| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party 13:56 - Apr 12 with 5178 views | tractordownsouth |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:27 - Apr 13 with 699 views | Herbivore |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:07 - Apr 13 by tractordownsouth |
That can be true while also recognising that not backing May's deal was a poor decision on JC's part. Labour would have looked like the ones respecting the referendum result and the Tories would have torn themselves to shreds. There probably wouldn't have been a general election, but even if there was it would have neutralised Brexit as an issue and thus removed one of the two main reasons (the other being Corbyn himself) for the Labour defeat in 2019.
Any worry about the Lib Dems eating into the Labour vote for facilitating leaving the EU would've been less of a concern because Brexit is much harder to reverse than it is to stop. I think Brexit is a disaster but I'm not clamouring for a referendum to rejoin because I don't think it's viable politically in the next decade at least. |
If Labour had supported May's deal, which didn't meet their own Brexit tests, they would have been toast. The majority of Labour voters supported remain, there was huge support amongst Labour voters to push for a referendum on any deal. The idea that they could have ignored all that, supported Brexit, won the red wall back whilst keeping all of the rest of their base happy is a pure fiction. |  |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:33 - Apr 13 with 667 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:24 - Apr 13 by Herbivore |
Most of that second paragraph is a complete rewriting of history. I'm seeing a lot of this from Corbyn supporters lately, few (if any) of whom were calling for a radically different position on Brexit from Labour in 2019. Most (if not all) supported Corbyn whipping his MPs to reject many of the Brexit options on the table. I don't remember a chorus of voices calling for Labour to adopt a Get Brexit Done style position ahead of the GE either.
Seeing you use language like "Remainiacs" is proper horseshoe stuff, you're adopting the language of the rabid right wingers because it's a stick to beat Starmer with. There's plenty to throw at Starmer without needing to rewrite history and side with the swivel-eyed loons. |
I’m a Remainer, no question about it. But I use Remainiacs to define the extreme Remainers.
I disagreed at the time with Corbyn and thought that we could be harder at pushing back on the referendum result and its legitimacy on moral grounds as much as anything. But I’ve accepted since that the polling numbers didn’t support that approach and that in the end it led to the worst possible result – gifting a hard Brexit and 5 more years of awful Tory rule.
Half of which was preferable to a Corbyn government for people like Mandelson and the Labour right who are now in charge as a result. |  |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:36 - Apr 13 with 647 views | HARRY10 |
It is absurd to talk of a 'soft brexit' - that is a valid as a 'bit pregnant' You are either in or out of the EU with all the inherent consequences.
The Tories won in 2019 for the greater part by having a leader who was willing to lie, lie and then lie again. To an ill informed populace who wanted to believe what he was telling them.
Much as with the PR nonsense - which has like brexit similarly become the promised land for the not too bright. A land where less accountability will somehow improve politics, rather than it inevitably seeing endless tawdry backroom deals away from voters.
Rather than call for another election the SNP agreed a deal with Greens so as to stay in power. One which has split their party. PR does not deliver better democracy it just means a handful of politicians decides who governs.
The real problem lies with voters. |  | | |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:39 - Apr 13 with 619 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:24 - Apr 13 by Herbivore |
Most of that second paragraph is a complete rewriting of history. I'm seeing a lot of this from Corbyn supporters lately, few (if any) of whom were calling for a radically different position on Brexit from Labour in 2019. Most (if not all) supported Corbyn whipping his MPs to reject many of the Brexit options on the table. I don't remember a chorus of voices calling for Labour to adopt a Get Brexit Done style position ahead of the GE either.
Seeing you use language like "Remainiacs" is proper horseshoe stuff, you're adopting the language of the rabid right wingers because it's a stick to beat Starmer with. There's plenty to throw at Starmer without needing to rewrite history and side with the swivel-eyed loons. |
He’s increasingly demonstrating a Trump-like approach to politics- denouncing mainstream media, establishment stick up conspiracies, and cult like defence of his man.
A shame as he seems a generally decent sort and otherwise interesting poster. | | | |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:41 - Apr 13 with 608 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:36 - Apr 13 by HARRY10 |
It is absurd to talk of a 'soft brexit' - that is a valid as a 'bit pregnant' You are either in or out of the EU with all the inherent consequences.
The Tories won in 2019 for the greater part by having a leader who was willing to lie, lie and then lie again. To an ill informed populace who wanted to believe what he was telling them.
Much as with the PR nonsense - which has like brexit similarly become the promised land for the not too bright. A land where less accountability will somehow improve politics, rather than it inevitably seeing endless tawdry backroom deals away from voters.
Rather than call for another election the SNP agreed a deal with Greens so as to stay in power. One which has split their party. PR does not deliver better democracy it just means a handful of politicians decides who governs.
The real problem lies with voters. |
Don’t be daft. The Norway or Norway Plus choices were legitimate as half-in/half-out options. And of course definitely not the best of both worlds, but would have avoided the worst of both worlds which we have now. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:51 - Apr 13 with 563 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:39 - Apr 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
He’s increasingly demonstrating a Trump-like approach to politics- denouncing mainstream media, establishment stick up conspiracies, and cult like defence of his man.
A shame as he seems a generally decent sort and otherwise interesting poster. |
I’ve generally made my points as detailed as possible and used proper sources. You don’t deal with the details and the evidence but you’d rather smear it as “Trump-like” or conspiracy theory stuff instead.
Thanks for the back-handed compliment but I won’t be reciprocating given you’ve been a particularly bad faith poster for several years. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 12:12 - Apr 13 with 514 views | tractordownsouth |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:27 - Apr 13 by Herbivore |
If Labour had supported May's deal, which didn't meet their own Brexit tests, they would have been toast. The majority of Labour voters supported remain, there was huge support amongst Labour voters to push for a referendum on any deal. The idea that they could have ignored all that, supported Brexit, won the red wall back whilst keeping all of the rest of their base happy is a pure fiction. |
I’m not saying they’d have won, they’d have just lost less badly because there wouldn’t have been an election with Brexit still unresolved. Brexit would have already happened so the issue would have been neutralised - the people’s vote stuff only gained significant traction post-2017 General Election when there seemed to be a viable route to it being stopped because of the parliamentary arithmetic and the lack of a majority for anything. Had Brexit already passed through parliament, it would’ve been much harder for a political party to credibly campaign to reverse it - even the Lib Dems have given up on it now.
The 2019 policy of a 2nd referendum was probably the least worst option in the circumstances because internal polling showed they’d have been down to 150 seats without it, but the issue should have been dealt with by then. May takes the biggest chunk of the blame out of any leaders in that parliament for the deal we’ve got but it wasn’t her political priority to make the Labour Party electorally successful so her strategy was understandably different, just equally as bad.
Ultimately Labour would probably never have won with JC in charge because he was too toxic but the whole Brexit strategy was a dog’s dinner. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 12:28 - Apr 13 with 479 views | HARRY10 |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:41 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
Don’t be daft. The Norway or Norway Plus choices were legitimate as half-in/half-out options. And of course definitely not the best of both worlds, but would have avoided the worst of both worlds which we have now. |
No. The assumption by some was the UK could make the choice. A sort of pick and mix part pregnant.
It assumed also that membership of EFTA and EEA were a given. The thought was the members would not agree to the UK joining.
How would freedom of movement as with EFTA membership play out to brexiters ? I suggest you also look up the rules regarding a customs union with EFTA and the EU. | | | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 13:33 - Apr 13 with 443 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 12:28 - Apr 13 by HARRY10 |
No. The assumption by some was the UK could make the choice. A sort of pick and mix part pregnant.
It assumed also that membership of EFTA and EEA were a given. The thought was the members would not agree to the UK joining.
How would freedom of movement as with EFTA membership play out to brexiters ? I suggest you also look up the rules regarding a customs union with EFTA and the EU. |
Well, it was always to give the mandate for the government to negotiate that deal. So of course there would be the EU’s own terms as part of the actual negotiation. Plus the existing countries’ terms in the Customs Union but not in the EU.
And there isn’t a single Brexit deal or non-deal that doesn’t p1ss off a large minority so what Brexiteers think of freedom of movement isn’t particularly relevant, even if that was part of joining the customs union. Which it isn’t. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 17:34 - Apr 13 with 364 views | HARRY10 |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 13:33 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
Well, it was always to give the mandate for the government to negotiate that deal. So of course there would be the EU’s own terms as part of the actual negotiation. Plus the existing countries’ terms in the Customs Union but not in the EU.
And there isn’t a single Brexit deal or non-deal that doesn’t p1ss off a large minority so what Brexiteers think of freedom of movement isn’t particularly relevant, even if that was part of joining the customs union. Which it isn’t. |
Unfortunately your first paragraph is incorrect, as it assumes that what you describe as the 'Norwegian Blue' was up for negotiation.
It was not, as to achieve what you suggest it would break EU law, hence it never got off the ground.
As to the second sentence in that paragraph, the customs union is part of the EU. What customs union are you imagining ? | | | |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 18:39 - Apr 13 with 335 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 17:34 - Apr 13 by HARRY10 |
Unfortunately your first paragraph is incorrect, as it assumes that what you describe as the 'Norwegian Blue' was up for negotiation.
It was not, as to achieve what you suggest it would break EU law, hence it never got off the ground.
As to the second sentence in that paragraph, the customs union is part of the EU. What customs union are you imagining ? |
It is possible to be a member of the customs union without being a member of the EU Harold. |  |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 18:40 - Apr 13 with 330 views | HARRY10 |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 18:39 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
It is possible to be a member of the customs union without being a member of the EU Harold. |
I am sure you would have checked this and much else before voting | | | |
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