| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:16 - Aug 31 with 1282 views | J2BLUE |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:08 - Aug 31 by leitrimblue |
If her or her family members wish to pay the full reparations then perhaps we could begin to forgive and forget. Until then she and all those families whose wealth was achieved through the slavery, torture and humiliation of others should be reminded every day where their wealth came from |
How much wealth is wealth? If people have millions then maybe. What if people have 50k in the bank and own a house? How are you going to work out what percentage came from ancestors having slaves?
What's a realistic reparation? The one the UK is being told it owes is ridiculous. $22 trillion isn't it? |  |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:33 - Aug 31 with 1239 views | Kievthegreat |
I'd also recommend reading this (is linked in the main article too):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/3k9u8lh178/Searching_for_my_slave_roots
It tracks the author of this work as he traced his family history back to slave plantations owned and ran by the ancestors of Antoinette Sandbach.
This is prior to his PHD which is what is causing the current controversy.. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:38 - Aug 31 with 1216 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:33 - Aug 31 by Kievthegreat |
I'd also recommend reading this (is linked in the main article too):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/3k9u8lh178/Searching_for_my_slave_roots
It tracks the author of this work as he traced his family history back to slave plantations owned and ran by the ancestors of Antoinette Sandbach.
This is prior to his PHD which is what is causing the current controversy.. |
An interesting fact is that in Africa, in those times, some tribes actively worked to supply slaves from other tribes to the slavers. Will they be paying reparations too?
I don;t wish to demean the whole issue for a moment. The social and financial positions of certain demographics and races is still, to this day, impacted directly by this history. But the idea of pinning people for things done by ancestors is simply immoral and completely impractical.
That said, those who are plainly sitting on a pot of gold clearly generated from slavery really ought to consider putting large philanthropic payments into things which benefit the communities and demographics that have been disadvantaged. And should be pressured to do so. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:55 - Aug 31 with 1197 views | leitrimblue |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:16 - Aug 31 by J2BLUE |
How much wealth is wealth? If people have millions then maybe. What if people have 50k in the bank and own a house? How are you going to work out what percentage came from ancestors having slaves?
What's a realistic reparation? The one the UK is being told it owes is ridiculous. $22 trillion isn't it? |
Any wealth created from slavery should be treated the same as the proceeds of crime.
The UK,s ruling class, Royal family etc made billions out of slavery, most of this wealth is still held in property etc. Like any other wealth received from the proceeds of crime it should be confiscated. |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:56 - Aug 31 with 1191 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:55 - Aug 31 by leitrimblue |
Any wealth created from slavery should be treated the same as the proceeds of crime.
The UK,s ruling class, Royal family etc made billions out of slavery, most of this wealth is still held in property etc. Like any other wealth received from the proceeds of crime it should be confiscated. |
Impossible to properly divide it for the most part.
Investment and management over many years, sales, resales, etc etc. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:59 - Aug 31 with 1158 views | Herbivore |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:38 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
An interesting fact is that in Africa, in those times, some tribes actively worked to supply slaves from other tribes to the slavers. Will they be paying reparations too?
I don;t wish to demean the whole issue for a moment. The social and financial positions of certain demographics and races is still, to this day, impacted directly by this history. But the idea of pinning people for things done by ancestors is simply immoral and completely impractical.
That said, those who are plainly sitting on a pot of gold clearly generated from slavery really ought to consider putting large philanthropic payments into things which benefit the communities and demographics that have been disadvantaged. And should be pressured to do so. |
Not sure giving back to people you've stolen from is genuine philanthropy. What are your views on Antoinette Sandbach, now you're aware that she continues to profit from an estate that was originally purchased by her slaver ancestor? |  |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:01 - Aug 31 with 1155 views | leitrimblue |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:56 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Impossible to properly divide it for the most part.
Investment and management over many years, sales, resales, etc etc. |
Don't worry too much Redrick, sure we can sort something out | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:04 - Aug 31 with 1146 views | J2BLUE |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:55 - Aug 31 by leitrimblue |
Any wealth created from slavery should be treated the same as the proceeds of crime.
The UK,s ruling class, Royal family etc made billions out of slavery, most of this wealth is still held in property etc. Like any other wealth received from the proceeds of crime it should be confiscated. |
Again though, how would you even begin to put a number on it? It's probably easier in cases like the royals where they still have massive wealth but how do you do it for the average person? | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:10 - Aug 31 with 1128 views | leitrimblue |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:04 - Aug 31 by J2BLUE |
Again though, how would you even begin to put a number on it? It's probably easier in cases like the royals where they still have massive wealth but how do you do it for the average person? |
Anyone with a calculated wealth of say perhaps a couple of hundred thousand or so could be let off the financial payment an can instead pay it back through 10, 000 hours of community service?  | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:24 - Aug 31 with 1114 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:01 - Aug 31 by leitrimblue |
Don't worry too much Redrick, sure we can sort something out |
How about we start with the assumption that she gives up 100% of everything, and then the burden of proof is on her to make a case for keeping anything?
Because that is analogous to how it worked with the slaves receiving anything for their forced labour. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:28 - Aug 31 with 1105 views | Herbivore |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:04 - Aug 31 by J2BLUE |
Again though, how would you even begin to put a number on it? It's probably easier in cases like the royals where they still have massive wealth but how do you do it for the average person? |
We need to findamentally redistribute everything if we're serious about creating a fair society. It's not just at an individual level, the global south has been absolutely pillaged and destroyed by the global north over the past 500 years or so, and as a reward they will bear the brunt of climate change that is largely not their fault. There needs to be a massive realignment and a move to base social relations on respect and fairness rather than seeing everything as being about the endless need to 'create', hoard, and protect wealth for the top few percent. | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:38 - Aug 31 with 1071 views | leitrimblue |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 11:11 - Aug 31 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The point is that a huge estate of land and other wealth was built up by the family, paid for by abducted people being worked to death thousands of miles from their country of birth.
And that she continues to profit from that estate.
Now, if you are right that she shouldn't be punished for her ancestors' actions, doesn't it also follow that she shouldn't benefit from them, either?
Returning the wealth to the descendents of those who worked for it isn't punishment, is it?
She has benefited from it her entire life, but doesn't deserve it and certainly didn't earn that wealth.
Her ancestors also benefited from it during their lifetimes, but didn't deserve to be rewarded for kidnapping, abuse, exploitation, enslavement, punishment beatings, forced starving and deaths of unpaid workers, and certainly weren't the ones who earned that wealth.
See also the Highland Clearances and the Enclosure Acts. White Working Class Britain's should be working with the global reparations movement to get their share of what was stolen from them, but instead have been gaslit into thinking that of wealth accumulated by slave exploitation is returned to the families of those who worked for it, that they are somehow losing out.
When, instead, we should be fighting for the restoration of common land and reparations from the families of those who exploited their ancestors. |
See also the genocidal famine and land grab by the same English ruling class in Ireland. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:39 - Aug 31 with 1069 views | soupytwist |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:38 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
An interesting fact is that in Africa, in those times, some tribes actively worked to supply slaves from other tribes to the slavers. Will they be paying reparations too?
I don;t wish to demean the whole issue for a moment. The social and financial positions of certain demographics and races is still, to this day, impacted directly by this history. But the idea of pinning people for things done by ancestors is simply immoral and completely impractical.
That said, those who are plainly sitting on a pot of gold clearly generated from slavery really ought to consider putting large philanthropic payments into things which benefit the communities and demographics that have been disadvantaged. And should be pressured to do so. |
Yes, there are grassroots campaigns in West African countries demanding that the descendants of those who were complicit in supplying slaves to Europeans make amends.
At the risk of sounding like the podcast's publicist the recent episode of Empire podcast with Kris Manjapra mentions it.
And just because others are not as prepared to contemplate these things doesn't mean we shouldn't consider or implement them. Would be nice to be in the vanguard of doing the right thing. [Post edited 31 Aug 2023 13:46]
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:52 - Aug 31 with 1036 views | brazil1982 |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:55 - Aug 31 by leitrimblue |
Any wealth created from slavery should be treated the same as the proceeds of crime.
The UK,s ruling class, Royal family etc made billions out of slavery, most of this wealth is still held in property etc. Like any other wealth received from the proceeds of crime it should be confiscated. |
How far should this go back? All countries in the world would have to be considered; Arab nations who traded more slaves than the trans-Atlantic trade and castrated the captured African male slaves. Africans sold Africans to the slave trade. A million Europeans were captured by the Barbery pirates. Where do we end? |  | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:57 - Aug 31 with 1010 views | Herbivore |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:52 - Aug 31 by brazil1982 |
How far should this go back? All countries in the world would have to be considered; Arab nations who traded more slaves than the trans-Atlantic trade and castrated the captured African male slaves. Africans sold Africans to the slave trade. A million Europeans were captured by the Barbery pirates. Where do we end? |
With a wholesale redistribution of resources and a complete restructuring of international relations. | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:01 - Aug 31 with 992 views | leitrimblue |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:52 - Aug 31 by brazil1982 |
How far should this go back? All countries in the world would have to be considered; Arab nations who traded more slaves than the trans-Atlantic trade and castrated the captured African male slaves. Africans sold Africans to the slave trade. A million Europeans were captured by the Barbery pirates. Where do we end? |
All wealth received from slavery should be confiscated/returned. Think it's easy enough to work out. You could start with the easy ones like the royals an take it from there | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:04 - Aug 31 with 976 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 12:59 - Aug 31 by Herbivore |
Not sure giving back to people you've stolen from is genuine philanthropy. What are your views on Antoinette Sandbach, now you're aware that she continues to profit from an estate that was originally purchased by her slaver ancestor? |
They didn't steal it.
They weren't even alive. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:06 - Aug 31 with 971 views | Herbivore |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:04 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
They didn't steal it.
They weren't even alive. |
Property is theft. | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:07 - Aug 31 with 967 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:01 - Aug 31 by leitrimblue |
All wealth received from slavery should be confiscated/returned. Think it's easy enough to work out. You could start with the easy ones like the royals an take it from there |
Its incredibly difficult. Some may be clearer than others. Imagine a country estate, which was bought in the 1700s and still in the family, but was run down, went through insolvency, was brought back to life partly due to efforts of an owner, and partly through marriage to someone with some new money. And then progressed through excellent management and modern investment. And is then passed on through inheritance, before being split following a divorce. Etc etc. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:09 - Aug 31 with 943 views | soupytwist |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 13:52 - Aug 31 by brazil1982 |
How far should this go back? All countries in the world would have to be considered; Arab nations who traded more slaves than the trans-Atlantic trade and castrated the captured African male slaves. Africans sold Africans to the slave trade. A million Europeans were captured by the Barbery pirates. Where do we end? |
The transatlantic slave trade and the use of slavery to enrich those involved in the plantations of the Caribbean and southern United States are relatively recent history. Their pernicious impact is still evident in the countries involved thanks to the systems of government, commerce and wider society they established or embedded.
Other examples, such as some of those you have quoted, don't have the same long-standing impact or involve the same numbers (not that there's a threshold under which slavery is acceptable). In some cases, the conditions of the slavery have important differences. In the case of the Barbary pirates the practice was ended by military intervention by various European countries. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:09 - Aug 31 with 936 views | leitrimblue |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:07 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Its incredibly difficult. Some may be clearer than others. Imagine a country estate, which was bought in the 1700s and still in the family, but was run down, went through insolvency, was brought back to life partly due to efforts of an owner, and partly through marriage to someone with some new money. And then progressed through excellent management and modern investment. And is then passed on through inheritance, before being split following a divorce. Etc etc. |
I'm sure there will be a few awkward cases but that is no excuse not to attempt to pay reparations. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:10 - Aug 31 with 933 views | Herbivore |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:07 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Its incredibly difficult. Some may be clearer than others. Imagine a country estate, which was bought in the 1700s and still in the family, but was run down, went through insolvency, was brought back to life partly due to efforts of an owner, and partly through marriage to someone with some new money. And then progressed through excellent management and modern investment. And is then passed on through inheritance, before being split following a divorce. Etc etc. |
That strikes me as pretty clear cut, the family got the estate through the proceeds of slavery and they still own it. I don't really care if it got a bit run down and they then tarted it up again, that's all just noise. | |
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| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:10 - Aug 31 with 931 views | soupytwist |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:07 - Aug 31 by redrickstuhaart |
Its incredibly difficult. Some may be clearer than others. Imagine a country estate, which was bought in the 1700s and still in the family, but was run down, went through insolvency, was brought back to life partly due to efforts of an owner, and partly through marriage to someone with some new money. And then progressed through excellent management and modern investment. And is then passed on through inheritance, before being split following a divorce. Etc etc. |
I'd be genuinely interested to see an example of that. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:56 - Aug 31 with 889 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:10 - Aug 31 by Herbivore |
That strikes me as pretty clear cut, the family got the estate through the proceeds of slavery and they still own it. I don't really care if it got a bit run down and they then tarted it up again, that's all just noise. |
Thats just wrong though. The value is the work of people who have put money into it. And its the lodge , with 1/4 acre is now owned by the ex wife, who needs somewhere to live with her 4 kids and has a divorce settlement based on it.
The rest of the estate has been brought back to a positive value though 25 years of work and investment by the current main owner, who has mortgaged himself to the hilt to restore it and bring it back to glory and is only now starting to see a profit.
Its not simple at all. | | | |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:58 - Aug 31 with 888 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Apparently this MP's ancestors were slave owners on 14:10 - Aug 31 by soupytwist |
I'd be genuinely interested to see an example of that. |
Its a deliberate amalgamation fo just a few of the problems involved in tracing money and ownership back through time.
The courts have enough difficulty figuring out how much of a company should be shared with a divorcing spouse, or who owns how much of a property when someone paid the mortgage for five years, or spent two years doing it up without being on the title etc. | | | |
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