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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. 12:35 - Oct 12 with 990 viewsKievthegreat

But the spanish have right have been positively chugging the cool aid.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58882832.amp

The leader of Spain's far-right Vox party, Santiago Abascal, denounced Mr Biden as "the lamentable president of the United States".

He added: "He has just attacked the great masterpiece of the Spanish conquest: the evangelisation.

"How proud we can feel about what our ancestors did," he said, describing the Spanish colonies as "the empire of human rights".

Also...

"Does the kingdom of Spain have to apologise because five centuries ago it discovered the New World, respected those who were there, created universities, created prosperity, built entire cities? I don't think so," Mr Casado said in a video posted on Twitter.
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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:45 - Oct 12 with 928 viewsDanTheMan

Those are some very hot takes on what Columbus and the Spanish empire did.

I've never understood how one can say that they shouldn't have to apologise for something that happened centuries ago (which I think is fair) but at the same time saying you can feel proud about those same things that happened.

If you can feel pride in it, you can feel bad about it too.

I will also say that article isn't brilliant, pointing particularly at:
In North America, the settlers' technological advantages were similarly key to driving indigenous people from their homes and seizing their land.

I'd say that guns were a very small part of it, not a key part.
[Post edited 12 Oct 13:07]

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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:46 - Oct 12 with 922 viewsBarcaBlue

It's not just Vox but the Partido Popular and Ciudadanos are currently unfurling their Spanish flags under the Columbus monument in Barcelona and the king is presiding over a military parade in Madrid.
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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:47 - Oct 12 with 917 viewsBlueBadger

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:45 - Oct 12 by DanTheMan

Those are some very hot takes on what Columbus and the Spanish empire did.

I've never understood how one can say that they shouldn't have to apologise for something that happened centuries ago (which I think is fair) but at the same time saying you can feel proud about those same things that happened.

If you can feel pride in it, you can feel bad about it too.

I will also say that article isn't brilliant, pointing particularly at:
In North America, the settlers' technological advantages were similarly key to driving indigenous people from their homes and seizing their land.

I'd say that guns were a very small part of it, not a key part.
[Post edited 12 Oct 13:07]


The whole host of new diseases they brought with them was probably a far greater factor.

Guffers, I'm sure will be able to colour this one in far more eloquently than I can.

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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:52 - Oct 12 with 882 viewsDanTheMan

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:47 - Oct 12 by BlueBadger

The whole host of new diseases they brought with them was probably a far greater factor.

Guffers, I'm sure will be able to colour this one in far more eloquently than I can.


Not even just that, there was so much that happened over multiple centuries. In particular that bit is talking about North America which is different than what Spain did in South America.

There was a good response to a similar point on AskHistorians a couple of months ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/p3hjwo/during_the_1500s_could_th

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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:54 - Oct 12 with 875 viewsleitrimblue

Think it was only last week that one of the vox/PP politicians based in Madrid was giving out to the pope for apologizing for the Catholic churches 'errors in Latin America'. She was suggesting that 'Spain brought civilisation, Catholicism an freedom to the Americas'. It's strange how these people who have no understanding of history seem so eager to write it
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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 13:01 - Oct 12 with 819 viewslowhouseblue

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:45 - Oct 12 by DanTheMan

Those are some very hot takes on what Columbus and the Spanish empire did.

I've never understood how one can say that they shouldn't have to apologise for something that happened centuries ago (which I think is fair) but at the same time saying you can feel proud about those same things that happened.

If you can feel pride in it, you can feel bad about it too.

I will also say that article isn't brilliant, pointing particularly at:
In North America, the settlers' technological advantages were similarly key to driving indigenous people from their homes and seizing their land.

I'd say that guns were a very small part of it, not a key part.
[Post edited 12 Oct 13:07]


absolutely - regret and pride are both dead ends. we just have to be honest about the past - we're not responsible for it good or bad, we just need to avoid spinning it to make it comfortable or to fit some current agenda.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 13:23 - Oct 12 with 750 viewsGuthrum

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 12:52 - Oct 12 by DanTheMan

Not even just that, there was so much that happened over multiple centuries. In particular that bit is talking about North America which is different than what Spain did in South America.

There was a good response to a similar point on AskHistorians a couple of months ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/p3hjwo/during_the_1500s_could_th


Perhaps more significant than the technology was the military approach of the Europeans. They came from a background of dense, even surplus population, where wars were fought to ruthlessly defeat opponents, involving great brutality not only upon the battlefield, but also against civilians and the destruction of infrastructure (c.f. the Spanish-Dutch wars, the French and German wars of religion, the Thirty Years War).

Contrast this with a low level, tribal style of fighting, which tends to be more about status and personal prowess, but without risking your own population base by incurring severe casualties (thus not inflicting so many, either). A small tribal or clan unit losing too many people risks its own economic viability.

It wasn't just the Europeans, mind. The Aztecs and the Zulu both did something similar to gain their superiority.

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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 13:25 - Oct 12 with 743 viewsGuthrum

'... respected those who were there ...'

Gmpf.

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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 14:38 - Oct 12 with 629 viewsleitrimblue

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 13:23 - Oct 12 by Guthrum

Perhaps more significant than the technology was the military approach of the Europeans. They came from a background of dense, even surplus population, where wars were fought to ruthlessly defeat opponents, involving great brutality not only upon the battlefield, but also against civilians and the destruction of infrastructure (c.f. the Spanish-Dutch wars, the French and German wars of religion, the Thirty Years War).

Contrast this with a low level, tribal style of fighting, which tends to be more about status and personal prowess, but without risking your own population base by incurring severe casualties (thus not inflicting so many, either). A small tribal or clan unit losing too many people risks its own economic viability.

It wasn't just the Europeans, mind. The Aztecs and the Zulu both did something similar to gain their superiority.


When you talk about ' tribal style' of fighting, I always found Roman accounts of skirmishes with iron age/Celtic tribes very interesting/revealing. Both sides often believe they win due to there different war styles and cultures. The Romans tend to believe they we're victorious because they killed a lot more of the enemy then the enemy killed Romans. Celtic warrior/ war culture is as you point out more about personal bravery and being heroic. Therefore if you stand there semi naked with just your sword in your hand and thousands of Romans refuse to come out from behind there shields to fight(Roman style of fighting being much more regimented and involved stabbing out from a line of defensive shields) there is only one winner in the heroic stakes and it's not those hiding behind their shields even though they just killed half yer tribe
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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 16:57 - Oct 12 with 491 viewsfactual_blue

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 13:25 - Oct 12 by Guthrum

'... respected those who were there ...'

Gmpf.


Columbus sailed for India
Found Salvador instead
He shook hands with some Indians and soon they all were dead
They got TB and typhoid and athlete's foot
Diphtheria and the flu
Excuse me great nations coming through!



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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 17:53 - Oct 12 with 430 viewsnoggin

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 14:38 - Oct 12 by leitrimblue

When you talk about ' tribal style' of fighting, I always found Roman accounts of skirmishes with iron age/Celtic tribes very interesting/revealing. Both sides often believe they win due to there different war styles and cultures. The Romans tend to believe they we're victorious because they killed a lot more of the enemy then the enemy killed Romans. Celtic warrior/ war culture is as you point out more about personal bravery and being heroic. Therefore if you stand there semi naked with just your sword in your hand and thousands of Romans refuse to come out from behind there shields to fight(Roman style of fighting being much more regimented and involved stabbing out from a line of defensive shields) there is only one winner in the heroic stakes and it's not those hiding behind their shields even though they just killed half yer tribe


Hence Scotland won 0-0 in the Euros game v England recently.
[Post edited 12 Oct 17:53]

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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 09:22 - Oct 13 with 277 viewsleitrimblue

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 17:53 - Oct 12 by noggin

Hence Scotland won 0-0 in the Euros game v England recently.
[Post edited 12 Oct 17:53]


Exactly 😁. Or even more disturbing those Hungarian pricks last night. Faced down a well armed and organized force with just their pure stupidity to protect um. When those lads get back to their mud hut village's there gonna be many a boney cow sacrificed in their honor
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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 10:05 - Oct 13 with 253 viewsDarth_Koont

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 17:53 - Oct 12 by noggin

Hence Scotland won 0-0 in the Euros game v England recently.
[Post edited 12 Oct 17:53]


Indeed!

But I’d already factored in a 2 or 3 goal loss there so I’m calling it as 2-0 to us. 😀

On a related note, it’s been an utter pleasure to watch Billy Gilmour over recent games. Just ridiculously good for someone that age — and in one of the toughest positions too. They’ll be talking about him alongside Pirlo and Modric in a few years’ time.
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I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 10:17 - Oct 13 with 232 viewsleitrimblue

I thought our History Denialists fighting the "War on Woke" were bad.. on 10:05 - Oct 13 by Darth_Koont

Indeed!

But I’d already factored in a 2 or 3 goal loss there so I’m calling it as 2-0 to us. 😀

On a related note, it’s been an utter pleasure to watch Billy Gilmour over recent games. Just ridiculously good for someone that age — and in one of the toughest positions too. They’ll be talking about him alongside Pirlo and Modric in a few years’ time.


I'd like to see Scotland embrace their past an come out completely naked, just covered from head to toe in blue tattoos as the crowd blow war horns, scram obscenities an bang there swords against their shields. Way more impressive then the Haka
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