| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story 09:40 - Dec 22 with 3940 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
But where does parental responsibility come into this? They're blaming their child's murder on the fact he was excluded from school, ended up going down the wrong path and getting in with the wrong crowd, lost any sense of self discipline, and was then murdered as thought to be part of a gang. But all this is the fault of the school for excluding him in the first place?!?
They don't really go into what he was excluded for, but should kids NEVER be excluded, no matter what they do, because of the path they might end up on? Am I wrong to think the parents are looking for someone to blame while covering up their own failings as parents? Not really sure you can blame the school for this chain of events.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-55353958 |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 16:23 - Dec 22 with 654 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 16:14 - Dec 22 by Mookamoo |
The Serious Case Review has said the school were determined to exclude him. Working with young people with additional needs, this is often the case, especially in free schools and academies as they have different rules to schools run by the local authority. Unfortunately all too often a child who is disruptive is put in the situation where they're going to fail. If the support was there, they would, in most cases, stay in school. In this case it appears Tashaun wasn't given the support he deserved and the school have been instrumental in sending him down that path. My point stands there is almost always an underlying reason for negative behaviour, either diagnosed or otherwise and the school should have been able to work with him. I hope the review will look at if this was wilful neglect or a lack of resources.
I assume you can see the picture of Tashoya who appears to be in a graduation gown. I think that suggests a stable parental environment. You've gone out of your way to add an entire thread in order to attribute blame to the parents. That is wrong. [Post edited 22 Dec 2020 16:15]
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I've attributed SOME blame to the parents, yes. You think they are blameless in all this?
I agree with you that more should've been done by the authorities (not necessarily just the school) to help this child in finding out the reasons for his disruptive behaviour.
Let's not forget, you've brought mental health into this to back your position. There is no suggestion of it in the article. It may well be the case of course, but we can only go on the facts we know. As I said to you earlier, "School Excludes Murdered Autistic Child" would be a very different story.
It seems to me there are lots of factors involved in this tragedy. | |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 16:42 - Dec 22 with 642 views | Mookamoo |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 16:23 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've attributed SOME blame to the parents, yes. You think they are blameless in all this?
I agree with you that more should've been done by the authorities (not necessarily just the school) to help this child in finding out the reasons for his disruptive behaviour.
Let's not forget, you've brought mental health into this to back your position. There is no suggestion of it in the article. It may well be the case of course, but we can only go on the facts we know. As I said to you earlier, "School Excludes Murdered Autistic Child" would be a very different story.
It seems to me there are lots of factors involved in this tragedy. |
OK, lets go with the facts.
A Serious Case Review said his exclusion "was a catalyst to the deterioration in his behaviour".
His exclusion was quashed by an Independent Review Panel. However, the school refused to reinstate him.
The Serious Case Review criticised this decision, saying: "It appeared that the school was determined to PEX (permanently exclude), without consideration of the wider implications to his safety, well-being or his education."
The Serious Case Review noted that Inspire! had a "chaotic environment" that made it "impossible to deliver intervention".
You read all of that and thought it must be the parents fault. |  | | |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 16:56 - Dec 22 with 624 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 16:42 - Dec 22 by Mookamoo |
OK, lets go with the facts.
A Serious Case Review said his exclusion "was a catalyst to the deterioration in his behaviour".
His exclusion was quashed by an Independent Review Panel. However, the school refused to reinstate him.
The Serious Case Review criticised this decision, saying: "It appeared that the school was determined to PEX (permanently exclude), without consideration of the wider implications to his safety, well-being or his education."
The Serious Case Review noted that Inspire! had a "chaotic environment" that made it "impossible to deliver intervention".
You read all of that and thought it must be the parents fault. |
I give up. Nowhere have I simply stated "it must be the parents fault." | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 17:01 - Dec 22 with 616 views | eireblue |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 14:00 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"His family insist Tashaun's exclusion was the crucial issue.
'That's the genesis,' his stepfather Kevin said." |
So that’s a no. |  | | |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 17:03 - Dec 22 with 612 views | footers |
Typical Dolly thread. Very funny. |  |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 17:23 - Dec 22 with 593 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 17:01 - Dec 22 by eireblue |
So that’s a no. |
Point score with pedantry if it makes you feel better.
The parents, and the article generally, clearly blame the school. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 17:24 - Dec 22 with 590 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 17:03 - Dec 22 by footers |
Typical Dolly thread. Very funny. |
This is a serious thread about a tragic murder, footers. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:11 - Dec 22 with 564 views | eireblue |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 17:23 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Point score with pedantry if it makes you feel better.
The parents, and the article generally, clearly blame the school. |
It doesn’t make me feel one way or another.
You emphasised the word “ALL” in response to other postings.
The parents obviously tried to intervene, on a number of occasions.
You have introduced a straw man term in response to other posters.
Just as you have no knowledge of what lead up to the original exclusion, you have no knowledge of what the presents tried to do during that time either.
There is some evidence the parents did intervene.
Again, I wasn’t point scoring.
With respect, you are.
And in any case, parents will fail.
Would you rather that lead to more of these types of incidents?
Or do you think it best to take a step back and look at how and where a child could have been saved.
Here is an article you may want to consider.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/19/school-exclusion-linked-to-lon [Post edited 22 Dec 2020 18:15]
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:12 - Dec 22 with 563 views | Mookamoo |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 16:56 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I give up. Nowhere have I simply stated "it must be the parents fault." |
But felt the need to post that article and then question the culpability of the parents while accused them of 'covering up their own failings. | | | |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:15 - Dec 22 with 559 views | DanTheMan |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 16:14 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You make a fair point that they may feel some responsibility but it's just not outlined. Other than that we'll have to agree to disagree because I can't understand how you can't understand my conclusion (which others in the thread have also come to).
The Serious Case Review would only be dealing with the case of the school, so wouldn't make any comment on the parents anyway.
I wonder, do you think kids should not be excluded from school, in any cases, because of what might become of them thereafter? |
"You make a fair point that they may feel some responsibility but it's just not outlined."
That's basically the only pertinent point here. You've assumed, based on the single few, quotes that the parents solely blame the school and nothing else. And I quote:
"But all this is the fault of the school for excluding him in the first place?!?"
What's also funny is that you've then got annoyed when other people don't immediately recognise you don't solely blame the parents when we only have your quotes to go off. Which is basically what you're doing with the parents, assuming because it's not mentioned they must only blame the school. [Post edited 22 Dec 2020 18:16]
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:17 - Dec 22 with 556 views | footers |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 17:24 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
This is a serious thread about a tragic murder, footers. |
I was merely highlighting your, erm, idiosyncratic approach to constructive conversation, old fruit. Wouldn't get too upset by it.
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:59 - Dec 22 with 529 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:17 - Dec 22 by footers |
I was merely highlighting your, erm, idiosyncratic approach to constructive conversation, old fruit. Wouldn't get too upset by it.
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footers, not now. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 19:40 - Dec 22 with 502 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:11 - Dec 22 by eireblue |
It doesn’t make me feel one way or another.
You emphasised the word “ALL” in response to other postings.
The parents obviously tried to intervene, on a number of occasions.
You have introduced a straw man term in response to other posters.
Just as you have no knowledge of what lead up to the original exclusion, you have no knowledge of what the presents tried to do during that time either.
There is some evidence the parents did intervene.
Again, I wasn’t point scoring.
With respect, you are.
And in any case, parents will fail.
Would you rather that lead to more of these types of incidents?
Or do you think it best to take a step back and look at how and where a child could have been saved.
Here is an article you may want to consider.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/19/school-exclusion-linked-to-lon [Post edited 22 Dec 2020 18:15]
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You make some very good points.
I feel like I'm coming across as a heartless b-stard. I just took umbrage to the school being blamed. It seems to happen a lot these days; blaming the authorities. I have some sympathy with the school, who probably feel awful. Teachers get a lot of undeserved stick at times (I know a few, one whom is a head teacher).
I'm not point scoring or making straw men. Mookamoo accused me of blaming the parents, which is why I was forced to use "all". As I've said elsewhere, there's failings in lots of places here. I don't put it all on the parents, or the school, or the local authority. It's just the parents blaming the school for the start of it all that got to me. The school didn't make him behave badly.
In an ideal world I'd like to see mental health professionals get in at the exclusion stage. I agree, taking a step back and looking at how and where the child could have been saved is crucial in all this. Which is why I think apportioning blame is all wrong. Everyone involved needs to hold their hands up, then a strategy is needed to stop this happening again.
Saying the school was the catalyst is wrong. The school wasn't the catalyst. The bad behaviour was the catalyst - and why that happened, and the consequences, need to be looked into. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 19:43 - Dec 22 with 500 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:12 - Dec 22 by Mookamoo |
But felt the need to post that article and then question the culpability of the parents while accused them of 'covering up their own failings. |
As I asked you two posts ago, but you failed to answer, you think they are totally blameless?
You think it's right to blame the school for your child being so disruptive they need to be excluded? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 19:48 - Dec 22 with 489 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 18:15 - Dec 22 by DanTheMan |
"You make a fair point that they may feel some responsibility but it's just not outlined."
That's basically the only pertinent point here. You've assumed, based on the single few, quotes that the parents solely blame the school and nothing else. And I quote:
"But all this is the fault of the school for excluding him in the first place?!?"
What's also funny is that you've then got annoyed when other people don't immediately recognise you don't solely blame the parents when we only have your quotes to go off. Which is basically what you're doing with the parents, assuming because it's not mentioned they must only blame the school. [Post edited 22 Dec 2020 18:16]
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I haven't solely blamed the parents though. None of what I've said does that.
They do, however, say the school was the catalyst. Whether they take any responsibility or not, it's surely not the school's fault that this child was so badly behaved he had to be expelled? So how can the school be the catalyst to his downward spiral? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 19:55 - Dec 22 with 477 views | jeera |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 19:43 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
As I asked you two posts ago, but you failed to answer, you think they are totally blameless?
You think it's right to blame the school for your child being so disruptive they need to be excluded? |
For me when I first had a flick through this morning when I saw your post, I felt the poor lad's demise arose from a series of unfortunate events.
I don't think there's much doubt he was let down though, be it by the school, but clearly by society in general which contributed to the overall outcome.
I mean, like most of us, if he was born into another situation and all that.
The parents may be great but sometimes it's not enough. Other influences are too strong and you need a little help.
Kids do spend a massive amount of their young lives at school so although I strongly believe parenting is rooted in the home, it takes a village to raise a kid and all that.
The education system, rather than individuals at the school perhaps, let him and many others down on a daily basis. |  |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:18 - Dec 22 with 463 views | DanTheMan |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 19:48 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I haven't solely blamed the parents though. None of what I've said does that.
They do, however, say the school was the catalyst. Whether they take any responsibility or not, it's surely not the school's fault that this child was so badly behaved he had to be expelled? So how can the school be the catalyst to his downward spiral? |
Ah but you didn't not blame the parents (in the OP), just like in the article the parents didn't take responsibility themselves.
So, using your own logic, I can only assume that you entirely blame the parents.
(See the problem?) | |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:23 - Dec 22 with 454 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 19:55 - Dec 22 by jeera |
For me when I first had a flick through this morning when I saw your post, I felt the poor lad's demise arose from a series of unfortunate events.
I don't think there's much doubt he was let down though, be it by the school, but clearly by society in general which contributed to the overall outcome.
I mean, like most of us, if he was born into another situation and all that.
The parents may be great but sometimes it's not enough. Other influences are too strong and you need a little help.
Kids do spend a massive amount of their young lives at school so although I strongly believe parenting is rooted in the home, it takes a village to raise a kid and all that.
The education system, rather than individuals at the school perhaps, let him and many others down on a daily basis. |
I totally agree with you on all this. I notice "Passionnotanger" is downvoting everything I say (Ryorry's alter ego) but we agree on what you've posted here.
You say "I strongly believe parenting is rooted in the home" which is what I've been saying here, but maybe I've been a bit clumsy with it and the point that others do have a huge influence.
My point was that the parents are accusing the school of causing this. That's what got my goat. Everyone is to blame for this. Including themselves - which is why it's galling that they are pointing the finger at the school.
I appreciate this may have been made to look worse by the editorial of the article. But the quotes, by the stepdad, of the school being the catalyst seem off to me. It's true I don't know what else they think. I can only go by what they've been quoted as saying here.
Come on Jeera, you're a reasonable chap, you can see my point here? Everyone seems to be blaming the school, and on the face of it the parents seem to think their child's upbringing is nothing to do with them. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:32 - Dec 22 with 447 views | jeera |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:23 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I totally agree with you on all this. I notice "Passionnotanger" is downvoting everything I say (Ryorry's alter ego) but we agree on what you've posted here.
You say "I strongly believe parenting is rooted in the home" which is what I've been saying here, but maybe I've been a bit clumsy with it and the point that others do have a huge influence.
My point was that the parents are accusing the school of causing this. That's what got my goat. Everyone is to blame for this. Including themselves - which is why it's galling that they are pointing the finger at the school.
I appreciate this may have been made to look worse by the editorial of the article. But the quotes, by the stepdad, of the school being the catalyst seem off to me. It's true I don't know what else they think. I can only go by what they've been quoted as saying here.
Come on Jeera, you're a reasonable chap, you can see my point here? Everyone seems to be blaming the school, and on the face of it the parents seem to think their child's upbringing is nothing to do with them. |
Truthfully, without wishing to stomp on anyone here, I think their son is dead and they are upset.
And that we don't know much other than has been published here.
You know as well as I do that quotes can be selective.
I can look back - and I do - and point the finger quite accurately at a teacher or two who changed my entire direction at school for the worse. There was a specific teacher who bullied me when I was 11 years old, for example. To balance that a bit, I knew a couple of amazing teachers who were wasted in such a sh1thole.
I can't make that sort of direct connection here because I just don't have enough info mate.
I understand your point for what it's worth, but maybe we could give the folks there a bit of a break what with circumstances and that. | |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:39 - Dec 22 with 439 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:18 - Dec 22 by DanTheMan |
Ah but you didn't not blame the parents (in the OP), just like in the article the parents didn't take responsibility themselves.
So, using your own logic, I can only assume that you entirely blame the parents.
(See the problem?) |
haha, ok. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:51 - Dec 22 with 428 views | Mookamoo |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 19:43 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
As I asked you two posts ago, but you failed to answer, you think they are totally blameless?
You think it's right to blame the school for your child being so disruptive they need to be excluded? |
No one can be totally blameless. What an absurd thing to say.
Yes you can absolutely blame the school. You're speaking to a parent who has had a child excluded. A child who has additional needs which is why I've tried to get you undestand the pressures that parents can find themselves in, through no fault of their own. Our particular experience involved becoming on first name terms with the County Inclusion Officer who had to get involved on our behalf. A change in headteacher at our local primary resulted in a total change in attitude towards anyone with a Statement. ALL ended up excluded at some point as they were no longer welcome. We were one of the lucky families in that we had a diagnosis and Statement to fall back on and could fight our corner. Those that had issues but didn't have that bit of paper were just labeled by as bad kids who had bad parents.
Our child went on to get 3 A's at A Level and is now at university, but it was a real struggle to get there and only possible once he had changed schools. Low and behold, once he was in an environment that supported him, the negative behaviour reduced and he was able to stay in mainstream school. The outcome could have been very different.
I will also add I have two other children, both of which didn't have the same problems. I polity suggest them and Tashoya prove it is not the parenting. | | | |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:54 - Dec 22 with 423 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:32 - Dec 22 by jeera |
Truthfully, without wishing to stomp on anyone here, I think their son is dead and they are upset.
And that we don't know much other than has been published here.
You know as well as I do that quotes can be selective.
I can look back - and I do - and point the finger quite accurately at a teacher or two who changed my entire direction at school for the worse. There was a specific teacher who bullied me when I was 11 years old, for example. To balance that a bit, I knew a couple of amazing teachers who were wasted in such a sh1thole.
I can't make that sort of direct connection here because I just don't have enough info mate.
I understand your point for what it's worth, but maybe we could give the folks there a bit of a break what with circumstances and that. |
Well said. Actually that's a brilliant post.
I only really remember the teachers who pushed me to good things (my junior school teacher who gave me a bookmark when I left, on which she wrote "keep up the poetry". I was a shy kid... and I now perform poetry on stages in London. They were the best words ever said to me at school. I've tried to find her since, just to give her a bunch of flowers or something, but to no avail. The school only has records so far back).
Yeah, their son is dead. Who knows how one would react in such a situation. It's true, I don't know the full story, I was just reacting to what I saw in this article. I can never put myself in their shoes. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 21:03 - Dec 22 with 412 views | giant_stow |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:51 - Dec 22 by Mookamoo |
No one can be totally blameless. What an absurd thing to say.
Yes you can absolutely blame the school. You're speaking to a parent who has had a child excluded. A child who has additional needs which is why I've tried to get you undestand the pressures that parents can find themselves in, through no fault of their own. Our particular experience involved becoming on first name terms with the County Inclusion Officer who had to get involved on our behalf. A change in headteacher at our local primary resulted in a total change in attitude towards anyone with a Statement. ALL ended up excluded at some point as they were no longer welcome. We were one of the lucky families in that we had a diagnosis and Statement to fall back on and could fight our corner. Those that had issues but didn't have that bit of paper were just labeled by as bad kids who had bad parents.
Our child went on to get 3 A's at A Level and is now at university, but it was a real struggle to get there and only possible once he had changed schools. Low and behold, once he was in an environment that supported him, the negative behaviour reduced and he was able to stay in mainstream school. The outcome could have been very different.
I will also add I have two other children, both of which didn't have the same problems. I polity suggest them and Tashoya prove it is not the parenting. |
3 As?! The smart arse. |  |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 21:12 - Dec 22 with 407 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 20:51 - Dec 22 by Mookamoo |
No one can be totally blameless. What an absurd thing to say.
Yes you can absolutely blame the school. You're speaking to a parent who has had a child excluded. A child who has additional needs which is why I've tried to get you undestand the pressures that parents can find themselves in, through no fault of their own. Our particular experience involved becoming on first name terms with the County Inclusion Officer who had to get involved on our behalf. A change in headteacher at our local primary resulted in a total change in attitude towards anyone with a Statement. ALL ended up excluded at some point as they were no longer welcome. We were one of the lucky families in that we had a diagnosis and Statement to fall back on and could fight our corner. Those that had issues but didn't have that bit of paper were just labeled by as bad kids who had bad parents.
Our child went on to get 3 A's at A Level and is now at university, but it was a real struggle to get there and only possible once he had changed schools. Low and behold, once he was in an environment that supported him, the negative behaviour reduced and he was able to stay in mainstream school. The outcome could have been very different.
I will also add I have two other children, both of which didn't have the same problems. I polity suggest them and Tashoya prove it is not the parenting. |
I am so sorry. That is a sobering story. I wish you'd shared some of that earlier on. It's a fantastic story though; one of hope. Honestly, this is what I want for all troubled children.
I can see why you were as you were earlier. I'm sure you can see where I was coming from, about blaming the school, but I do appreciate there is so much more, than what we read, to these stories.
I'm delighted your children, all of them, are now doing great.
I've not posted this on here before, but my missus wants kids and I've been reticent because I think why would you force someone on this horrible world? She points out that they'd be better equipped because they have great people like us as parents. Which is a lovely endorsement, I just don't want a mini version of me to go through what I went through.
I've probably shared too much, but this thread has bizarrely turned into a lovely thread. It's made me think. Thanks. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 21:27 - Dec 22 with 393 views | Mookamoo |
| I may be out of line here, or missing something, and this is a tragic story on 21:12 - Dec 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I am so sorry. That is a sobering story. I wish you'd shared some of that earlier on. It's a fantastic story though; one of hope. Honestly, this is what I want for all troubled children.
I can see why you were as you were earlier. I'm sure you can see where I was coming from, about blaming the school, but I do appreciate there is so much more, than what we read, to these stories.
I'm delighted your children, all of them, are now doing great.
I've not posted this on here before, but my missus wants kids and I've been reticent because I think why would you force someone on this horrible world? She points out that they'd be better equipped because they have great people like us as parents. Which is a lovely endorsement, I just don't want a mini version of me to go through what I went through.
I've probably shared too much, but this thread has bizarrely turned into a lovely thread. It's made me think. Thanks. |
Thank you. All parents will make mistakes and they their own harshest critics. It is worth it. | | | |
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