| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza 08:17 - Oct 22 with 7753 views | DJR |
It seems to me that, following the controversy over responsibility for the hospital attack, media focus in this country (and seemingly also on this board) has moved away from the plight of civilians in Gaza.
It also appears to be the case that allowing 20 lorries into Gaza is somehow thought to ease the conscience of Western nations.
And what about the situation of foreign nationals in Gaza who are no longer talked about?
And, leaving aside the question of collective punishment (itself a war crime), I am not sure I have heard any claims in this country that attacks on civilians are themselves war crimes.
President Zelensky has just called an attack by Russia on a civilian building a war crime but when it came to, say, the attack on a church in Gaza a couple of days ago, sheltering Muslims and Christians and killing 16 people, there was very little media coverage, and to my knowledge no claims that it was a war crime.
Sadly, these days it is only bodies like the UN and aid organisations that are raising concerns.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2023 12:35]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 09:30 - Oct 22 with 4973 views | DJR |
What makes things even worse is that civilians are being killed in the supposedly safe areas to the south of Gaza City.
This is a case in point but doesn't seem to have been widely reported.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/devastated-british-doctor-loses-35-3124
Just think what the reaction in the West would be if Russia or Syria were doing this. | | | |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 09:38 - Oct 22 with 4924 views | WeWereZombies |
I'm listening to 'Broadcasting House' at the moment and there is a lead item on the plight of civilians in Gaza, I think the more responsible media outlets are maintaining focus (and sobering listening it is too.) I guess this is a time when rational dialogue is paramount and ill considered action is deplorable, and that includes everyone and how we read, discuss and digest what is transmitted to us.
Certainly a mere twenty trucks to, say, an isolated Greater Manchester would not provoke anything other than outrage. Distance and the way a problem is framed can dull the senses.
James Cleverly was reported to be working on the protection of foreign nationals (which, of course, includes the Israeli hostages) but his focus has to be United Kingdom citizens, that's his job. I'm not on Twitter but I can get the latest from the FCO via Google:
Sunak does seem to be doing a bit more than just participated whilst nodding along to Biden now but I worry that, like Abbas, he is in danger of becoming, for want of a better term, a bit part player:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67166963 |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 09:52 - Oct 22 with 4873 views | Darth_Koont |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 09:30 - Oct 22 by DJR |
What makes things even worse is that civilians are being killed in the supposedly safe areas to the south of Gaza City.
This is a case in point but doesn't seem to have been widely reported.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/devastated-british-doctor-loses-35-3124
Just think what the reaction in the West would be if Russia or Syria were doing this. |
Indeed. Utterly shameful of our government to be giving such overt support and cover for this escalation and its ongoing war crimes.
A ceasefire, de-escalation and the opportunity for dialogue is the answer for both the Israeli and Palestinian civilians — now and for any future peaceful and lasting resolution. Legitimising an extremist retaliation from an extremist regime just takes that further and further away.
It’s disgusting really. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:27 - Oct 22 with 4810 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
No idea which thread to put this in but here will do.
'The Palestinian ambassador to the UK has criticised those attending pro-Palestinian demonstrations in order to intimidate the Jewish community, saying they should shut up.
On Sky News, Husam Zomlot was asked about people attending rallies carrying Hamas flags or glorifying the attacks on 7 October, and said:
This is abhorrent, unacceptable. Those people hijack our cause for their own twisted logic.
The Jewish people have nothing to do with it. This is not a religious conflict. Many of those who demonstrated for Palestine yesterday were Jews. Many of those strong voices are the Jewish people defending us.
Those who have hate in their hearts for Jews would have hate in their hearts for Muslims and Christians, we have nothing to do with them and they should shut up.' |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:32 - Oct 22 with 4778 views | WeWereZombies |
Neither you nor I can expect to see into the collective minds of Hamas and their backers, who might have a collection of different aims - some elements in Hamas no doubt saw the massacre earlier this month as revenge, others might have seen it as a tactic to draw Israel into war in the, hopefully mistaken belief that Arab nations would join on their side, the militant regime in charge of Iran may have wanted to unsettle Saudi Arabia, young Hamas commanders may just have wanted to keep the supply of Palestinians being born with a reason to hate Israel stoked...there are no good reasons obviously.
But before you can ask what the outcome is I think you have to ask,, at which point in time ? Because, as the article makes clear, an Israeli military victory will not be the end of things. Even an externally imposed two state solution would have disputes that rumbled on for decades. | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:00 - Oct 22 with 4713 views | Radlett_blue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:32 - Oct 22 by WeWereZombies |
Neither you nor I can expect to see into the collective minds of Hamas and their backers, who might have a collection of different aims - some elements in Hamas no doubt saw the massacre earlier this month as revenge, others might have seen it as a tactic to draw Israel into war in the, hopefully mistaken belief that Arab nations would join on their side, the militant regime in charge of Iran may have wanted to unsettle Saudi Arabia, young Hamas commanders may just have wanted to keep the supply of Palestinians being born with a reason to hate Israel stoked...there are no good reasons obviously.
But before you can ask what the outcome is I think you have to ask,, at which point in time ? Because, as the article makes clear, an Israeli military victory will not be the end of things. Even an externally imposed two state solution would have disputes that rumbled on for decades. |
Politics in the Middle East have moved on from a straight Arab - Israeli conflict. Even the Saudis are now entering relations with Israel, although this may also be part of the bigger face-off between the Shia champion Iran (who sponsor Hams & Hezbollah) & the Sunni Saudi Arabia. However, the Palestinian question has been getting less attention & I think the attacks on Israel were a desperate throw of the dice by Hamas to escalate the situation & drag in other countries, by provoking an extreme response from IsraEL. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:03 - Oct 22 with 4708 views | DJR |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 09:38 - Oct 22 by WeWereZombies |
I'm listening to 'Broadcasting House' at the moment and there is a lead item on the plight of civilians in Gaza, I think the more responsible media outlets are maintaining focus (and sobering listening it is too.) I guess this is a time when rational dialogue is paramount and ill considered action is deplorable, and that includes everyone and how we read, discuss and digest what is transmitted to us.
Certainly a mere twenty trucks to, say, an isolated Greater Manchester would not provoke anything other than outrage. Distance and the way a problem is framed can dull the senses.
James Cleverly was reported to be working on the protection of foreign nationals (which, of course, includes the Israeli hostages) but his focus has to be United Kingdom citizens, that's his job. I'm not on Twitter but I can get the latest from the FCO via Google:
Sunak does seem to be doing a bit more than just participated whilst nodding along to Biden now but I worry that, like Abbas, he is in danger of becoming, for want of a better term, a bit part player:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67166963 |
The problem though is that Israel doesn't seem to be interested in the fate of foreign nationals (leaving aside hostages) because it has not heeded calls to allow the opening of the border at Rafah, despite foreign nationals being urged to go there.
This from a week ago.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/plan-to-let-canadians-and-other-foreigners
[Post edited 22 Oct 2023 11:22]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:19 - Oct 22 with 4664 views | Guthrum |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:27 - Oct 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
No idea which thread to put this in but here will do.
'The Palestinian ambassador to the UK has criticised those attending pro-Palestinian demonstrations in order to intimidate the Jewish community, saying they should shut up.
On Sky News, Husam Zomlot was asked about people attending rallies carrying Hamas flags or glorifying the attacks on 7 October, and said:
This is abhorrent, unacceptable. Those people hijack our cause for their own twisted logic.
The Jewish people have nothing to do with it. This is not a religious conflict. Many of those who demonstrated for Palestine yesterday were Jews. Many of those strong voices are the Jewish people defending us.
Those who have hate in their hearts for Jews would have hate in their hearts for Muslims and Christians, we have nothing to do with them and they should shut up.' |
He is presumably from the Palestinian Authority and therefore Fatah. They utterly hate Hamas.
The October 7th attacks have severely complicated their attempt to run the West Bank and deal with settler encroachment. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:21 - Oct 22 with 4661 views | Guthrum |
Because everything in the media has to be simplistic and binary. They are chasing an audience, not discussing the finer points of an issue. | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:27 - Oct 22 with 4623 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:19 - Oct 22 by Guthrum |
He is presumably from the Palestinian Authority and therefore Fatah. They utterly hate Hamas.
The October 7th attacks have severely complicated their attempt to run the West Bank and deal with settler encroachment. |
Israeli attack on West Bank now. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:41 - Oct 22 with 4576 views | DJR |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:21 - Oct 22 by Guthrum |
Because everything in the media has to be simplistic and binary. They are chasing an audience, not discussing the finer points of an issue. |
Things are always more nuanced than the media would have it, and they certainly aren't interested in taking a balanced view.
The following from the UN General Secretary in Cairo yesterday reflects my view, but it is not a view that is currently being given much of an airing in the UK media, and no politician in a position of power in either main party would echo this.
"Excellencies,
Let’s be clear.
The grievances of the Palestinian people are legitimate and long.
We cannot and must not ignore the wider context for these tragic events: the long-standing conflict and 56 years of occupation with no end in sight.
But nothing can justify the reprehensible assault by Hamas that terrorized Israeli civilians.
And those abhorrent attacks can never justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
International humanitarian law – including the Geneva conventions – must be upheld.
That includes protecting civilians and not attacking hospitals, schools and UN premises that are currently sheltering half a million people.
Excellencies,
Our near-term goals must be clear:
Immediate, unrestricted and sustained humanitarian aid for besieged civilians in Gaza.
Immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.
And immediate and dedicated efforts to prevent the spread of violence which is increasing the risk of spillover.
To advance all these efforts, I appeal for a humanitarian ceasefire now.
Excellencies,
Our sustained collective efforts and resources have never been needed more.
As we focus on ending the bloodshed, we cannot lose sight of the only realistic foundation for a true peace and stability: a two-State solution.
Israelis must see their legitimate needs for security materialised, and Palestinians must see their legitimate aspirations for an independent State realized, in line with United Nations resolutions, international law and previous agreements.
The time has come for action.
Action to end this godawful nightmare.
Action to build a future worthy of the dreams of the children of Palestine, Israel, the region and our world." [Post edited 22 Oct 2023 11:45]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:44 - Oct 22 with 4551 views | Ryorry |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:59 - Oct 22 with 4480 views | Radlett_blue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:41 - Oct 22 by DJR |
Things are always more nuanced than the media would have it, and they certainly aren't interested in taking a balanced view.
The following from the UN General Secretary in Cairo yesterday reflects my view, but it is not a view that is currently being given much of an airing in the UK media, and no politician in a position of power in either main party would echo this.
"Excellencies,
Let’s be clear.
The grievances of the Palestinian people are legitimate and long.
We cannot and must not ignore the wider context for these tragic events: the long-standing conflict and 56 years of occupation with no end in sight.
But nothing can justify the reprehensible assault by Hamas that terrorized Israeli civilians.
And those abhorrent attacks can never justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
International humanitarian law – including the Geneva conventions – must be upheld.
That includes protecting civilians and not attacking hospitals, schools and UN premises that are currently sheltering half a million people.
Excellencies,
Our near-term goals must be clear:
Immediate, unrestricted and sustained humanitarian aid for besieged civilians in Gaza.
Immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.
And immediate and dedicated efforts to prevent the spread of violence which is increasing the risk of spillover.
To advance all these efforts, I appeal for a humanitarian ceasefire now.
Excellencies,
Our sustained collective efforts and resources have never been needed more.
As we focus on ending the bloodshed, we cannot lose sight of the only realistic foundation for a true peace and stability: a two-State solution.
Israelis must see their legitimate needs for security materialised, and Palestinians must see their legitimate aspirations for an independent State realized, in line with United Nations resolutions, international law and previous agreements.
The time has come for action.
Action to end this godawful nightmare.
Action to build a future worthy of the dreams of the children of Palestine, Israel, the region and our world." [Post edited 22 Oct 2023 11:45]
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The UN has been making resolutions about Palestine for umpteen years. Well intentioned no doubt, but without the support of the USA and others, nothing is going to happen. There have been 2 near misses on trying to find a workable 2 state solution, but even if one of those had been agreed, I very much doubt that the Israelis & Palestinians would have lived peacefully next door to each other. After the recent atrocities & escalation, a 2 state solution is further away than ever & Israel ultimately faces the dilemma of who is to govern Gaza & its 2m residents?
1. Hamas
2. Israel
3. Fatah
4. some international co-operative.
none of these seem appealing or viable options. | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 12:13 - Oct 22 with 4426 views | DJR |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:59 - Oct 22 by Radlett_blue |
The UN has been making resolutions about Palestine for umpteen years. Well intentioned no doubt, but without the support of the USA and others, nothing is going to happen. There have been 2 near misses on trying to find a workable 2 state solution, but even if one of those had been agreed, I very much doubt that the Israelis & Palestinians would have lived peacefully next door to each other. After the recent atrocities & escalation, a 2 state solution is further away than ever & Israel ultimately faces the dilemma of who is to govern Gaza & its 2m residents?
1. Hamas
2. Israel
3. Fatah
4. some international co-operative.
none of these seem appealing or viable options. |
Of course, there would have been hurdles, but Israel doesn't appear to have been interested in the two state solution for years, and perhaps the final nail in the coffin was Trump's movement of the US embassy to Jerusalem in breach of international law and UN resolutions, which effectively destroyed any hope of a two state solution, [Post edited 22 Oct 2023 12:30]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 14:17 - Oct 22 with 4281 views | Guthrum |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:27 - Oct 22 by Pinewoodblue |
Israeli attack on West Bank now. |
Tho that was a single strike on a compound allegedly used by Hamas/Islamic Jihad, not a campaign against Fatah/Palestinian Authority facilities. | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 17:07 - Oct 22 with 4133 views | Whos_blue |
I didn't see the original interview, so don't know if there's any context to consider, but these comments associated by the ex Israeli PM seem unnecessarily heartless.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67185260?ns_mchannel=social&am
As much as the barbaric attack by Hamas was callous and disgusting, it feels as if the ongoing military response is spiralling ever closer to a similar description.
How on earth is this going to end? |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 19:47 - Oct 22 with 4007 views | WeWereZombies |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 17:07 - Oct 22 by Whos_blue |
I didn't see the original interview, so don't know if there's any context to consider, but these comments associated by the ex Israeli PM seem unnecessarily heartless.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67185260?ns_mchannel=social&am
As much as the barbaric attack by Hamas was callous and disgusting, it feels as if the ongoing military response is spiralling ever closer to a similar description.
How on earth is this going to end? |
Just a note on linking the BBC live feed, because it updates regularly the news item referred can get pushed down the page by the time people get to pick up on a post (the one you are talking about is now on the second page) so I have taken to copy and pasting the relevant:
'Naftali Bennett, former Prime Minister of Israel, says the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is "none of our business".
Israel controls the air space over Gaza and its shoreline, and strictly controls the movement of people and goods.
"The world can come and help the Gazans, that's none of our business," he told Victoria Derbyshire during the Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg programme, when asked if Israel will allow more aid into Gaza.
He says humanitarian action must be reciprocal, citing hostages being held by Hamas.
Derbyshire puts it to Bennett it is Israel's business as it must demonstrate its fight is with Hamas rather than the Palestinian people.
"We are not responsible for Gaza like you are not responsible for France," he responded.
"If others want to take care of the Gazans, that's theirs to do."
Pressed further that Israel does control Gaza's borders, Bennett said Israel's notice to Gazans to move to the south was evidence of humanitarian action' | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 20:39 - Oct 22 with 3958 views | brogansnose |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 19:47 - Oct 22 by WeWereZombies |
Just a note on linking the BBC live feed, because it updates regularly the news item referred can get pushed down the page by the time people get to pick up on a post (the one you are talking about is now on the second page) so I have taken to copy and pasting the relevant:
'Naftali Bennett, former Prime Minister of Israel, says the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is "none of our business".
Israel controls the air space over Gaza and its shoreline, and strictly controls the movement of people and goods.
"The world can come and help the Gazans, that's none of our business," he told Victoria Derbyshire during the Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg programme, when asked if Israel will allow more aid into Gaza.
He says humanitarian action must be reciprocal, citing hostages being held by Hamas.
Derbyshire puts it to Bennett it is Israel's business as it must demonstrate its fight is with Hamas rather than the Palestinian people.
"We are not responsible for Gaza like you are not responsible for France," he responded.
"If others want to take care of the Gazans, that's theirs to do."
Pressed further that Israel does control Gaza's borders, Bennett said Israel's notice to Gazans to move to the south was evidence of humanitarian action' |
It would have been much easier for him and Victoria to just say that he didn't give a toss. |  | | |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 20:56 - Oct 22 with 3901 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:44 - Oct 22 by Ryorry |
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The US have been quite heavy handed in dealing with similar showings of support over there. Depressing stuff. It gives the impression the authorities aren’t interested in a peaceful solution and don’t value life. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 21:05 - Oct 22 with 3878 views | Swansea_Blue |
Haven’t they both just got a burning hatred and want to wipe the other side off the map? It doesn’t seem like there’s any strategy involved. | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 22:15 - Oct 22 with 3809 views | DJR |
Here are extracts from yesterday's WHO report on Gaza.
HEATH NEEDS
•High incidence of casualties and fatalities as the result of bombardment. MoH reported that its daily use of medical consumables during the war is equivalent to its monthly consumption before the war.
• 350,000 non communicable diseases patients, obstetric care, patients in need for kidney dialysis, cardiovascular diseases, and communicable diseases.
• 50,000 pregnant women, with 5,500 deliveries each month.
• 130 premature infants are dependent on incubators, which require electricity to keep them alive.
• An imminent public health catastrophe looms in the setting of mass displacement, overcrowding of shelters, damage to the water and sanitation infrastructure.
• Mental health toll affecting all facing continuing bombardment and siege.
HEALTH SERVICES FUNCTIONING AFFECTED
o 65% (47/72) of primary care facilities not functioning; a higher proportion not functioning in North Gaza (92%) and Gaza City (79%)
o 20% (7/35) of hospitals not functioning; 103% of hospital beds currently occupied in the 8 major hospitals. Hospitals are adding beds in installed tents, outpatient departments, corridors, and any available space.
o Limited fuel supplies affecting ambulance functioning and access to the sick and injured.
o Medical equipment increasingly non-functional, affecting diagnostic and treatment capacities
o 55% of the Health Cluster partners stopped or limited operations because of the insecurity and mass infrastructure damage which makes it difficult to move.
o Routine surveillance systems including for communicable diseases are not currently functioning, hampering effective detection, analysis, and response to public health threats.
EVACUATION ORDERS AFFECTING THE NORTH OF THE GAZA STRIP
o The 23 hospitals in Gaza City and North Gaza have been issued evacuation orders. Due to damage or other limitations, only 18 of those hospitals are currently functional. Evacuation orders would impactover 2000 patients and is not possible: bed capacity in the south (1/3 of that in the north) cannot accommodate; there is insufficient ambulance capacity and roads have been damaged. The lives of patients would be at immediate risk.
o Most dialysis capacity (80%) located in the North Gaza and Gaza City, in the area ordered for evacuation.
ATTACKS ON HEALTH FACILITIES
• 62 attacks on health care facilities in the Gaza Strip have resulted in 16 fatalities of health care workers and 28 injuries of health workers on duty. The attacks have affected 29 health care facilities (including 19 hospitals damaged) and 23 ambulances.
And here are further effects.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2023 22:40]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 23:04 - Oct 22 with 3755 views | WeWereZombies |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 20:39 - Oct 22 by brogansnose |
It would have been much easier for him and Victoria to just say that he didn't give a toss. |
Easier but the off handedness of the response would not have emerged so clearly, one of the more thorough interviewers, Victoria Derbyshire. And there was worse to follow:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/israel-palestine-bbc-naftali-bennett-b2433
'Mr Bennett accused the corporation of “taking the side” of Gaza.
“From the very beginning of this interview, you are asking me about them. It seems that you care little about our side,” he said, as Ms Derbyshire denied the claim.
“You care only about one side, but that is the BBC way. Let me tell you something, we are here protecting you, we don’t need your protection.
“The BBC is lacking moral clarity... shame on you.”' | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 00:44 - Oct 23 with 3686 views | Whos_blue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 23:04 - Oct 22 by WeWereZombies |
Easier but the off handedness of the response would not have emerged so clearly, one of the more thorough interviewers, Victoria Derbyshire. And there was worse to follow:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/israel-palestine-bbc-naftali-bennett-b2433
'Mr Bennett accused the corporation of “taking the side” of Gaza.
“From the very beginning of this interview, you are asking me about them. It seems that you care little about our side,” he said, as Ms Derbyshire denied the claim.
“You care only about one side, but that is the BBC way. Let me tell you something, we are here protecting you, we don’t need your protection.
“The BBC is lacking moral clarity... shame on you.”' |
There's been so much coverage now it's hard to remember the exact narratives, but if I recall correctly the BBC's early coverage was arguably weighted (and with some justification might I add) towards the initial atrocity carried out by Hamas.
No one is forgetting that, but it's right that a portion of the attention must now turn to the humanitarian disaster that's unfolding in Gaza.
Another post here tonight details that Israel are going to release footage of the barbarism of the initial Hamas attack.
Maybe there is a feeling in Israel that they're being unfairly held to account for the current Gazan issue and they want to remind the world what they they endured on 7/10. | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 00:58 - Oct 23 with 3673 views | matteoblue |
It's odd why there's such a big focus on Gaza, when there are so many countries with much suffering. I do wonder why that is. |  |
| We are Premier League, say we are Premier League! |
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