| Chirewa 14:31 - Oct 10 with 4923 views | Wallingford_Boy |
Just curled in a long range effort for the ressies just now, seems to score every week!
How good is this lad? Knocking on the first team door soon? |  |
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| Chirewa on 10:02 - Oct 11 with 1259 views | itfcsuth |
Technically clearly a talented boy but not in the first team fold yet.
Think physically more than technically he isn't ready from what I have seen of him. [Post edited 11 Oct 2022 10:08]
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| Chirewa on 10:11 - Oct 11 with 1226 views | itfcsuth |
| Chirewa on 20:14 - Oct 10 by itfcjoe |
But is Humphreys getting a chance here? He's been on the bench for one league game when we have a flurry of injuries |
He's had two starts in the Papa John's Trophy and 1 league game on the bench - that is pretty much where he is at right now.
He's 18 years old - still got more development before he'll be a regular first team member yet. | | | |
| Chirewa on 10:11 - Oct 11 with 1228 views | Dyland |
| Chirewa on 08:42 - Oct 11 by xrayspecs |
I think Wolf is a good example of how much time and patience is required to get into your clubs first team.
Downes made the transition quicker, he had one loan at Luton before starting in the Championhip. Dozzell stayed here but took a few years to establish himself. Nydam had a couple of loans before he got badly injured. Very few players go into the first team squad after leaving the scholarship programme aged 18.
KM has lots of experience in developing young players, I trust his judgement on when they are ready or not. [Post edited 11 Oct 2022 8:43]
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Wolf got in the first team before the current set-up. Joers is right on this.
The lack of opps for academy players vs how we are currently operating is a conundrum, cos we are doing 'something' right at the moment and long may it continue, but hard to argue ITFC haven't 'lost' a little something too, whatever that means.
Modern football innit. |  |
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| Chirewa on 10:27 - Oct 11 with 1198 views | xrayspecs |
| Chirewa on 09:22 - Oct 11 by itfcjoe |
Harper was clearly going out on loan but yet was still ahead of Humphreys.
What realistically is development path for Humphreys? Do we expect him to get any consequential league minutes this season? What does he need to do to get them? |
Humphreys development plan is to be in the first team squad this season, train with them every day, be around the squad on match day. He is a starter in five+ cup games, playing U21 football as a 18 year old. He will still be developing physically and adjusting to playing competitive first team games on a regular basis.
He may get on the bench for some league games, depending on how well he does.
You seem obsessed with development equating to first team league appearance.
For most players, this is not the case. |  | | |
| Chirewa on 10:33 - Oct 11 with 1188 views | itfcjoe |
| Chirewa on 10:11 - Oct 11 by itfcsuth |
He's had two starts in the Papa John's Trophy and 1 league game on the bench - that is pretty much where he is at right now.
He's 18 years old - still got more development before he'll be a regular first team member yet. |
Realistically, to get into our first team squad our youngsters are going to need to go away and play at least 50 senior games elsewhere unless they get incredibly lucky with an opportunity foisted on them by injuries elsewhere.
When we went down to Plymouth we had players away on international duty, a number of injuries and Ahadme was ill in the days leading up to the game and he still doesn't get to the 18.
When you have 22 senior players there simply isn't a pathway, and even looking at loan spells isn't going to get you there either when you see what has happened with Ndaba and Simpson last year.
Our team is pretty old for the division, and very experienced - we've got the players well after they've bedded into first team football, which negates the opportunity for 'our own' to do that |  |
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| Chirewa on 10:35 - Oct 11 with 1176 views | itfcjoe |
| Chirewa on 10:27 - Oct 11 by xrayspecs |
Humphreys development plan is to be in the first team squad this season, train with them every day, be around the squad on match day. He is a starter in five+ cup games, playing U21 football as a 18 year old. He will still be developing physically and adjusting to playing competitive first team games on a regular basis.
He may get on the bench for some league games, depending on how well he does.
You seem obsessed with development equating to first team league appearance.
For most players, this is not the case. |
No player is ever going to develop and become first team ready without first team football, when George Burley and Bryan Klug were so successful here re bringing players through they used to talk about needing 50 games of senior football before you are ready. | |
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| Chirewa on 11:03 - Oct 11 with 1127 views | xrayspecs |
| Chirewa on 10:11 - Oct 11 by Dyland |
Wolf got in the first team before the current set-up. Joers is right on this.
The lack of opps for academy players vs how we are currently operating is a conundrum, cos we are doing 'something' right at the moment and long may it continue, but hard to argue ITFC haven't 'lost' a little something too, whatever that means.
Modern football innit. |
My point was about what a player needs when transitioning from a scholarship programme into regular first team football.
In the premiership and championship, most players need to get first team experience in lower leagues before being ready for their first team. It is very uncommon for 18 year olds to step up straight into first team football. It is the same at Town. | | | |
| Chirewa on 11:06 - Oct 11 with 1124 views | itfcjoe |
| Chirewa on 11:03 - Oct 11 by xrayspecs |
My point was about what a player needs when transitioning from a scholarship programme into regular first team football.
In the premiership and championship, most players need to get first team experience in lower leagues before being ready for their first team. It is very uncommon for 18 year olds to step up straight into first team football. It is the same at Town. |
It's not uncommon in League One | |
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| Chirewa on 11:07 - Oct 11 with 1116 views | xrayspecs |
| Chirewa on 08:43 - Oct 11 by itfcjoe |
People need to remember that first team football at your parent club is part of your development - there are just absolutely minimal opportunities for youngsters.
Humphreys was streets ahead of Rekeem Harper through pre season in every game, then vs Colchester when Harper was dire and Humphreys was good.....who was on the bench that weekend? Rekeem Harper.
Any player signed for a fee and given a first team wage is automatically considered a senior player, and the senior squad is full |
I would challenge that view Joe. How many 18 year olds at Premier League, Championship and the bigger League One sides transition from a scholarship programme into the first team squad. That is exceptionally rare.
I would make the case that Humphreys has achieved more by being with the first team squad this season, playing in cup games and being around the match day squad than most of his peer group, who completed their scholarship this summer.
Development does not need to mean regular first team football with your parent club. | | | |
| Chirewa on 11:10 - Oct 11 with 1111 views | xrayspecs |
| Chirewa on 09:22 - Oct 11 by itfcjoe |
Harper was clearly going out on loan but yet was still ahead of Humphreys.
What realistically is development path for Humphreys? Do we expect him to get any consequential league minutes this season? What does he need to do to get them? |
I have addressed your question in another post, so will be very brief.
Development does not need to mean regular first team football with Town. How many 18 year olds go straight from a scholarship programme into their first team? Most need to get adult football in lower leagues before they are ready. | | | |
| Chirewa on 11:12 - Oct 11 with 1105 views | xrayspecs |
| Chirewa on 10:35 - Oct 11 by itfcjoe |
No player is ever going to develop and become first team ready without first team football, when George Burley and Bryan Klug were so successful here re bringing players through they used to talk about needing 50 games of senior football before you are ready. |
Exactly. Which is why we send players out on loan to get regular first team experience. We are not going to weaken our team by playing 18 year olds in meaningful game. | | | |
| Chirewa on 11:13 - Oct 11 with 1099 views | xrayspecs |
| Chirewa on 11:06 - Oct 11 by itfcjoe |
It's not uncommon in League One |
At smaller clubs, yes, who have fewer senior players. But not at Prem, Champ and upwardly mobile L1 clubs. | | | |
| Chirewa on 11:25 - Oct 11 with 1071 views | itfcsuth |
| Chirewa on 10:33 - Oct 11 by itfcjoe |
Realistically, to get into our first team squad our youngsters are going to need to go away and play at least 50 senior games elsewhere unless they get incredibly lucky with an opportunity foisted on them by injuries elsewhere.
When we went down to Plymouth we had players away on international duty, a number of injuries and Ahadme was ill in the days leading up to the game and he still doesn't get to the 18.
When you have 22 senior players there simply isn't a pathway, and even looking at loan spells isn't going to get you there either when you see what has happened with Ndaba and Simpson last year.
Our team is pretty old for the division, and very experienced - we've got the players well after they've bedded into first team football, which negates the opportunity for 'our own' to do that |
There is certainly a more limited pathway, but it looks like the correct decision right now, we are doing very well at the top end of the division.
There also needs to be the question of whether these kids are good enough to come and take the shirt of the players in the first team right now - I'd probably say no they are not ready to do that yet.
Average age of the squad I believe is just over 26, not drastically high, less than 20% of the group are either 30+.
It's a group right now largely in the best age of their careers, or heading into that period. | | | |
| Chirewa on 11:42 - Oct 11 with 1043 views | itfcjoe |
| Chirewa on 11:25 - Oct 11 by itfcsuth |
There is certainly a more limited pathway, but it looks like the correct decision right now, we are doing very well at the top end of the division.
There also needs to be the question of whether these kids are good enough to come and take the shirt of the players in the first team right now - I'd probably say no they are not ready to do that yet.
Average age of the squad I believe is just over 26, not drastically high, less than 20% of the group are either 30+.
It's a group right now largely in the best age of their careers, or heading into that period. |
The same was said last season about it being the right approach and we finished 11th in League One, the same was said when Hurst came in that these players were better than Downes and Dozzell and we finished bottom.
I can’t square up how our players get opportunities here - what can any of those on loan, or Humphreys do that will see them in our team next season? | |
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| Chirewa on 11:43 - Oct 11 with 1043 views | Dyland |
| Chirewa on 11:03 - Oct 11 by xrayspecs |
My point was about what a player needs when transitioning from a scholarship programme into regular first team football.
In the premiership and championship, most players need to get first team experience in lower leagues before being ready for their first team. It is very uncommon for 18 year olds to step up straight into first team football. It is the same at Town. |
Aye I get that. The reason for questioning the (perceived lack of) opps at ITFC is in part due to our proud tradition of bringing players through who 'star' in the first team. And of course the sustainability and hell, general 'rightness' of doing it this way. Of course, football has changed as has ITFC set-up.
Success/result trumps the method in this case but there's not much in it. Imo, obvs.
COYFB | |
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| Chirewa on 11:55 - Oct 11 with 1025 views | Parsley |
| Chirewa on 11:25 - Oct 11 by itfcsuth |
There is certainly a more limited pathway, but it looks like the correct decision right now, we are doing very well at the top end of the division.
There also needs to be the question of whether these kids are good enough to come and take the shirt of the players in the first team right now - I'd probably say no they are not ready to do that yet.
Average age of the squad I believe is just over 26, not drastically high, less than 20% of the group are either 30+.
It's a group right now largely in the best age of their careers, or heading into that period. |
It seems to me that a club with promotion ambitions and significant financial backing doesn't have room for development of young players in the first team squad. It's a risk playing an unproven player so if you're in 'win-now' mode and have the choice then you'd build a squad with experienced players. Off the top of my head the only real young players in the current squad are Davis (22), John-Jules (21) and Ahadme (21) and even then Ahadme is probably 4th choice striker.
As an Ipswich fan this doesn't quite sit right with me, but I think I'm more used to us having a limited budget and needing young players to come through in order to be competitive. I think the reality now is that our young players need to go out on loan to get experience and then have a chance of breaking into this team. |  | | |
| Chirewa on 12:06 - Oct 11 with 997 views | xrayspecs |
| Chirewa on 11:43 - Oct 11 by Dyland |
Aye I get that. The reason for questioning the (perceived lack of) opps at ITFC is in part due to our proud tradition of bringing players through who 'star' in the first team. And of course the sustainability and hell, general 'rightness' of doing it this way. Of course, football has changed as has ITFC set-up.
Success/result trumps the method in this case but there's not much in it. Imo, obvs.
COYFB |
What you also need to consider is how the game has changed over the last 5-10 years. It is faster, more athletic, with a greater focus on physical ability to perform. You only have to look at the profile of players McKenna has targeted this season. There is so much more sports science being used to measure performance levels.
It is harder now for 18 year olds to transition out of an Academy and straight into first team football, than it would have been when the likes of Dyer and Ambrose broke into the Town first team. A few players are able to step up, most though will need time to develop the physical side of their game. | | | |
| Chirewa on 13:36 - Oct 11 with 907 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Chirewa on 12:06 - Oct 11 by xrayspecs |
What you also need to consider is how the game has changed over the last 5-10 years. It is faster, more athletic, with a greater focus on physical ability to perform. You only have to look at the profile of players McKenna has targeted this season. There is so much more sports science being used to measure performance levels.
It is harder now for 18 year olds to transition out of an Academy and straight into first team football, than it would have been when the likes of Dyer and Ambrose broke into the Town first team. A few players are able to step up, most though will need time to develop the physical side of their game. |
Liam Gibbs is closer to Norwich's first team at the top of the Championship than he would be here right now. With 5 subs now there is no reason why Humphreys shouldn't be getting 20-25 minutes in league games. He's good enough, he's as good as anyone on the pitch whenever he plays. He is far more suited to replace Lee Evans than Dom Ball is. That isn't knocking Ball either.
Would we be any worse off this season if El Mizouni had played Ball's minutes? He's another one that has never let us down when he's played but can't get a real chance. At some point you have to give players a chance. [Post edited 11 Oct 2022 13:36]
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| Chirewa on 14:12 - Oct 11 with 863 views | xrayspecs |
| Chirewa on 13:36 - Oct 11 by tractorboy1978 |
Liam Gibbs is closer to Norwich's first team at the top of the Championship than he would be here right now. With 5 subs now there is no reason why Humphreys shouldn't be getting 20-25 minutes in league games. He's good enough, he's as good as anyone on the pitch whenever he plays. He is far more suited to replace Lee Evans than Dom Ball is. That isn't knocking Ball either.
Would we be any worse off this season if El Mizouni had played Ball's minutes? He's another one that has never let us down when he's played but can't get a real chance. At some point you have to give players a chance. [Post edited 11 Oct 2022 13:36]
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On Gibbs, that is supposition, we do not know, but I understand your point.
Humphreys may be technically as good as the other players but he has very limited experience playing adult football and may not have the physicality needed. I am sure KM will play him when he feels Carmeron is ready.
Ball is better than El Miz. | | | |
| Chirewa on 14:16 - Oct 11 with 858 views | itfcsuth |
| Chirewa on 11:42 - Oct 11 by itfcjoe |
The same was said last season about it being the right approach and we finished 11th in League One, the same was said when Hurst came in that these players were better than Downes and Dozzell and we finished bottom.
I can’t square up how our players get opportunities here - what can any of those on loan, or Humphreys do that will see them in our team next season? |
It could also be said that when we had a squad with the likes of Kenlock, Downes, Dozzell, Bishop & Lankester in the side that they also couldn't get the job done at this level.
I think the important thing right now is that we look like a side that belongs at the very top end of this division, and whilst that is the case there is no room to alter things.
The opportunities are more limited than they have ever been in recent times - but that is due to how good the first team is right now, you ultimately just have to be patient. | | | |
| Chirewa on 15:05 - Oct 11 with 792 views | itfcjoe |
| Chirewa on 14:16 - Oct 11 by itfcsuth |
It could also be said that when we had a squad with the likes of Kenlock, Downes, Dozzell, Bishop & Lankester in the side that they also couldn't get the job done at this level.
I think the important thing right now is that we look like a side that belongs at the very top end of this division, and whilst that is the case there is no room to alter things.
The opportunities are more limited than they have ever been in recent times - but that is due to how good the first team is right now, you ultimately just have to be patient. |
I don't think patience is going to get you anywhere, I just think there is basically not a pathway through - some fans will be ok with that and others won't be.
The mantra of "if you're good enough, you'll get through" hasn't been true for some time, when you look at any club that has brought players through from a Chelsea to a Crewe it takes a manager, or a club ethos, that has that either prioritised or foisted upon them.
I'm personally a bit disappointed with how the academy has been seemingly totally deprioritised and seen good players leaving upwards; others won't care; others will perform mental gymnastics as to why they do care but what club is doing is right.
Unless we are going to go up this year, and then establish ourselves as a top 6 club quickly in the Championship, then we need to ensure we are bringing players through or we are going to hit a bit of a wall - if we want to sell players for 8 figure fees from the Championship then the majority of them will be home grown players | |
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| Chirewa on 15:08 - Oct 11 with 782 views | jayessess |
| Chirewa on 12:06 - Oct 11 by xrayspecs |
What you also need to consider is how the game has changed over the last 5-10 years. It is faster, more athletic, with a greater focus on physical ability to perform. You only have to look at the profile of players McKenna has targeted this season. There is so much more sports science being used to measure performance levels.
It is harder now for 18 year olds to transition out of an Academy and straight into first team football, than it would have been when the likes of Dyer and Ambrose broke into the Town first team. A few players are able to step up, most though will need time to develop the physical side of their game. |
I don't see the evidence that changes to football in the last 5-10 years have made teenage footballers rarer. If anything it's the opposite, you see fewer and fewer 30+ players, especially at elite level.
Think there's a great reluctance to acknowledge the reality that our squad building over the last 2 seasons has been done mainly with the short term in mind and without much interest in the academy. It's understandable, there's not much point developing players in League One when you can't realise much value off them even if they're brilliant. We're looking at sure things not prospects as far as possible. But let's not pretend there's no trade off here or that it's all done according to some masterplan for the youth. |  |
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