouth at a time where fees in the Championship had gone through the roof. And their net spend in the two seasons prior to getting promoted was a profit of £6m. Bizarre comparison
You cite Ipswich losing £6m a season...Bournemouth lost £15.3m in 2012/13 (in League One!), £10.3m in 2013/14 and £38.3m when they were promoted in 2014/15
"nearly the most in the league above for consecutive seasons"
When there are clubs with double the wage bill and more? Like when Liverpool fans are talking about net spend over the last few years as how their achievement is out the way
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 11:56 - Jun 29 by itfcjoe
"nearly the most in the league above for consecutive seasons"
When there are clubs with double the wage bill and more? Like when Liverpool fans are talking about net spend over the last few years as how their achievement is out the way
Your own Swissramble link shows that Bournemouth had:
- Top 6 net transfer spend in the division for the promotion season and season before - Top 8 loss for the season before they were promoted, with the promotion season seeing them lose 3 times as much as in that season - 2nd highest wage bill to turnover for the season before promotion (I was actually mistaken before in thinking the 172% included promotion bonuses, it doesn’t, presumably the promotion season is miles higher) - Top half wage bill for the season before promotion, before adding Wilson, Surman, Stanislas, Gosling, Boruc and Jones to the squad
No idea what the Liverpool point is, I can’t make sense of it
EDIT: Just found the Swissramble article covering Bournemouth’s promotion season. Biggest losses in the Championship and 5th highest wage bill. Wages/turnover ratio of 237%
[Post edited 29 Jun 2020 12:09]
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 10:39 - Jun 29 by Libero
You're very defensive over them, it's cute really.
I don't agree with your assertion that the club themselves don't perpetuate this narrative, when they came up every interview they did was around Steve Fletcher keeping the club in the football league with the last kick of the game five years ago, etc.
It's clearly a narrative that if the club haven't constructed themselves they've heavily leaned into.
You're being hyperbolic, I don't think there's any vitriol, some just take exception to the narrative, while others find their levels of gamesmanship off putting. Personally I've no problem with the latter.
The Fletcher thing was clearly a valid angle which everyone from the media asked about. Massive club man and cult hero- and the story is remarkable. Hardly something to criticise.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
Your own Swissramble link shows that Bournemouth had:
- Top 6 net transfer spend in the division for the promotion season and season before - Top 8 loss for the season before they were promoted, with the promotion season seeing them lose 3 times as much as in that season - 2nd highest wage bill to turnover for the season before promotion (I was actually mistaken before in thinking the 172% included promotion bonuses, it doesn’t, presumably the promotion season is miles higher) - Top half wage bill for the season before promotion, before adding Wilson, Surman, Stanislas, Gosling, Boruc and Jones to the squad
No idea what the Liverpool point is, I can’t make sense of it
EDIT: Just found the Swissramble article covering Bournemouth’s promotion season. Biggest losses in the Championship and 5th highest wage bill. Wages/turnover ratio of 237%
[Post edited 29 Jun 2020 12:09]
- Top 6 net transfer spend £3m over 2 seasons
- Top 8 loss for the season before they were promoted 4 clubs lost £20m+, with a further 1 losing £40m+ 13 clubs including Bournemouth lost between £6m and £12m
- 2nd highest wage bill to turnover for the season before promotion But the 12th highest wage bill - miles less than the big sides. Taht Bournemouth, Ipswich, Brentford were able to compete with the big boys is testament to good management - not investment for me
And the 5th highest wage bill - presumable including the promotion bonuses?
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 12:16 - Jun 29 by sparks
The Fletcher thing was clearly a valid angle which everyone from the media asked about. Massive club man and cult hero- and the story is remarkable. Hardly something to criticise.
Yes, the angle was interesting but it was not representative of the Bournemouth of 2011 and beyond.
Bournemouth either perpetuated or leaned heavily into the angle in an attempt to manipulate the narrative and create a brand of sorts. It's also a kind of sports washing in my opinion, taking an incredible and pure feat of football with a feel good vibe and using it to paint over the fact that your club is now receiving a significant amount of investment. It disingenuous to link the two in the manner in which they have been linked.
As I say, all power to them. I actually think they've managed their money relatively well, I just do not agree with the manner in which they continue to try and align themselves with being a tiny, plucky underdog. If Ipswich did what they are doing I'd be pleased, I'd just like to think that we would do it without trading on an element of our past that is no longer relevant to the current day.
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Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 12:52 - Jun 29 with 604 views
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 12:28 - Jun 29 by itfcjoe
- Top 6 net transfer spend £3m over 2 seasons
- Top 8 loss for the season before they were promoted 4 clubs lost £20m+, with a further 1 losing £40m+ 13 clubs including Bournemouth lost between £6m and £12m
- 2nd highest wage bill to turnover for the season before promotion But the 12th highest wage bill - miles less than the big sides. Taht Bournemouth, Ipswich, Brentford were able to compete with the big boys is testament to good management - not investment for me
And the 5th highest wage bill - presumable including the promotion bonuses?
Net transfer spend - they literally spent more than most the division, what those actual amounts are is irrelevant (it was more than £3m net spend btw but that’s beside the point)
Loss - Bournemouth lost the most money in the division the year they went up, by some distance (£12m more than the next largest in Fulham)
Wages - it was 11th in 2013/14 and if you remove QPR (whose were a basket case with a wage bill twice that of the division) their were only a handful of clubs that far ahead of them. And whilst bonuses will be included the expensive signings made (especially Jones) will also be a significant factor, they were spending very good money clearly
The Swissramble piece on them quite literally notes that ‘Since then Demin has bank-rolled Bournemouth’s climb through the divisions’. But yes, other than a Russian bankrolling losses of £60m+, spending more than most of the division and paying large wages it was nothing to do with money
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Here’s one for all the Bournemouth fan boys, first half of the podcast all about their fianaces, etc. Second half is about on the pitch, typically in-depth insight from Tifo/The Athletic.
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Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 18:30 - Jul 1 with 426 views
They are currently in the relegation mire!! 2 nil down at home to Newcastle.... Sky sports love child Eddie Howe is a fraud.... Sky have certainly created a narrative for Bournemouth and always trot out the injuries excuse... Burnley and even the budgies have had just as many injuries as Bournemouth, yet you never hear about that as they are managed by an unfashionable, but more successful manager in Dyche and a crazy German.
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Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 18:46 - Jul 1 with 419 views
Poor show from Ryan Fraser on 18:30 - Jul 1 by Jimmy86
They are currently in the relegation mire!! 2 nil down at home to Newcastle.... Sky sports love child Eddie Howe is a fraud.... Sky have certainly created a narrative for Bournemouth and always trot out the injuries excuse... Burnley and even the budgies have had just as many injuries as Bournemouth, yet you never hear about that as they are managed by an unfashionable, but more successful manager in Dyche and a crazy German.
"No vitriol" people say.
How can someone who has achieved what Howe has, be a "fraud"?
Embarrassing levels of bitter envy.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
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