| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party 13:56 - Apr 12 with 5180 views | tractordownsouth |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:29 - Apr 13 with 779 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:10 - Apr 13 by DJR |
One can criticise Corbyn for not being persuasive enough before the Brexit referendum, but he was never the most effective of campaigners, and I am sure I read something where Alan Johnson (in charge of the Labour campaign for Remain) preferred it that Corbyn had a low profile because of his general unpopularity.
Where I think Corbyn was right (and he got a lot of stick for this) was to accept the Brexit vote. In the end (because he was consensual), he was persuaded to go down the route of a second referendum, which to me as a Remainer was totally undemocratic.
Had that not been the route the opposition followed I am sure we would have ended up with a much better Brexit. Indeed, the free votes that May offered made this a possibility which in the end was scuppered by those MPs desperate for a second referendum.
The result has been a hard Brexit, with neither party willing to reopen the matter. And I don't think the blame for this lies with Corbyn. [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 8:19]
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Agree you certainly can’t blame him for the Brexit we’ve ended up with. May should have had the numbers to pass her withdrawal agreement, but the 44 Tories (ERG tw*ts) and DUPers who voted against sunk her. Although Labour could have changed that result, it’s unrealistic (or unfair?) to have expected them to ahead of MPs in May’s own party (not ideal of course and I wish they could behave in a more genuinely free manner). |  |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:39 - Apr 13 with 754 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:10 - Apr 13 by DJR |
One can criticise Corbyn for not being persuasive enough before the Brexit referendum, but he was never the most effective of campaigners, and I am sure I read something where Alan Johnson (in charge of the Labour campaign for Remain) preferred it that Corbyn had a low profile because of his general unpopularity.
Where I think Corbyn was right (and he got a lot of stick for this) was to accept the Brexit vote. In the end (because he was consensual), he was persuaded to go down the route of a second referendum, which to me as a Remainer was totally undemocratic.
Had that not been the route the opposition followed I am sure we would have ended up with a much better Brexit. Indeed, the free votes that May offered made this a possibility which in the end was scuppered by those MPs desperate for a second referendum.
The result has been a hard Brexit, with neither party willing to reopen the matter. And I don't think the blame for this lies with Corbyn. [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 8:19]
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Couple of points of order.
1. The opposite is true regarding Alan Johnson wanting Corbyn to keep a low profile. It was Corbyn’s inner circle that wanted him to have a low profile because they, like Corbyn, were lifelong Eurosceptics.
“ There is no doubt in my mind that at least three of his closest associates in the leader’s office were actively undermining the party’s efforts.”
“They wanted ‘Leave’ to succeed and at best Jeremy could not control them; at worst he was sympathetic to their views.
“Either way his performance in the campaign was risible and a taster for what to expect in a general election
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-jeremy-corbyn-cronies-blamed-for
2. Corbyn whipped his MP’s into not supporting May’s deal to keep us in the customs unions and have a softer Brexit
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/jeremy-corbyn-suffers-major-brexit-reb |  |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:48 - Apr 13 with 736 views | Herbivore |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:29 - Apr 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Agree you certainly can’t blame him for the Brexit we’ve ended up with. May should have had the numbers to pass her withdrawal agreement, but the 44 Tories (ERG tw*ts) and DUPers who voted against sunk her. Although Labour could have changed that result, it’s unrealistic (or unfair?) to have expected them to ahead of MPs in May’s own party (not ideal of course and I wish they could behave in a more genuinely free manner). |
Indeed. Labour couldn't very well have its Brexit deal tests in place and then vote for a deal that didn't meet those tests just because there was a chance we might end up with something worse. It was May's deal, May needed to get her own party and its allies in line. The issue is she created an impossible situation by putting down red lines that were either incompatible or made any kind of sensible deal impossible. Because of the sh!t show that's followed I feel like May gets something of an easy ride, a lot of the problems the economy faces now are directly traceable to the approach she took to Brexit. |  |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:02 - Apr 13 with 722 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:39 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Couple of points of order.
1. The opposite is true regarding Alan Johnson wanting Corbyn to keep a low profile. It was Corbyn’s inner circle that wanted him to have a low profile because they, like Corbyn, were lifelong Eurosceptics.
“ There is no doubt in my mind that at least three of his closest associates in the leader’s office were actively undermining the party’s efforts.”
“They wanted ‘Leave’ to succeed and at best Jeremy could not control them; at worst he was sympathetic to their views.
“Either way his performance in the campaign was risible and a taster for what to expect in a general election
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-jeremy-corbyn-cronies-blamed-for
2. Corbyn whipped his MP’s into not supporting May’s deal to keep us in the customs unions and have a softer Brexit
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/jeremy-corbyn-suffers-major-brexit-reb |
Another cherry-picking narrative.
Alan Johnson is fiercely anti-Corbyn – always has been. If he and the Labour Remain campaign wanted Corbyn involved but he declined or ignored them then there’d be a paper trail. But there isn’t – just vague accusations afterwards.
But accusations without the supporting evidence over Brexit and antisemitism were the two smear campaigns that the Labour right really put their backs into. Not to mention the People’s Vote that was as much an anti-Corbyn pressure group as an actual Remain campaign. |  |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:17 - Apr 13 with 690 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:02 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
Another cherry-picking narrative.
Alan Johnson is fiercely anti-Corbyn – always has been. If he and the Labour Remain campaign wanted Corbyn involved but he declined or ignored them then there’d be a paper trail. But there isn’t – just vague accusations afterwards.
But accusations without the supporting evidence over Brexit and antisemitism were the two smear campaigns that the Labour right really put their backs into. Not to mention the People’s Vote that was as much an anti-Corbyn pressure group as an actual Remain campaign. |
Not a cult. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:17 - Apr 13 with 695 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:17 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Not a cult. |
Not an answer. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:22 - Apr 13 with 679 views | DJR |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:39 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Couple of points of order.
1. The opposite is true regarding Alan Johnson wanting Corbyn to keep a low profile. It was Corbyn’s inner circle that wanted him to have a low profile because they, like Corbyn, were lifelong Eurosceptics.
“ There is no doubt in my mind that at least three of his closest associates in the leader’s office were actively undermining the party’s efforts.”
“They wanted ‘Leave’ to succeed and at best Jeremy could not control them; at worst he was sympathetic to their views.
“Either way his performance in the campaign was risible and a taster for what to expect in a general election
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-jeremy-corbyn-cronies-blamed-for
2. Corbyn whipped his MP’s into not supporting May’s deal to keep us in the customs unions and have a softer Brexit
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/jeremy-corbyn-suffers-major-brexit-reb |
I can't really see how either of those points of order are relevant. |  | | |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:23 - Apr 13 with 673 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:39 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Couple of points of order.
1. The opposite is true regarding Alan Johnson wanting Corbyn to keep a low profile. It was Corbyn’s inner circle that wanted him to have a low profile because they, like Corbyn, were lifelong Eurosceptics.
“ There is no doubt in my mind that at least three of his closest associates in the leader’s office were actively undermining the party’s efforts.”
“They wanted ‘Leave’ to succeed and at best Jeremy could not control them; at worst he was sympathetic to their views.
“Either way his performance in the campaign was risible and a taster for what to expect in a general election
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-jeremy-corbyn-cronies-blamed-for
2. Corbyn whipped his MP’s into not supporting May’s deal to keep us in the customs unions and have a softer Brexit
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/jeremy-corbyn-suffers-major-brexit-reb |
I take it that your archivist has failed to back up your smeary claim about me earlier in this thread.......again!!! |  |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:34 - Apr 13 with 653 views | DJR |
Just to clarify, it was these votes that I was talking about. Ken Clarke's proposal for a customs union was defeated by only 6 votes, but 12 Labour MPs, 10 members of the Chuka Umunna breakaway party and 1 Green MP voted against, and it looks like the Lib Dems abstained.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47726787 [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 9:38]
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:41 - Apr 13 with 620 views | Blueschev |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 08:10 - Apr 13 by DJR |
One can criticise Corbyn for not being persuasive enough before the Brexit referendum, but he was never the most effective of campaigners, and I am sure I read something where Alan Johnson (in charge of the Labour campaign for Remain) preferred it that Corbyn had a low profile because of his general unpopularity.
Where I think Corbyn was right (and he got a lot of stick for this) was to accept the Brexit vote. In the end (because he was consensual), he was persuaded to go down the route of a second referendum, which to me as a Remainer was totally undemocratic.
Had that not been the route the opposition followed I am sure we would have ended up with a much better Brexit. Indeed, the free votes that May offered made this a possibility which in the end was scuppered by those MPs desperate for a second referendum.
The result has been a hard Brexit, with neither party willing to reopen the matter. And I don't think the blame for this lies with Corbyn. [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 8:19]
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The "People's Vote" campaign had a huge impact on the 2019 election result. It was possibly the most short-sighted, damaging, self defeating and patronising campaign in British political history. But I'm sure now these same people control the Labour Party they'll be great at campaigning. [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 9:42]
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:45 - Apr 13 with 612 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:34 - Apr 13 by DJR |
Just to clarify, it was these votes that I was talking about. Ken Clarke's proposal for a customs union was defeated by only 6 votes, but 12 Labour MPs, 10 members of the Chuka Umunna breakaway party and 1 Green MP voted against, and it looks like the Lib Dems abstained.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47726787 [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 9:38]
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This is a good article with that Ken Clarke customs union proposal as the real sliding doors moment the ultra-Remainers screwed up totally. Not just in parliament to allow that compromise deal but because it was still the best way forward after that without handing an entire election and a hard Brexit to Johnson.
“As a movement to stop Brexit, Continuity Remain was a disastrous failure. As an anti-Labour wrecking operation to facilitate hard-right Tories, it was an outstanding success.”
https://jacobin.com/2019/12/remainers-brexit-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-boris-jo | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:13 - Apr 13 with 590 views | Herbivore |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:41 - Apr 13 by Blueschev |
The "People's Vote" campaign had a huge impact on the 2019 election result. It was possibly the most short-sighted, damaging, self defeating and patronising campaign in British political history. But I'm sure now these same people control the Labour Party they'll be great at campaigning. [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 9:42]
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I think that narrative is too simplistic. It ignores the fact that a significant majority of Labour voters supported both remain and a second referendum. If they had pivoted towards a May style deal with some extra bits bolted on then they would have lost voters from different demographics. Corbyn was also not popular in the red wall regardless of the Brexit position, their majorities in many red wall seats were greatly reduced in 2017 when the party's Brexit position wasn't really an issue. It's true to say it was easier for the Tories to have a simplistic Get Brexit Done position and that it was was harder for Labour to position themselves on Brexit, but I feel you are really oversimplifying the issue and ignoring a lot of context. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:14 - Apr 13 with 588 views | Herbivore |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:02 - Apr 13 by Swansea_Blue |
This could be a long thread as there were 470odd amendments tabled at HoC committee stage alone  .
On the whole the 'blame' (or 'credit' for some strange people) for Brexit and the type of brexit we got lies squarely at the door of the Conservative party. I don't see how it can be any other way. It's their supporting media that laid the groundwork stirring up xenophobic and overtly anti-EU sentiment (including by Boris Johnson himself). It was their manifesto commitment to hold a referendum under Cameron. They were in power throughout the whole withdrawal process.
It seems a common feature of the Tories themselves and people defending them to always look to shift the blame though - for everything. Brexit, state of our public services, immigration, you name it. 13 years of failure and running the country down and it's everyone else's fault, especially if they're 'woke' or not white or foreign. |
This. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:20 - Apr 13 with 581 views | Blueschev |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:13 - Apr 13 by Herbivore |
I think that narrative is too simplistic. It ignores the fact that a significant majority of Labour voters supported both remain and a second referendum. If they had pivoted towards a May style deal with some extra bits bolted on then they would have lost voters from different demographics. Corbyn was also not popular in the red wall regardless of the Brexit position, their majorities in many red wall seats were greatly reduced in 2017 when the party's Brexit position wasn't really an issue. It's true to say it was easier for the Tories to have a simplistic Get Brexit Done position and that it was was harder for Labour to position themselves on Brexit, but I feel you are really oversimplifying the issue and ignoring a lot of context. |
I'm not saying it was the main cause of the 2019 result, but it was certainly a significant factor. "People's vote", I imagine that went down really well in the so called "red wall" seats. It was a massive own goal. | | | |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:23 - Apr 13 with 580 views | giant_stow |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:13 - Apr 13 by Herbivore |
I think that narrative is too simplistic. It ignores the fact that a significant majority of Labour voters supported both remain and a second referendum. If they had pivoted towards a May style deal with some extra bits bolted on then they would have lost voters from different demographics. Corbyn was also not popular in the red wall regardless of the Brexit position, their majorities in many red wall seats were greatly reduced in 2017 when the party's Brexit position wasn't really an issue. It's true to say it was easier for the Tories to have a simplistic Get Brexit Done position and that it was was harder for Labour to position themselves on Brexit, but I feel you are really oversimplifying the issue and ignoring a lot of context. |
There's a fair old bit of rewriting history going on in this thread. For one thing, the middle ground options of customs unions etc were never going to solve anything - would the heard leavers really have settled for being 'rule-takers'? Doubt it. Did Jez *have* to agree to the General election he lost? Could the brexit result have been different with a more positive argument based on the benefits of EU membership, led by Labour? Maybe. Were the vast majority of Labour supporters who were pro-remain properly represented by the party leadership in the brexit campaign? No, not even nearly. [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 10:24]
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:29 - Apr 13 with 573 views | Herbivore |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:20 - Apr 13 by Blueschev |
I'm not saying it was the main cause of the 2019 result, but it was certainly a significant factor. "People's vote", I imagine that went down really well in the so called "red wall" seats. It was a massive own goal. |
The red wall was crumbling anyway and there was no obvious position Labour could adopt to win over the ardent Brexiteers in those red wall seats. The People's Vote campaign was also entirely separate from Labour and their policy on Brexit. It was led by Change UK, Lib Dems, and some of the other opposition parties. Genuinely think there's a fair bit of rewriting going on here. As another poster has pointed out, a GE didn't even have to happen in 2019, it happened because Corbyn allowed it to happen. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:40 - Apr 13 with 556 views | DJR |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:45 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
This is a good article with that Ken Clarke customs union proposal as the real sliding doors moment the ultra-Remainers screwed up totally. Not just in parliament to allow that compromise deal but because it was still the best way forward after that without handing an entire election and a hard Brexit to Johnson.
“As a movement to stop Brexit, Continuity Remain was a disastrous failure. As an anti-Labour wrecking operation to facilitate hard-right Tories, it was an outstanding success.”
https://jacobin.com/2019/12/remainers-brexit-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-boris-jo |
You can't imagine such an article appearing in the media in this country. | | | |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:42 - Apr 13 with 549 views | DJR |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:02 - Apr 13 by Swansea_Blue |
This could be a long thread as there were 470odd amendments tabled at HoC committee stage alone .
On the whole the 'blame' (or 'credit' for some strange people) for Brexit and the type of brexit we got lies squarely at the door of the Conservative party. I don't see how it can be any other way. It's their supporting media that laid the groundwork stirring up xenophobic and overtly anti-EU sentiment (including by Boris Johnson himself). It was their manifesto commitment to hold a referendum under Cameron. They were in power throughout the whole withdrawal process.
It seems a common feature of the Tories themselves and people defending them to always look to shift the blame though - for everything. Brexit, state of our public services, immigration, you name it. 13 years of failure and running the country down and it's everyone else's fault, especially if they're 'woke' or not white or foreign. |
Apologies. It was my response to your post which prompted a shift to talking about Brexit.
But that subject has really been done to death. | | | |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:57 - Apr 13 with 528 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:02 - Apr 13 by Swansea_Blue |
This could be a long thread as there were 470odd amendments tabled at HoC committee stage alone .
On the whole the 'blame' (or 'credit' for some strange people) for Brexit and the type of brexit we got lies squarely at the door of the Conservative party. I don't see how it can be any other way. It's their supporting media that laid the groundwork stirring up xenophobic and overtly anti-EU sentiment (including by Boris Johnson himself). It was their manifesto commitment to hold a referendum under Cameron. They were in power throughout the whole withdrawal process.
It seems a common feature of the Tories themselves and people defending them to always look to shift the blame though - for everything. Brexit, state of our public services, immigration, you name it. 13 years of failure and running the country down and it's everyone else's fault, especially if they're 'woke' or not white or foreign. |
I don’t disagree that the Tories have used Brexit and anti-EU/anti-immigrant rhetoric for their own cynical party ambitions. Even though Labour and LibDems entertained this too (wasn’t it even the LibDems that first proposed an EU referendum?), the Tory party are certainly the driver in this as soon as they embraced the UKIP position almost without reservation. And as the ruling party too it was always going to turn into an even worse politicised battleground after that.
But I think the “Remainiac” shift post 2017 is certainly a big part of the blame for the type of Brexit and government we now have. The Remain movement went from largely accepting the referendum result and looking for the soft Brexit options that would reflect the narrow winning margin on an advisory question to pushing for another referendum at best or just reversing the decision like the Lib Dems at worst.
The polling numbers never supported that approach. They gambled and they failed. But gifted another 5 years of awful Tory rule and a hard Brexit instead. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:06 - Apr 13 with 506 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:23 - Apr 13 by giant_stow |
There's a fair old bit of rewriting history going on in this thread. For one thing, the middle ground options of customs unions etc were never going to solve anything - would the heard leavers really have settled for being 'rule-takers'? Doubt it. Did Jez *have* to agree to the General election he lost? Could the brexit result have been different with a more positive argument based on the benefits of EU membership, led by Labour? Maybe. Were the vast majority of Labour supporters who were pro-remain properly represented by the party leadership in the brexit campaign? No, not even nearly. [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 10:24]
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Kenneth Clarke’s customs union deal was the closest parliament got to an alternative to a hard Brexit. It also would have had popular support, given it would “Get Brexit Done” and it was acceptable to the many Remainers who thought the referendum result couldn’t be overturned so it was a case of ensuring the damage was minimized. As we’ve seen since and especially with Northern Ireland, that has proven correct.
The people who disagreed and stopped it were the extreme Remainers and extreme Brexiteers. For them, it was more about politics for its own sake – certainly not pragmatism. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:07 - Apr 13 with 506 views | tractordownsouth |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 09:41 - Apr 13 by Blueschev |
The "People's Vote" campaign had a huge impact on the 2019 election result. It was possibly the most short-sighted, damaging, self defeating and patronising campaign in British political history. But I'm sure now these same people control the Labour Party they'll be great at campaigning. [Post edited 13 Apr 2023 9:42]
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That can be true while also recognising that not backing May's deal was a poor decision on JC's part. Labour would have looked like the ones respecting the referendum result and the Tories would have torn themselves to shreds. There probably wouldn't have been a general election, but even if there was it would have neutralised Brexit as an issue and thus removed one of the two main reasons (the other being Corbyn himself) for the Labour defeat in 2019.
Any worry about the Lib Dems eating into the Labour vote for facilitating leaving the EU would've been less of a concern because Brexit is much harder to reverse than it is to stop. I think Brexit is a disaster but I'm not clamouring for a referendum to rejoin because I don't think it's viable politically in the next decade at least. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:14 - Apr 13 with 498 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:40 - Apr 13 by DJR |
You can't imagine such an article appearing in the media in this country. |
Indeed.
You can add our media (and not just the usual Mail/Express suspects) to the Brexit blame. They’re just not fit for purpose in a democracy. Especially our FPTP, two-party “democracy” that is already deeply insufficient at dealing with reality and finding real solutions.
The absence of serious, professional political journalism has given us the current barren political landscape and the long cycle of government failure. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:24 - Apr 13 with 489 views | Herbivore |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 10:57 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
I don’t disagree that the Tories have used Brexit and anti-EU/anti-immigrant rhetoric for their own cynical party ambitions. Even though Labour and LibDems entertained this too (wasn’t it even the LibDems that first proposed an EU referendum?), the Tory party are certainly the driver in this as soon as they embraced the UKIP position almost without reservation. And as the ruling party too it was always going to turn into an even worse politicised battleground after that.
But I think the “Remainiac” shift post 2017 is certainly a big part of the blame for the type of Brexit and government we now have. The Remain movement went from largely accepting the referendum result and looking for the soft Brexit options that would reflect the narrow winning margin on an advisory question to pushing for another referendum at best or just reversing the decision like the Lib Dems at worst.
The polling numbers never supported that approach. They gambled and they failed. But gifted another 5 years of awful Tory rule and a hard Brexit instead. |
Most of that second paragraph is a complete rewriting of history. I'm seeing a lot of this from Corbyn supporters lately, few (if any) of whom were calling for a radically different position on Brexit from Labour in 2019. Most (if not all) supported Corbyn whipping his MPs to reject many of the Brexit options on the table. I don't remember a chorus of voices calling for Labour to adopt a Get Brexit Done style position ahead of the GE either.
Seeing you use language like "Remainiacs" is proper horseshoe stuff, you're adopting the language of the rabid right wingers because it's a stick to beat Starmer with. There's plenty to throw at Starmer without needing to rewrite history and side with the swivel-eyed loons. | |
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| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:25 - Apr 13 with 483 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another delightful individual in the Tory Party on 11:07 - Apr 13 by tractordownsouth |
That can be true while also recognising that not backing May's deal was a poor decision on JC's part. Labour would have looked like the ones respecting the referendum result and the Tories would have torn themselves to shreds. There probably wouldn't have been a general election, but even if there was it would have neutralised Brexit as an issue and thus removed one of the two main reasons (the other being Corbyn himself) for the Labour defeat in 2019.
Any worry about the Lib Dems eating into the Labour vote for facilitating leaving the EU would've been less of a concern because Brexit is much harder to reverse than it is to stop. I think Brexit is a disaster but I'm not clamouring for a referendum to rejoin because I don't think it's viable politically in the next decade at least. |
I think that’s fairly delusional considering Brexit was also a part of stymieing and criticising the Labour leadership for many within the PLP and even outside the party with the wider Remain movement pushed by Mandelson, Campbell, Watson, Change UK etc. Not to mention Swinson and the LibDems, but all of them were attacking Labour as much if not more than the Tories on Brexit.
Like the antisemitism smears, this wasn’t actually a legitimate reflection on reality or the Labour leadership’s position. Corbyn’s position on Brexit was always more pragmatic and reflective of the reality around the country than the much more extreme Remainiac or Brexiteer voices that were too often allowed to define the debate. | |
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