| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past 07:49 - Aug 28 with 4698 views | muccletonjoe |
Frankly I am astonished that Lambert wants to revisit this system, it is a round block he has been trying to hammer into a square hole for practically his entire tenure at Ipswich Town.
Firstly, the idea of having a central striker with two wide men, will only work, can only work with midfield backing up attacks, last season , the season before, whenever we have played this system, the striker has been isolated when we have managed to get crosses into the box and the stats speak for themselves, we have gone whole games with barely a shot at goal.
The central midfield have very often played attractive tippy tappy stuff in the middle third , but have rarely managed to connect with either the wide men or the central striker.
The main problem has been ( and still is ) playing the ball out of defence. Retaining pocession is one thing. But the nervousness this causes both among the players and the watching supporters is there for all to see. How many times did we lose points last season due to errors in front of our own penalty area ?
And now it seems the best Lambert can do is more of the same. There are a dozen different options available to him , without instigating too much thinking.
I don't have to predict this formation will not work. We all know already that it doesn't. |  | | |  |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 10:03 - Aug 28 with 538 views | ITFC_Forever |
Because it very quickly lapses in to 451 with an isolated front-man feeding off scraps. |  |
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| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 10:16 - Aug 28 with 523 views | muccletonjoe |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 09:57 - Aug 28 by Herbivore |
You literally started a thread about systems and now you're saying the system doesn't matter. If we use the right players it's pretty evident that 4-3-3 or a variation three of looks our best bet. If you're issue is not picking the right players then I'd agree, but you were raising an issue about the system and suggesting we play 3-5-2 instead when we know from last season that it's not a system that we play well and it's not one that obviously suits our players either. |
I don't see how you can say 433 has EVER worked. Name me a game where it has ?
Many people have pointed out we don't have a forward who can play that role, we don't have wide men who can take on wing backs over the course of 90 minutes and we don't have a defence who can play out from the back.
Tell you what. Wait until the season starts and we' ll talk. | | | |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 10:23 - Aug 28 with 512 views | Herbivore |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 10:16 - Aug 28 by muccletonjoe |
I don't see how you can say 433 has EVER worked. Name me a game where it has ?
Many people have pointed out we don't have a forward who can play that role, we don't have wide men who can take on wing backs over the course of 90 minutes and we don't have a defence who can play out from the back.
Tell you what. Wait until the season starts and we' ll talk. |
We didn't utilise 4-3-3 last season but in some of Lambert's early games here we played some of our best stuff under him using a 4-3-3. Results weren't as good as they could have been but we played some decent stuff. Last season we played 3-5-2 for much of the season and we were hopeless in the third division. I'm not sure why you have such faith in a system that didn't work for us last season.
Having a front man that can't hold it up is an issue in any system, it's not resolved by playing two men up top who can't hold the ball up either. I would argue that Norwood can do it and that tended to be part of his role when playong alongside Jackson last season.
You say we don't have defenders who can play out. That becomes even more of an issue when you play 3-5-2 as you effectively sacrifice a midfielder or forward player for an additional centre back. When that's the case you need your centre backs to contribute to getting you playing rather than just defending. |  |
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| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 10:34 - Aug 28 with 506 views | Horsham |
The best Ipswich teams I saw were under Burley and were based on a passing philosophy. The fact that players were adaptable and could play in multiple positions wasn’t a coincidence, it was down to recruiting footballers who fitted the philosophy. Tactically he moved from 352 and 442 but the basic principle of a compact passing style remained constant. When I say compact what I mean is the basic formation moved left/right/up/down and the movement was either natural or more likely well drilled into the players on the training ground and in matches. It is that sort of playing identity I miss. Burley wasn’t a slave to one formation of another he was pragmatic in using the players he had available and for the most part teams even in the PL worried more about us than we worried about them tactically.
Wind it forward to today and the same principles could be applied. In the absence of a quality number 9 to be a focal point of the attack I’d sooner we played a 2 up front in front of a 4 and a 4, with the overriding principal of being compact and passing and moving being at the core of everything. |  | | |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 10:55 - Aug 28 with 479 views | muccletonjoe |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 10:23 - Aug 28 by Herbivore |
We didn't utilise 4-3-3 last season but in some of Lambert's early games here we played some of our best stuff under him using a 4-3-3. Results weren't as good as they could have been but we played some decent stuff. Last season we played 3-5-2 for much of the season and we were hopeless in the third division. I'm not sure why you have such faith in a system that didn't work for us last season.
Having a front man that can't hold it up is an issue in any system, it's not resolved by playing two men up top who can't hold the ball up either. I would argue that Norwood can do it and that tended to be part of his role when playong alongside Jackson last season.
You say we don't have defenders who can play out. That becomes even more of an issue when you play 3-5-2 as you effectively sacrifice a midfielder or forward player for an additional centre back. When that's the case you need your centre backs to contribute to getting you playing rather than just defending. |
And when the centre backs can play, they will..
https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/talking-tactics-ipswich-4-accrington-1-1-6463623 | | | |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:16 - Aug 28 with 470 views | Simonds92 |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 08:21 - Aug 28 by Herbivore |
That's an issue with how it's been used rather than the formation itself. We have the personnel to make it work, whether we have the manager is another issue. I don't get the obsession with 3-5-2. Is it nostalgia for the Burley days? We've been awful 90% of the time we've used that system under Lambert and it doesn't suit our squad at all. [Post edited 28 Aug 2020 8:30]
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I can remember games from the Burley era (just about), but i certainly didnt have a decent idea of the tactical approach we had so its not nostalgia for me.
I would say we can play 433 definitely if i hadnt seen Lamberts version of 433, which is basically a 451 and incredibly frustrating to watch.
The fact that El Mizouni and Dobra were 2 players who would be ideal for the wide roles, and that the indication today is that they won't be in the squad for at least the first part of the season, shows the way we will go. We'll have Judge wide who will drift all over the place and pass the ball backwards. Edwards who will be anonymous for 80mins, or Jackson who, although effective, doesn't have a great positional sense. Yes Sears and Lankester could come in there but i don't think we really know where they are after long layoffs.
This will leave another isolated striker trying to feed off scraps and because of that, our midfielders then wont take the chance to run beyond, leaving us as toothless as the last 2 seasons. |  | | |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:20 - Aug 28 with 467 views | Herbivore |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:16 - Aug 28 by Simonds92 |
I can remember games from the Burley era (just about), but i certainly didnt have a decent idea of the tactical approach we had so its not nostalgia for me.
I would say we can play 433 definitely if i hadnt seen Lamberts version of 433, which is basically a 451 and incredibly frustrating to watch.
The fact that El Mizouni and Dobra were 2 players who would be ideal for the wide roles, and that the indication today is that they won't be in the squad for at least the first part of the season, shows the way we will go. We'll have Judge wide who will drift all over the place and pass the ball backwards. Edwards who will be anonymous for 80mins, or Jackson who, although effective, doesn't have a great positional sense. Yes Sears and Lankester could come in there but i don't think we really know where they are after long layoffs.
This will leave another isolated striker trying to feed off scraps and because of that, our midfielders then wont take the chance to run beyond, leaving us as toothless as the last 2 seasons. |
If Lambert can't get it right with a formation that should fit our squad then he certainly isn't going to get it right with a formation that doesn't. 3-5-2 doesn't suit our players and didn't work last season. | |
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| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:22 - Aug 28 with 465 views | Herbivore |
Pinning your hopes on one match against Accrington is a bit thin, mate. Chambers is getting older and won't be able to get forward as much, only Woolf can really play the role of stepping out of defence and that's not enough. And if you're now saying our CBs can be ball players you've undermined one of your key objections to us playing 4-3-3. | |
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| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:24 - Aug 28 with 464 views | muccletonjoe |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:22 - Aug 28 by Herbivore |
Pinning your hopes on one match against Accrington is a bit thin, mate. Chambers is getting older and won't be able to get forward as much, only Woolf can really play the role of stepping out of defence and that's not enough. And if you're now saying our CBs can be ball players you've undermined one of your key objections to us playing 4-3-3. |
Ah , I see. Right ! | | | |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:39 - Aug 28 with 455 views | Horsham |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:20 - Aug 28 by Herbivore |
If Lambert can't get it right with a formation that should fit our squad then he certainly isn't going to get it right with a formation that doesn't. 3-5-2 doesn't suit our players and didn't work last season. |
I very much doubt Lambert will get it right whatever the formation. I’ve seen the suggestion from you a few times that KJ should play wide in the 433 and while I totally accept your logic and I don’t see anything to suggest Lambert does. If we accept the logic that KJ is one of the most effective forwards at the club and KJ is seen as best played in a 2 I think it shoots a major hole in the 433 with Lambert in charge. Personally I think we need a 2 up front with the personnel currently at our disposal. | | | |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:44 - Aug 28 with 444 views | Dennyx4 |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:39 - Aug 28 by Horsham |
I very much doubt Lambert will get it right whatever the formation. I’ve seen the suggestion from you a few times that KJ should play wide in the 433 and while I totally accept your logic and I don’t see anything to suggest Lambert does. If we accept the logic that KJ is one of the most effective forwards at the club and KJ is seen as best played in a 2 I think it shoots a major hole in the 433 with Lambert in charge. Personally I think we need a 2 up front with the personnel currently at our disposal. |
Could that be a diamond formation (442)?
I agree with your thoughts on Jackson - he could work wide in a 433, but Lambert does not seem to want to try it. If we do persist with a 433, the two wide players should be an attacking threat, otherwise it does become a 451. |  | | |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:46 - Aug 28 with 443 views | Herbivore |
| 433 and why it hasn't worked in the past on 11:39 - Aug 28 by Horsham |
I very much doubt Lambert will get it right whatever the formation. I’ve seen the suggestion from you a few times that KJ should play wide in the 433 and while I totally accept your logic and I don’t see anything to suggest Lambert does. If we accept the logic that KJ is one of the most effective forwards at the club and KJ is seen as best played in a 2 I think it shoots a major hole in the 433 with Lambert in charge. Personally I think we need a 2 up front with the personnel currently at our disposal. |
To play 2 up front we either go 4-4-2 or 3-5-2, neither of which worked last season. We don't have any decent wide midfielders to play 4-4-2 whilst having a glut of talented central midfielders. If we're playing 3-5-2 we don't have the CBs or a decent left wing back to make that system work. I genuinely think 4-3-3 or a variant of it is the best fit for the squad we have. I don't see Lambert making it work but that's not down to the system or the squad, it's down to him being incompetent. | |
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